An idea to remove the cap advantage for no tax states

[Beukeboom Fan]

To be fair though I highly doubt the players are living in Miami proper, or South Beach for that matter. It'll be more like Luongo and his family, living in Parkland. In Tampas situation, using Tampa is fair, they're going to generally be in South Tampa because of the distance/layout/traffic/other players and families.

The gap in real estate these days still exists, but it is both much smaller, and you have to deal with crazy Florida problems like accelerating property values driving property taxes higher, and dealing with the disaster that is homeowners insurance in Florida, which is honestly killing everyone.

I guess what i'm also getting at is how they're comparing and how its "20% more" than Toronto - are we talking South Beach vs Downtown Toronto? We talking about the surrounding areas included (for TO, Markham, Pickering, Whitby; for Miami including Miami Beach, Key Biscane) or just staying in the proper downtowns?

I guess this is a shitty, long winded way to stay that real estate isn't the equalizer that it once was for southern teams, especially with all the Russians, Canadians, and upstate NY/Mass people moving down. Cost of living isn't really cheaper anymore.

Or, you can do the sane thing and chalk this up with all of the other local issues that fall outside the salary cap and understand that not every market is completely even from a desirability perspective. ;o)

Has anyone ever said "You know what - this salary cap thing is way too simple! You know what we need to do - make it infinitely MORE complex to limit players movement even more. And we need to make sure that the system is flexible enough to deal with all of the ever-changing real world market dynamics to ensure that an organization isn't given an advantage!"

 

[Space umpire]

Or, you can do the sane thing and chalk this up with all of the other local issues that fall outside the salary cap and understand that not every market is completely even from a desirability perspective. ;o)

Has anyone ever said "You know what - this salary cap thing is way too simple! You know what we need to do - make it infinitely MORE complex to limit players movement even more. And we need to make sure that the system is flexible enough to deal with all of the ever-changing real world market dynamics to ensure that an organization isn't given an advantage!"

If we are going to adjust in an attempt to remove any advantage, how about we place limits on support staffing. There needs to be a percentage of HRR that teams can spend on coaches and scouts.
The Montreal’s, Toronto’s, Chicago’s and New York’s of the league have a lot of available revenue. If spent right their scouts should be far better at finding that unknown guy.

 

[JPT]

Or, you can do the sane thing and chalk this up with all of the other local issues that fall outside the salary cap and understand that not every market is completely even from a desirability perspective. ;o)

Has anyone ever said "You know what - this salary cap thing is way too simple! You know what we need to do - make it infinitely MORE complex to limit players movement even more. And we need to make sure that the system is flexible enough to deal with all of the ever-changing real world market dynamics to ensure that an organization isn't given an advantage!"

And if my team is still managed like shit after all of that, force all teams to hire management that doesn't know what the hell it's doing.

 

[Strangle]

Blame the CRA for the Tax problem in Canada.

It’s not the cra, it’s the Canadian government

 

[End on a Hinote]

Just pass laws at the state/provincial level that says athletes are exempt from state income taxes.

We may be desperate for a Stanley Cup here in Canada, but we'll never be THAT desperate.

 

[nhlfan9191]

If we are going to adjust in an attempt to remove any advantage, how about we place limits on support staffing. There needs to be a percentage of HRR that teams can spend on coaches and scouts.
The Montreal’s, Toronto’s, Chicago’s and New York’s of the league have a lot of available revenue. If spent right their scouts should be far better at finding that unknown guy.

I see what you’re trying to say but getting discounts on contracts in a cap league due to location is a huge advantage whereas having to pick the right staff even if your organization has money to blow is a separate thing. There’s a reason the last 7-8 years has had a non state tax team in the final. You couldn’t build a team like the Florida teams in Canada for example.

 

[JPT]

I see what you’re trying to say but getting discounts on contracts in a cap league due to location is a huge advantage whereas having to pick the right staff even if your organization has money to blow is a separate thing. There’s a reason the last 7-8 years has had a non state tax team in the final. You couldn’t build a team like the Florida teams in Canada for example.

Why did teams in those areas not start becoming more successful earlier in the cap era if it's such a huge advantage? Why did it take 12-13 years? Also, if it's a huge advantage, shouldn't it translate into on-ice success in a more tangible way than your (incorrect) assertion that every final over the past 7 or 8 years has had a team in a state with no income tax?

 

[RC51]

first all Nhl players are paid in US dollars. So why not have the NHL simply average out the us state and canadian provincial taxes and have the NHL collect collect this average tax from all teams and simply distribute evenly the taxes to each state and province. The no tax states get some money and the tax states get a bit less due to the average.

first all Nhl players are paid in US dollars. So why not have the NHL simply average out the us state and canadian provincial taxes and have the NHL collect collect this average tax from all teams and simply distribute evenly the taxes to each state and province. The no tax states get some money and the tax states get a bit less due to the average.

 

[JPT]

first all Nhl players are paid in US dollars. So why not have the NHL simply average out the us state and canadian provincial taxes and have the NHL collect collect this average tax from all teams and simply distribute evenly the taxes to each state and province. The no tax states get some money and the tax states get a bit less due to the average.

first all Nhl players are paid in US dollars. So why not have the NHL simply average out the us state and canadian provincial taxes and have the NHL collect collect this average tax from all teams and simply distribute evenly the taxes to each state and province. The no tax states get some money and the tax states get a bit less due to the average.

It isn't that simple. Each player is going to have different tax burdens depending on where they legally reside, their individual filing statuses, deductions, etc. The league would have to literally determine each player's tax liabilities, which would involve having access to private information. The NHLPA would never go for that. Further, the league isn't going to collect money and pay players' taxes (I don't think that's even legal tbh) when it's the players' responsibility to pay their own taxes. You're creating a lot of overhead for no real benefit.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

first all Nhl players are paid in US dollars. So why not have the NHL simply average out the us state and canadian provincial taxes and have the NHL collect collect this average tax from all teams and simply distribute evenly the taxes to each state and province. The no tax states get some money and the tax states get a bit less due to the average.

first all Nhl players are paid in US dollars. So why not have the NHL simply average out the us state and canadian provincial taxes and have the NHL collect collect this average tax from all teams and simply distribute evenly the taxes to each state and province. The no tax states get some money and the tax states get a bit less due to the average.

You sweet summer child. What you are discussing is not a league decision, but a taxing authority decision, and the taxing authorities give exactly ZERO shytes about anything except collecting their bag, from the appropriate party (the player in this case).

In your example, how do the Leafs work in the system where Matthew's is essentially state tax free and Marner has to pay Ontario provincial tax on almost his entire salary? How do RFA years work where for the most part the team isn't competing on the open market to determine compensation?

 

[Machinehead]

The problem with these cap threads is that a lot of people argue within the system.

"That wouldn't work with the 50/50 split."

You have to understand, that means nothing to me. I want to burn down this league and start over. I'm willing to lose another entire season to do it.

You can disagree with that, but "that wouldn't work currently" or "the owners wouldn't like that" means absolutely nothing to me.

 

[tucker3434]

The problem with these cap threads is that a lot of people argue within the system.

"That wouldn't work with the 50/50 split."

You have to understand, that means nothing to me. I want to burn down this league and start over. I'm willing to lose another entire season to do it.

You can disagree with that, but "that wouldn't work currently" or "the owners wouldn't like that" means absolutely nothing to me.

But... the owners are the ones who have to approve it. I think the problem with most of these threads is that they don't understand that these proposals need to be at least popular with one full side. Usually they're all expense and with no revenue addition. That's not going to work for anybody.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I see what you’re trying to say but getting discounts on contracts in a cap league due to location is a huge advantage whereas having to pick the right staff even if your organization has money to blow is a separate thing. There’s a reason the last 7-8 years has had a non state tax team in the final. You couldn’t build a team like the Florida teams in Canada for example.

If a Canadian team had any shred of competency in the front office they could.

Tampa:

Kucherov - 2nd round
Hedman - 2nd OA
Stamkos - 1st OA
Point - 2nd round
Vasy - 19th OA
Sergachev - trade
McDonagh - trade

Florida:

Tkachuk - trade
Reinhart - trade
Barkov - 2nd OA
Verhaeghe - FA (only $4m a year)
Bennett - trade
Bob - FA

There's 1 big money FA between the 2 teams' cores, and that 1 guy was lambasted for years as a stupid overpay and the worst contract in the league. What exactly about the tax structure prevents Canadian teams from quality drafting and trading? Not to mention the free agent argument goes out the window when you consider Toronto (the fan base driving this idea) had no issues signing a big fish FA in Tavares.

 

[Machinehead]

But... the owners are the ones who have to approve it. I think the problem with most of these threads is that they don't understand that these proposals need to be at least popular with one full side. Usually they're all expense and with no revenue addition. That's not going to work for anybody.

They'll be willing to approve major amendments to the system if there's no hockey if they don't.

The NHLPA association is horseshit compared to the unions in the other major sports, where players have a lot more power and get a much bigger slice of the pie. They let themselves get dicked in 2013 and now, this is where the bar is.

Also, Bettman, to his credit, is very good at what he does. The players have gotten bodied in every negotiation since he was hired.

 

[norrisnick]

They'll be willing to approve major amendments to the system if there's no hockey if they don't.

The NHLPA association is horseshit compared to the unions in the other major sports, where players have a lot more power and get a much bigger slice of the pie. They let themselves get dicked in 2013 and now, this is where the bar is.

Also, Bettman, to his credit, is very good at what he does. The players have gotten bodied in every negotiation since he was hired.

I'm pretty sure they were talking about the owners and not the players. The owners aren't going to lock out the players and eat a full season of revenue for changes they don't want.

The fans, seemingly the party whose changes you'd like to see integrated, have far less power than the PA in this situation.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm pretty sure they were talking about the owners and not the players. The owners aren't going to lock out the players and eat a full season of revenue for changes they don't want.

The fans, seemingly the party whose changes you'd like to see integrated, have far less power than the PA in this situation.

If the PA doesn't want changes, then that's a them problem. They're playing under the most aggressive salary supression in major sports.

Change is possible. If you're arguing that the PA just won't do anything, you're probably right, but that's a separate issue.

 

[norrisnick]

If the PA doesn't want changes, then that's a them problem. They're playing under the most aggressive salary supression in major sports.

Change is possible. If you're arguing that the PA just won't do anything, you're probably right, but that's a separate issue.

And they have guaranteed contracts, unlike say the NFL. They are also playing in the most niche of all the major sports. That they have it this good is honestly amazing and shows great growth by the league.

 

[Golden_Jet]

If the PA doesn't want changes, then that's a them problem. They're playing under the most aggressive salary supression in major sports.

Guaranteed contracts, NFL players would like that.

 

[Machinehead]

Guaranteed contracts, NFL players would like that.

And they have guaranteed contracts, unlike say the NFL. They are also playing in the most niche of all the major sports. That they have it this good is honestly amazing and shows great growth by the league.

It's easy to guarantee that a small package will be delivered.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It's easy to guarantee that a small package will be delivered.

Whatever that means.

 

[JPT]

The problem with these cap threads is that a lot of people argue within the system.

"That wouldn't work with the 50/50 split."

You have to understand, that means nothing to me. I want to burn down this league and start over. I'm willing to lose another entire season to do it.

You can disagree with that, but "that wouldn't work currently" or "the owners wouldn't like that" means absolutely nothing to me.

What are the chances that your idea is the one that comes to fruition versus the chances some "solution" to the tax advantage is worked on within the constraints of the current system? I get what you mean in a larger ideological sense. That's basically my personal argument for why I don't vote for federal offices, so I definitely feel where you're coming from. However, I think it's understandable why the discussion is taking the current system into account.

 

[norrisnick]

It's easy to guarantee that a small package will be delivered.

Do you think maxing out a bunch of credit cards means you have a lot of money?

MLB and NFL players don't even get 50% of their pie. NBA floats between 49-51%.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

The problem with these cap threads is that a lot of people argue within the system.

"That wouldn't work with the 50/50 split."

You have to understand, that means nothing to me. I want to burn down this league and start over. I'm willing to lose another entire season to do it.

You can disagree with that, but "that wouldn't work currently" or "the owners wouldn't like that" means absolutely nothing to me.

I'm sure the NHL owners are absolutely terrified of your desires. You can campaign against the hard salary cap all you want. Let me know how that goes. While you're at that - will you also fix cancer, world hunger, and peace in the Middle East?

Until then - the rest of us will try to discuss hockey things that have to work practically in the "real world", and not in your head cannon.

 

[Machinehead]

Do you think maxing out a bunch of credit cards means you have a lot of money?

No, but I don't understand the connection you're making there.

What are the chances that your idea is the one that comes to fruition versus the chances some "solution" to the tax advantage is worked on within the constraints of the current system? I get what you mean in a larger ideological sense. That's basically my personal argument for why I don't vote for federal offices, so I definitely feel where you're coming from. However, I think it's understandable why the discussion is taking the current system into account.

Well, tbh, if we're saying "hey it just won't happen" then I think the tax thing is also kind of unrealistic. It's not a league policy. Players are taxed individually based on where they actually live. It's not as simple as the team playing in Florida. Some guys will live in Florida. Some won't. Many of the players are from Europe.

They can't just set the cap at net salary. They would have to come up with an actual number from every player which has all sorts of implications. To be fair, I understand why that's a logistical nightmare.

My comment was more directed at any proposal being met with "but the 50-50 split!" The 50-50 split is the first thing I want to see go. It's a policy failure. The second COVID put real-world pressure on the revenue, the cap system couldn't keep up with market salaries.

I get the business side of it. I get why the owners want the revenue split and why the players like guaranteed contracts. Cool. I feel that every other league has done a way better job of also implementing policy geared towards competition, in addition to business. The NHL hasn't done that at all. They made a business policy and told every GM to just build their team around it. I refuse to believe that can't change at all, and I'm not saying it's easy.

I'm sure the NHL owners are absolutely terrified of your desires. You can campaign against the hard salary cap all you want. Let me know how that goes. While you're at that - will you also fix cancer, world hunger, and peace in the Middle East?

Until then - the rest of us will try to discuss hockey things that have to work practically in the "real world", and not in your head cannon.View attachment 896755

Then don't ever post in a roster building thread ever again LMAO

 

[JPT]

No, but I don't understand the connection you're making there.

Well, tbh, if we're saying "hey it just won't happen" then I think the tax thing is also kind of unrealistic. It's not a league policy. Players are taxed individually based on where they actually live. It's not as simple as the team playing in Florida. Some guys will live in Florida. Some won't. Many of the players are from Europe.

They can't just set the cap at net salary. They would have to come up with an actual number from every player which has all sorts of implications. To be fair, I understand why that's a logistical nightmare.

My comment was more directed at any proposal being met with "but the 50-50 split!" The 50-50 split is the first thing I want to see go. It's a policy failure. The second COVID put real-world pressure on the revenue, the cap system couldn't keep up with market salaries.

I get the business side of it. I get why the owners want the revenue split and why the players like guaranteed contracts. Cool. I feel that every other league has done a way better job of also implementing policy geared towards competition, in addition to business. The NHL hasn't done that at all. They made a business policy and told every GM to just build their team around it. I refuse to believe that can't change at all, and I'm not saying it's easy.

Then don't ever post in a roster building thread ever again LMAO

I agree with you. It isn't something the league is going to look at, and I'm of the opinion it isn't something the league should look at as it is too complicated of a fix for one location-specific advantage out of many.