An idea to remove the cap advantage for no tax states

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Golden_Jet

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My comment was more directed at any proposal being met with "but the 50-50 split!" The 50-50 split is the first thing I want to see go. It's a policy failure. The second COVID put real-world pressure on the revenue, the cap system couldn't keep up with market salaries.

Shocking no fans in building, couldn’t keep up with market salaries.
Same thing happened in NBA, not sure about other leagues. Especially when players want full salaries, despite not playing a full season.
 
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norrisnick

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No, but I don't understand the connection you're making there.
Spending money you don't have is a fool's errand.

The NHL players get the biggest slice of the pie relative to the other major leagues along with guaranteed contracts. Like... what else can they reasonably expect to get? Especially when you apparently think they have a completely inept PA.
 

Machinehead

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Spending money you don't have is a fool's errand.

The NHL players get the biggest slice of the pie relative to the other major leagues along with guaranteed contracts. Like... what else can they reasonably expect to get? Especially when you apparently think they have a completely inept PA.
Idk a franchise tag would be nice :dunno:
 

norrisnick

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My comment was more directed at any proposal being met with "but the 50-50 split!" The 50-50 split is the first thing I want to see go. It's a policy failure. The second COVID put real-world pressure on the revenue, the cap system couldn't keep up with market salaries.

I get the business side of it. I get why the owners want the revenue split and why the players like guaranteed contracts. Cool. I feel that every other league has done a way better job of also implementing policy geared towards competition, in addition to business. The NHL hasn't done that at all. They made a business policy and told every GM to just build their team around it. I refuse to believe that can't change at all, and I'm not saying it's easy.
What do you think should be the "market salaries" in a league with next to no revenue? They certainly shouldn't be growing. That's the maxed out credit cards again. Spending money you don't have just so you can say you spent money is a massive policy failure.
 

Beukeboom Fan

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Then don't ever post in a roster building thread ever again LMAO
Might be misunderstanding you, but why? Building a theoretical roster under the current CBA that is cap compliant is pretty much a requirement, correct? Responding to things ignoring the cap because you don't like the cap pretty much defeats the purpose of being on this hockey board. Or did I totally misread your original post?

EDIT: Read your 2nd post again and understand better. I agree with 90% of what you state, but have a fundamentally different perspective. The NHL owners showed their resolve to get the current system in place by losing a year and a half of hockey. They are not going to piss that away by creating a system where the players no longer bail out the owners. You can not like that - but ignoring the fact that the system that is currently in place and is HIGHLY unlikely to change in it's "core" form because it limits your team to take advantage of it's market size/strength to create a situation where it has a significant competitive advantage.
 
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Machinehead

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What do you think should be the "market salaries" in a league with next to no revenue? They certainly shouldn't be growing. That's the maxed out credit cards again. Spending money you don't have just so you can say you spent money is a massive policy failure.
All leagues went through the pandemic. There's only one where free agency became the most boring day on the caldendar.
Can you make up your mind on whether you're talking about things players want and things that owners might want? What the fans want is completely irrelevant here.
Why?

Every other league has competition-based rules in the CBA in addition to the business side of it.
 

Machinehead

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Might be misunderstanding you, but why? Building a theoretical roster under the current CBA that is cap compliant is pretty much a requirement, correct? Responding to things ignoring the cap because you don't like the cap pretty much defeats the purpose of being on this hockey board. Or did I totally misread your original post?
You criticized me because what I'm saying "wouldn't work practically in the real world."

99.9% of the posts on this site don't happen in the real world.
 

norrisnick

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Idk a franchise tag would be nice :dunno:

If the PA doesn't want changes, then that's a them problem. They're playing under the most aggressive salary supression in major sports.

Going back to this point, for just as second. Explain the one in light of the other. What is the franchise tag besides the most aggressive means to suppress salary that exists? What? You were successful and want to hit the market and set a new standard for your position? Sorry, nope, you're stuck with an average of what already exists...

All leagues went through the pandemic. There's only one where free agency became the most boring day on the caldendar.

Why?

Every other league has competition-based rules in the CBA in addition to the business side of it.
Go buy a "Be a GM" game and sim fantasy redrafts or something. Adding a chaos mode to the NHL because you're bored in the offseason is silly.
 

Ford Prefect

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A lot of talk lately about certain teams without income tax having an unfair advantage with the salary cap as they're able to sign players at a discount. Not much talk about how to fix it but I have one fairly simple idea (in theory). Fans of these teams won't like it but how about no tax teams don't get the cap increase that is going to be taking place over the next few seasons? It's expected to go past $100 million in 3 seasons or so, well how about no tax teams stay at $88 million or at least have a reduced cap increase compared to every other team.

Eventually the league settles on a certain percentage, whether it's 15-25% less than other teams - at least this advantage will be taken away from them. It might be complicated to have two different salary caps but perhaps its worth a try. Thoughts?
I disagree with the whole premise that it is an unfair advantage. Do the Rangers have any problems attracting free agents? The Bruins? Red Wings? Flyers? Blackhawks? The question really is who has difficulty attracting free agents. Canadian based teams perhaps, but the Canucks have been able to do it, as have the Leafs. The Alberta teams, Jets, Sens, and Habs certainly have had struggles. Minnesota (outside of the Parise/Suter megadeals) have not been major players, nor have Buffalo.

There are certain characteristics these teams all share.and some that are unique to their own markets. They all share shitty climates during the dead of winter. Would you rather go to work in three layers of clothing hoping that your car doesn't go into a ditch or in your sports car wearing shorts and sandals (and go golfing after work)? Buffalo has made losing and disappointment an art form. Alberta and Winnipeg offer little in terms of extracurriculars and we all know the lack of privacy in Montreal. And until Edmonton the last few years, none were legitimate consistent Stanley Cup contenders.

Aside from looking at the drawbacks, what benefits do these clubs have? Whatever you lose in taxes, you will more than make up for in endorsement deals (especially in Canadian markets). Some clubs like Montreal have the resources to heavily front-load contracts and pay in signing bonuses instead of salary. A 5 million AAV contract is worth more if you collect most of it in the first half of the contract.

Even the tax issue itself isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. While they may pay less in state income tax they may pay more in municipal tax (after all, infrastructure and services need to be paid somehow). And even though they're based in tax-exempt states, they still pay state/provincial taxes when on the road playing away games. While there are tax-sharing agreements between the jurisdictions, Canadian athletes still file federal returns on their income regardless where it's earned. I don't know if that's also true provincially. There are specialists employed by athletes to ensure they pay the least amount possible tax possible.

How would you propose to tackle the advantages that large resource teams have to front-load contracts? Or to offset what players lose in alternate revenue streams? At the end of the day there are a myriad of reasons, many of which have been mentioned already, that go into a free agent's decision. You're cherry picking one advantage and think it's an epidemic when it really isn't.
 
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Machinehead

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Going back to this point, for just as second. Explain the one in light of the other. What is the franchise tag besides the most aggressive means to suppress salary that exists? What? You were successful and want to hit the market and set a new standard for your position? Sorry, nope, you're stuck with an average of what already exists...
It doesn't have to be structured the same way it is in the NBA. I just think it would be nice to have one homegrown player that doesn't count or is discounted towards the cap. You could work out the logistics of that to be player-friendly.

That's my whole point. These discussions are very limited by what already exists. Any idea is patronized away because it isn't already a thing.
 

norrisnick

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It doesn't have to be structured the same way it is in the NBA. I just think it would be nice to have one homegrown player that doesn't count or is discounted towards the cap. You could work out the logistics of that to be player-friendly.

That's my whole point. These discussions are very limited by what already exists. Any idea is patronized away because it isn't already a thing.
There is no way to make cap discounts work in a rigid percentage split without screwing the players.

Ok, guys. We slapped the franchise tag on Igor so we can give him the $14M he wants. Unfortunately that means the escrow with-holdings are going to be a bit heavier this year. But we got to keep our guy!! Yay, right?
 

Machinehead

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There is no way to make cap discounts work in a rigid percentage split without screwing the players.

Ok, guys. We slapped the franchise tag on Igor so we can give him the $14M he wants. Unfortunately that means the escrow with-holdings are going to be a bit heavier this year. But we got to keep our guy!! Yay, right?
I still wouldn't give it to Igor. Jesus Christ. I'm nauseous now.
 

Beukeboom Fan

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You criticized me because what I'm saying "wouldn't work practically in the real world."

99.9% of the posts on this site don't happen in the real world.
I edited my post, because I believe we're essentially in agreement that the tax situation is incredibly complex and any simple "local rate adjustment" is doomed to fail based on the underlying differences in players situation and taxes.
 

Golden_Jet

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It doesn't have to be structured the same way it is in the NBA. I just think it would be nice to have one homegrown player that doesn't count or is discounted towards the cap. You could work out the logistics of that to be player-friendly.

That's my whole point. These discussions are very limited by what already exists. Any idea is patronized away because it isn't already a thing.
Explain how the franchise tag works in the NBA.
In the NFL it counts against the cap, and the players would like to get rid of it.
 

Machinehead

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I edited my post, because I believe we're essentially in agreement that the tax situation is incredibly complex and any simple "local rate adjustment" is doomed to fail based on the underlying differences in players situation and taxes.
No, I get it. It's probably all pie in the sky.

I just think the NHL could possibly add policies in the future more geared towards balancing competition. Nobody wants to get rid of the cap but it feels too rigid at the moment. I never like to just throw my hands up and say "well that's why we have."

The tax thing is a whole beast because it goes outside of league policy.
 
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Jacob

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Who gives a f*** about the athletes? We should be passing laws to remove income tax from all of us who pay it.

Mine is more than my f***ing mortgage
Athletes and celebrities are our betters. They will be remembered, not us.
 

nhlfan9191

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Why did teams in those areas not start becoming more successful earlier in the cap era if it's such a huge advantage? Why did it take 12-13 years? Also, if it's a huge advantage, shouldn't it translate into on-ice success in a more tangible way than your (incorrect) assertion that every final over the past 7 or 8 years has had a team in a state with no income tax?
You’re arguing semantics with my “incorrect assertion.” St. Louis/Boston was the only time it didn’t happen in the last 8 seasons. Florida 2x, Tampa 3x, Vegas 2x, Dallas 1x, Nashvillle 1x. You can’t convince me that’s a coincidence.
 

Machinehead

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Explain how the franchise tag works in the NBA.
In the NFL it counts against the cap, and the players would like to get rid of it.
Basically, if you re-sign a player that already plays for you, you're allowed to offer him up to 175% of his pervious salary, and if that's the money that puts you over the cap, you're allowed to go over the cap by that much, so it essentially "doesn't count."

So like, it is a limit, but with a hard cap, they would never be able to afford 175%. In that sense, it does work for the players. I can see why the players hate the franchise tag in the NFL. That's completely different. I'm using the concept of "franchising" a guy colloquially, to mean "homegrown discount."

The whole culture is different in the NBA. The cap floor is 90% of the cap ceiling. They literally force owners to spend on the roster. The NBA has way more of a "this is just a giant toy" culture whereas the NHL has more of a "I need to maximize every penny out of this" culture.

And I understand that to an extent with the overall lower revenues that the NHL generates, but at the same time, nobody who buys a hockey team is living paycheck to paycheck off of the hockey team.
 

Golden_Jet

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You’re arguing semantics with my “incorrect assertion.” St. Louis/Boston was the only time it didn’t happen in the last 8 seasons. Florida 2x, Tampa 3x, Vegas 2x, Dallas 1x, Nashvillle 1x. You can’t convince me that’s a coincidence.
Now do since the cap was instituted.
 
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JPT

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You’re arguing semantics with my “incorrect assertion.” St. Louis/Boston was the only time it didn’t happen in the last 8 seasons. Florida 2x, Tampa 3x, Vegas 2x, Dallas 1x, Nashvillle 1x. You can’t convince me that’s a coincidence.
It's not semantics. You were wrong. And you ignored most of my post. Why did it take so long for this supposedly huge advantage to take shape? If it's such a big advantage that it outweighs the advantages other markets have, shouldn't those teams have been able to build up their rosters much earlier? How is it so many teams in higher taxed areas have been able to go deep into the playoffs?

What you might not know is that we have already seen this argument attempted earlier in the thread. It's not convincing when challenged. You can't show that the current trend isn't part of the cyclical nature of sports, or due to better management on these teams, or any other potential reason that would show it to not be a coincidence (which no one argued anyway).
 

Space umpire

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I see what you’re trying to say but getting discounts on contracts in a cap league due to location is a huge advantage whereas having to pick the right staff even if your organization has money to blow is a separate thing. There’s a reason the last 7-8 years has had a non state tax team in the final. You couldn’t build a team like the Florida teams in Canada for example.
Please! While I was being facetious most of you are simply either being silly or just extremely uninformed.
It is not a huge advantage.
I’d wager that the difference in Matthews salary with the Leafs is well under $100,000 less than if he played for the Lightning.

Now tell me how many Leafs have very lucrative endorsement deals. I’m under the impression that a few earn mid 6 figures doing endorsements. That doesn’t happen in Miami or Tampa.

I asked this once before and nobody replied so I asked my only Canadian relative (my wife’s aunt) about her insurance cost.
She pays $1400 (Canadian) to insure a home she says is worth in the $500000 range.
My home on the east coast of Florida is worth roughly 550k to 600k and it costs me just under $15000 a year to insure it.
Players health coverage is taken from their checks monthly. Players in Canada pay 10% of what those in the states pay because your taxes help provide coverage.
In general public education sucks in Florida. Teachers have left in huge numbers and our clown of a governor is now wanting to fill the openings with untrained (unemployed) Military veterans. So add another 10k to 12k per year (per child) for the private school.

Many who live in “no tax” states have tried to tell you (all) for quite some time. Distant thunder has given up and now simply mocks all of you.
You’re wrong, you making excuses for piss poor management. It’s getting old.
 
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Golden_Jet

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Please! While I was being facetious most of you are simply either being silly or just extremely uninformed.
It is not a huge advantage.
I’d wager that the difference in Matthews salary with the Leafs is well under $100,000 less than if he played for the Lightning.

Now tell me how many Leafs have very lucrative endorsement deals. I’m under the impression that a few earn mid 6 figures doing endorsements. That doesn’t happen in Miami or Tampa.

I asked this once before and nobody replied so I asked my only Canadian relative (my wife’s aunt) about her insurance cost.
She pays $1400 (Canadian) to insure a home she says is worth in the $500000 range.
My home on the east coast of Florida is worth roughly 550k to 600k and it costs me just under $15000 a year to insure it.
Players health coverage is taken from their checks monthly. Players in Canada pay 10% of what those in the states pay because your taxes help provide coverage.
In general public education sucks in Florida. Teachers have left in huge numbers and our clown of a governor is now wanting to fill the openings with untrained (unemployed) Military veterans. So add another 10k to 12k per year (per child) for the private school.

Many who live in “no tax” states have tried to tell you (all) for quite some time. Distant thunder has given up and now simply mocks all of you.
You’re wrong, you making excuses for piss poor management. It’s getting old.
How much is your property tax on a 550-600k home.
Oof Insurance is a lot, hurricane coverage costs I guess.
 
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