Analyzing Dubas's Performance - III

[Dale Gribble]

Dale Tallon is available. So are Gallant and Boudreau. Shanny needs to wake up or he risks being taken down along with his boy wonder.

As he should. While I'm glad the Shanahan understood that the Leafs history was important (honouring former players with jersey retirements, returning to the old logo etc.), but the team Dubas is building is the one Shanahan wants as well, so I'm of the opinion that the team's on ice decline is as much on Shanahan as it is Dubas. And for that, he should be shown the door.

As for Dubas, we'll see what he does this offseason, but with a flat cap and quite few a bad contracts (like most teams), I don't see a lot of improvement. Hopefully MLSE wakes up after another declining season (if it happens).

 

[ToneDog]

I don't know. I think the Islanders are having great short term success but the way Lou's structured things, I don't see a lot of growth potential and there are a lot of problems on the horizon for them capwise. I could be wrong and they could just win this year's cup, so who cares, but I don't see it.

They have Dobson and Walhstrom. I don't know what other elite prospects they have but I'll bet Lou navigates their cap issues much better than you know who navigated ours.

 

[ToneDog]

what about Dale Tallon's tenure in Florida makes you want to hire him

They forced him to fire Gallant and hire their own coach and it blew up in their faces. Tallon has a proven track record, unlike what we have here. I don't expect Shanny to make a move. Afterall he fired a HOL coach and GM and gave the keys to two rookies. How is that working out ?

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Dubas' recipe has produced a top heavy team of haves and have nots. It's like he's built an NBA starting five and it was telling that Keefe was going the route of the stacked big line in the elimination game vs CBJ. I don't really see this as a viable structure for a playoff hockey team to have a small handful of big names and a "bench" of anonymous, interchangeable parts, because it ignores so much about playoff hockey culture: next man up mentality, guys stepping up in expanded roles, the chemistry of many units finding their rhythm and groove, team unity, etc.

From an MLSE board perspective, it's must be kind of weird to see the Toronto Raptors succeed by building a deep bench and almost a hockey team mentality, while the hockey team is run like a basketball team with no depth.

The Raptors are a cohesive team playing beyond the talent level of the individual players.

The Raptors also have an incredible executive in Masai Ujiri, who is excellent at talent assessment and even better at team building.

 

[TheDoldrums]

They forced him to fire Galant and hire their own coach and it blew up in their faces. Tallon has a proven track record, unlike what we have here.

A proven track record of what? He was hired by Florida 10 years ago. Has the last decade of Florida Panthers hockey been something you want to emulate? Most people think we're bad defensively, Florida has been noticeably worse.

 

[ToneDog]

As he should. While I'm glad the Shanahan understood that the Leafs history was important (honouring former players with jersey retirements, returning to the old logo etc.), but the team Dubas is building is the one Shanahan wants as well, so I'm of the opinion that the team's on ice decline is as much on Shanahan as it is Dubas. And for that, he should be shown the door.

As for Dubas, we'll see what he does this offseason, but with a flat cthirst of the big 3 for moap and quite few a bad contracts (like most teams), I don't see a lot of improvement. Hopefully MLSE wakes up after another declining season (if it happens).

Dubas has painted himself into a corner satisfying the thirst for money of the big 3. Now be can barely make a move without having cap impications. He spent the majority of last summer making room for the greediest of the 3 and iced a roster that was not playoff capable. We are going to see the same manouvering this summer. Our only hope is that the greedy 3 start repaying the GM they bent over backwards.

 

[ToneDog]

A proven track record of what? He was hired by Florida 10 years ago. Has the last decade of Florida Panthers hockey been something you want to emulate? Most people think we're bad defensively, Florida has been noticeably worse.

Imagine how successful Dubas would be in charge of a budget team. The Panthers gave away Marchesseault and Rielly Smith to Vegas for financial reasons. The dumped Trocchek before the TDL this year. Are you forgetting Tallon's time in Chicago ?? He pretty much was responsible for building the foundation to 3 SC winners.

 

[Stephen]

They have Dobson and Walhstrom. I don't know what other elite prospects they have but I'll bet Lou navigates their cap issues much better than you know who navigated ours.

Not really. They just traded a first for J-G Pageau, have Pageau, Bailey, Eberle, Varlamov all signed for another 3 years minimum, have a toxic contract in Andrew Ladd who may or may not be an LTIR guy for the next 3 seasons, $6.5 million on Komarov and Cizikas and $6 million on 36 year old Boychuk for another 2 years, $13 million tied up in Brock Nelson (28) and Anders Lee (30) until 2024-25 (I'll let someone else debate whether or not they want that). Plus Mathew Barzal and Anthony Beauvillier are not signed to long term deals.

It's looking good now, but I don't like that recipe at all.

 

[Stephen]

Imagine how successful Dubas would be in charge of a budget team. Are you forgetting Tallon's time in Chicago ?? He pretty much was responsible for building the foundation to 3 SC winners.

Tallon hasn't built anything good in a long time. If Doug Armstrong gets canned in St. Louis, I'd give him a call.

 

[ToneDog]

Tallon hasn't built anything good in a long time. If Doug Armstrong gets canned in St. Louis, I'd give him a call.

They passed on Armstrong when the hired Burke. We better be in a position that we have our GM when Armstrong is let go.

 

[The CyNick]

My analysis is Dubas has been a poor GM. Was handed a 105pt team turned it into a team on pace for 95pts that can't qualify for the first round of the playoffs.

My hope is he's removed before he does further long term damage.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Imagine how successful Dubas would be in charge of a budget team. Are you forgetting Tallon's time in Chicago ?? He pretty much was responsible for building the foundation to 3 SC winners.

Florida spent to the cap this year, they weren't a budget team. Not when they're paying Bob $10 million a year until forever.

We've seen him run a franchise for the last decade to terrible results. That has more relevance to his current abilities than what he did with the Blackhawks.

 

[Gabriel426]

Not really. They just traded a first for J-G Pageau, have Pageau, Bailey, Eberle, Varlamov all signed for another 3 years minimum, have a toxic contract in Andrew Ladd who may or may not be an LTIR guy for the next 3 seasons, $6.5 million on Komarov and Cizikas and $6 million on 36 year old Boychuk for another 2 years, $13 million tied up in Brock Nelson (28) and Anders Lee (30) until 2024-25 (I'll let someone else debate whether or not they want that). Plus Mathew Barzal and Anthony Beauvillier are not signed to long term deals.

It's looking good now, but I don't like that recipe at all.

I am seeing your point but if the Islanders win the Cup this year, it won’t matter.
Leafs is in win now mode, Dubas should not think about a few yrs down the line the team will be/get there....The Leafs should be there now.

 

[ToneDog]

Florida spent to the cap this year, they weren't a budget team. Not when they're paying Bob $10 million a year until forever.

We've seen him run a franchise for the last decade to terrible results. That has more relevance to his current abilities than what he did with the Blackhawks.

Can't diagree that his time in Florida has been great. What I do not know is how much upper management factored into decisions that were made.

 

[Stephen]

I am seeing your point but if the Islanders win the Cup this year, it won’t matter.
Leafs is in win now mode, Dubas should not think about a few yrs down the line the team will be/get there....The Leafs should be there now.

I don't think they'll win the cup, but stranger things have happened. They remind me of those moderately successful Leafs teams in the 90s. Good for a few rounds (which is not nothing) but don't have the championship gear.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

They forced him to fire Gallant and hire their own coach and it blew up in their faces. Tallon has a proven track record, unlike what we have here. I don't expect Shanny to make a move. Afterall he fired a HOL coach and GM and gave the keys to two rookies. How is that working out ?

Tallon as Vice President of Hockey Operations with Dubas reporting to him might work.

I would then have Dubas report to Tallon who can help with decisions and mentor Dubas.

It would give Shanahan another experienced executive to add to their management team. It allows Dubas to stay in his position and save face for Shanahan.

A proven track record of what? He was hired by Florida 10 years ago. Has the last decade of Florida Panthers hockey been something you want to emulate? Most people think we're bad defensively, Florida has been noticeably worse.

I don’t think Florida’s ownership situation made Tallon’s job easy.

Tallon was no doubt instrumental in building the Hawks into Stanley Cup champions.

 

[Superstar]

The entire reason for playing the game is to have playoff success. We aren’t playing for the Corsi Cup - we’re playing for the Stanley Cup.

The core is in their prime now. If they aren’t, then why the hell are they being paid so much money? In two more years, Matthews will be two years away from free agency. The Leafs don’t have two seasons to waste with this group while Dubas gets on the job training and becomes an upper echelon GM.

Letting Lamoriello go to keep Dubas and make him GM was a colossal mistake by Shanahan.

The performance and results of each of the two respective teams since that choice was made speaks for itself.

There are too many Dubas apologists on this site.

Marner confessed he wasn't even engaged in game 1...think about that one...that's an amateur speaking...why the heck did he take so much money from the Leafs then? He made USD $16,000,000 this year to not be engaged...that's inexcusable...what a pro, eh? Maybe a pro con artist. And then Dubas called Marner critics idiotic. Who really is the idiot here?

 

[Gabriel426]

I don't think they'll win the cup, but stranger things have happened. They remind me of those moderately successful Leafs teams in the 90s. Good for a few rounds (which is not nothing) but don't have the championship gear.

Stranger things have happened.
I don’t think the Habs in 93 got that Championship gear but Paul DiPietro played his best hockey in his life and they won.
I think a lot of teams and players don’t seem to have that Championship DNA till they win it.

 

[Superstar]

There was no reason to sign Holl for 2 x 3 deal. You should only pay 1.25-1.4 for your 5th guy. The problem is that Dubler Dubas sees him as #4 which he isn't.

Dubas probably thinks Holl is a top 4 RHD and got him for $2 million per...what a deal! Market inefficiencies that other GMs aren't smart enough to exploit? Check!

 

[LeafsNation75]

They have Dobson and Walhstrom. I don't know what other elite prospects they have but I'll bet Lou navigates their cap issues much better than you know who navigated ours.

Since Lou has taken over the Islanders some of the main contracts he's given out is $7 million AAV for 7 years to Anders Lee and $5 million AAV for 6 years to Jean-Gabriel Pageau. Never mind that he traded a 2020 1st and 2nd round picks for Pageau and gave him that contract extension right away.

We also don't know what Matt Barzal will want in his new contract and he could want similar money that Marner got for these reasons. They were both in the same draft class and he's got a Calder Trophy on his resume, which Marner did not have.

 

[ToneDog]

Since Lou has taken over the Islanders some of the main contracts he's given out is $7 million AAV for 7 years to Anders Lee and $5 million AAV for 6 years to Jean-Gabriel Pageau. Never mind that he traded a 2020 1st and 2nd round picks for Pageau and gave him that contract extension right away.

We also don't know what Matt Barzal will want in his new contract and he could want similar money that Marner got for these reasons. They were both in the same draft class and he's got a Calder Trophy on his resume, which Marner did not have.

Cannot see Barzal getting close to what Marner got, especially from Lou. The Aho, Point and Ranta contracts were not enough to convinve the the pro Dubas fans that Dubas screwed up the Marner deal. Perhaps the Barzal contract will add an exclamation mark to that.

At the end of the day, if you have cap space, use it. I use results to gage Lou. I have no idea what the Isles cap issues will be in the future (and to tell you truth I do not care) but I have confidence Lou will navigate around it.

 

[KingJoffrey]

Since Lou has taken over the Islanders some of the main contracts he's given out is $7 million AAV for 7 years to Anders Lee and $5 million AAV for 6 years to Jean-Gabriel Pageau. Never mind that he traded a 2020 1st and 2nd round picks for Pageau and gave him that contract extension right away.

We also don't know what Matt Barzal will want in his new contract and he could want similar money that Marner got for these reasons. They were both in the same draft class and he's got a Calder Trophy on his resume, which Marner did not have.

Lee scored 34 and 40 goals. People here are praising William Nylander for poorer results. Add to that Lee is physical 6'3 215 monster. Every team would pick Lee over soft William.

Pageau is a great utility player who can play top 6 role. Again what Leafs lack. Pageau is basically less physical version of Kadri.

 

[Superstar]

Since Lou has taken over the Islanders some of the main contracts he's given out is $7 million AAV for 7 years to Anders Lee and $5 million AAV for 6 years to Jean-Gabriel Pageau. Never mind that he traded a 2020 1st and 2nd round picks for Pageau and gave him that contract extension right away.

We also don't know what Matt Barzal will want in his new contract and he could want similar money that Marner got for these reasons. They were both in the same draft class and he's got a Calder Trophy on his resume, which Marner did not have.

The Isles are winning since Lou got there...it's about building a team, not signing a collection of expensive forwards like Dubas is doing...Lee's contract is not crippling and he's a solid and big player...you could use that $4.9 million dollar difference you pay Marner to sign a solid top 4 dman. And Pageau's contract looks like a bargain compared to what Dubas is paying Johnsson and Kapanen to do...Pageau is locked-in through his prime years, meanwhile I'm not sure what Johnsson and Kapanen are...if Dubas wasn't so dead-set on overpaying Marner (ie. just bridge him reasonably) to a longer term, he literally wouldn't have to move Marleau (and the Leafs' costly 1st round pick)...he could have bridged Marner, trade Johnsson and kept Marleau and the 1st.

 

[93LEAFS]

I may be mis-remembering but Holl was rarely used on the bottom pair though.

Because two different coaches deemed the core piece of a trade where we sent a cheap #2 center wasn't capable of playing in the top 4 with either Muzzin or Rielly. Pretty telling at full health, both Babs and Keefe thought Barrie was best suited on the 3rd pairing, to the extent Holl and Ceci played above him. Two guys who are bottom pairing D themselves.

 

[ToneDog]

The Isles are winning since Lou got there...it's about building a team, not signing a collection of expensive forwards like Dubas is doing...Lee's contract is not crippling and he's a solid and big player...you could use that $4.9 million dollar difference you pay Marner to sign a solid top 4 dman. And Pageau's contract looks like a bargain compared to what Dubas is paying Johnsson and Kapanen to do...Pageau is locked-in through his prime years, meanwhile I'm not sure what Johnsson and Kapanen are...if Dubas wasn't so dead-set on overpaying Marner (ie. just bridge him reasonably) to a longer term, he literally wouldn't have to move Marleau (and the Leafs' costly 1st round pick)...he could have bridged Marner, trade Johnsson and kept Marleau and the 1st.

Hard to convince Dubas' followers but it is a results based league. Lou has had results on the Island since he took over. Dubas has been a disaster here. Clear as day to me and numerous posters here. It is the dumb dumbs at MLSEL who are in denial and continue with the charade.