An idea to remove the cap advantage for no tax states

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Oilers missed in 2019-2020 In the qualify round.. DID not make the playoffs.
Toronto same as Edmonton.
Pittsburgh missed the last 2 years and lost in the qualify round in 2019-2020.

That's 5 misses. Pretty close to the percentage of the tax free teams though.

I said you'd be hard pressed. You made it sound easy but you also messed it up.

Surprisingly if you substitute the Islanders for Pittsburgh it gets pretty decent. Only 3 misses in the last 5 years.

The intention of my point was that if Tax Free didn't factor into team success we should likely see some similar successes between 6 random teams over a period. was 5 years the best number for this, no. Perhaps if we go back to the cap we see it isn't.. or that it wasn't and has become an advantage over time?

I do think there's no denying it.. the last 5 years. Tax free teams are CRUSHING it. For whatever reasons.

Probably because they were so bad for so long?

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

I think boiling it down to 1 thing is impossible. Are those 6 teams successful because they're tax free. No. Does tax free help them be successful. YES. That fact people in here think it's no advantage or not significant is bull f***ing shit imo. Just accept it is all. The great Bill Zito even admits it and says he uses it. He sells the fact they're tax free.. and he sells the fact they're in Miami and drive golf carts to practice. Hell I want to go play for them haha. Saying that has no impact on the teams success is bull shit is all I'm saying. This is a guy who came from Columbus as an assistant GM. Now he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. A guy who admitted exactly what many here saying doesn't exist.

You're trying to explain singular reasons for each team when the reasons involve a ton of factors.
No doubt there are destination cities in the NHL like you point out. Rangers being one of them. All 6 tax free teams are too. Heck there's probably a reason those states are tax free. Because they're destination cities for weather, population etc.

Has Dallas drafted great.. hell yah. Does Dallas lose FA's left right and center.. nope.

Has Calgary made mistakes.. yes. Why does Bennet succeed in Florida but not Calgary? Why does Hubredeau succeed in Florida and fail in Calgary. I don't think that's an easy question to answer and nobody probably knows the reasons. But the cost of a mistake in Calgary is much much harder to recover from than a mistake made by Florida. Florida has access to pretty much every Free agent in any form. UFA, RFA, etc. Calgary has access to what? 70% at best because of NTC and NMC?

Even myself being an Oiler fan I'm not Naive to think our signings are because the Oilers are some great organization. Hardly. People are signing here for two reasons. McDavid and Draisitl. Edmonton is a destination because of lottery balls. When they age out there will be an exodus and a second decade of darkness. We'll have to draft better than the other teams in hopes of getting out it again.

IMO - there is a difference between the statistics around play-off success not being correlated the related team's state tax rate, and saying there is a benefit to negotiations being in a tax free state. Like Laus said, I expect that Zito sells the tax aspect along with things like weather and team culture. Just like Drury probably sells MSG and the night life in NYC, and Holland selling the outdoor life and history of the Oilers.

The problem with "fixing the problem" is my Maple Leafs example from above. The same team, paying 2 players essentially identically, and those players have VERY different amounts as "take home pay". I don't see how the CBA can fix that in an effective manner, especially when there are so many other factors that are not included (cost of living, endorsement opportunities, etc.).

 

[Canadienna]

I'm convinced this thread is a psyop to make all tax/salary cap arguments look as bad as the OP.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

I think boiling it down to 1 thing is impossible. Are those 6 teams successful because they're tax free. No. Does tax free help them be successful. YES. That fact people in here think it's no advantage or not significant is bull f***ing shit imo. Just accept it is all. The great Bill Zito even admits it and says he uses it. He sells the fact they're tax free.. and he sells the fact they're in Miami and drive golf carts to practice. Hell I want to go play for them haha. Saying that has no impact on the teams success is bull shit is all I'm saying. This is a guy who came from Columbus as an assistant GM. Now he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. A guy who admitted exactly what many here saying doesn't exist.

You're trying to explain singular reasons for each team when the reasons involve a ton of factors.
No doubt there are destination cities in the NHL like you point out. Rangers being one of them. All 6 tax free teams are too. Heck there's probably a reason those states are tax free. Because they're destination cities for weather, population etc.

Has Dallas drafted great.. hell yah. Does Dallas lose FA's left right and center.. nope.

Has Calgary made mistakes.. yes. Why does Bennet succeed in Florida but not Calgary? Why does Hubredeau succeed in Florida and fail in Calgary. I don't think that's an easy question to answer and nobody probably knows the reasons. But the cost of a mistake in Calgary is much much harder to recover from than a mistake made by Florida. Florida has access to pretty much every Free agent in any form. UFA, RFA, etc. Calgary has access to what? 70% at best because of NTC and NMC?

Even myself being an Oiler fan I'm not Naive to think our signings are because the Oilers are some great organization. Hardly. People are signing here for two reasons. McDavid and Draisitl. Edmonton is a destination because of lottery balls. When they age out there will be an exodus and a second decade of darkness. We'll have to draft better than the other teams in hopes of getting out it again.

Here is a basic and simple thought. Taxes are not the responsibility of the employer. In no business. Taxes are the sole responsibility of the employee. How you file your taxes and do things to lower your burden is solely the employee's liability. Hence why players have residency in other places. But you know, keep going on with Taxes being your boogeyman.

I'm convinced this thread is a psyop to make all tax/salary cap arguments look as bad as the OP.

You know....or the taxes excuse is fundamentally built in a glass house, that throwing some pebbles at it make it shatter.

TLDR past “Zito sells the fact that they’re in Miami.” They aren't, the practice facility is on Foet lauderdale, the arena is in Sunrise. Both north of Miami. Also asked you to provide where he’s carried on about tax free.

Actually, I’m sure he does. Part of his job is to be a salesman, I e actually said it’s an advantage, but what allllll the whiners can’t do is show me and others where it’s “worked” until the last few years. Both here and Tampa. What’s gone on in those years, amazing ownership AND management.

On more time since it’s hard, Zito chose not to overpay Monty to stay. He let him walk and used that money in other places. Previous GMs would’ve given him the same as he got in Seattle or more.

It’s disingenuous to cry about taxes when one GM is playing chess (didn’t sign a single FA to a bloated contract on July 1st) and others are playing checkers.

Same people will say selling people on history and legacy of Original Six teams is perfectly fine.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Allow teams to reimburse based on their states tax rates so that their players can make equivalent take home pay as a zero tax state. NHL just needs to hire an accountant to provide some guidelines.

Who will have a problem with it? Players? Nope. Teams? Nope, they have the option to do it but they dont have to.

LOL are you serious? You think Owners will want to PAY EXTRA to reimburse their employees because of taxes of their locale out of the goodness of their heart? To make a bunch of crybaby sports fans happy? Are you serious?

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Oilers missed in 2019-2020 In the qualify round.. DID not make the playoffs.
Toronto same as Edmonton.
Pittsburgh missed the last 2 years and lost in the qualify round in 2019-2020.

That's 5 misses. Pretty close to the percentage of the tax free teams though.

I said you'd be hard pressed. You made it sound easy but you also messed it up.

Surprisingly if you substitute the Islanders for Pittsburgh it gets pretty decent. Only 3 misses in the last 5 years.

The intention of my point was that if Tax Free didn't factor into team success we should likely see some similar successes between 6 random teams over a period. was 5 years the best number for this, no. Perhaps if we go back to the cap we see it isn't.. or that it wasn't and has become an advantage over time?

I do think there's no denying it.. the last 5 years. Tax free teams are CRUSHING it. For whatever reasons.

Carolina
Colorado
Boston
Rangers
LA

You know what's been killing among tax free teams? Management and Ownership. You look across the league at the best management and ownership, you will see a correlation. Vegas, Tampa, Florida, Dallas, and Nashville all have had among the best management teams in the last 5 years, and in some cases with Tampa, Dallas, and Nashville, for 10 years+. Vegas has been super aggressive since inception, and Florida finally after 20+ years got some competent ownership and management. Tampa didn't change until they got those cancers Koules and Barrie out of the league and Jeff Vinik bought the team and brought in Yzerman to change the culture and make up of the team. A proper example is Seattle, good ownership but terrible Management. Ron Francis is an idiot, terrible GM, hired a terrible coach who stayed way too long in Hakstol, have a tax benefit and great city, still not helping them.

Its like people refuse to believe or want to accept that a combination of good city, good management, good ownership will prevail anywhere, taxes be damned, because it makes them realize how shit their management, ownership, or city is.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Allow teams to reimburse based on their states tax rates so that their players can make equivalent take home pay as a zero tax state. NHL just needs to hire an accountant to provide some guidelines.

Who will have a problem with it? Players? Nope. Teams? Nope, they have the option to do it but they dont have to.

adds escrow, once teams reimburse.

Plus not much different than post tax currently,
teams could pay more, some won’t.

 

[tucker3434]

A lot of companies allow salary adjustments based on location of their employee in various offices. Why not allow this for NHL players. Just make that portion of the salary cap free.

Companies are incentivized to staff their office adequately and can make changes to their cost of living adjustments on the fly, unilaterally, if they dont get the results they want. If Deloitte’s Atlanta office had to sign off on the cost of living stipend for EY’s NYC office, it would never happen.

I’d agree that a cost of living stipend on the back end is more logical than an actual cap adjustment. I dont think you’d ever get 32 teams to agree what would look like or who would fund it.

 

[Breakers]

Sounds like some sort of apron like the NBA uses may be an idea.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Oilers missed in 2019-2020 In the qualify round.. DID not make the playoffs.
Toronto same as Edmonton.
Pittsburgh missed the last 2 years and lost in the qualify round in 2019-2020.

That's 5 misses. Pretty close to the percentage of the tax free teams though.

I said you'd be hard pressed. You made it sound easy but you also messed it up.

Surprisingly if you substitute the Islanders for Pittsburgh it gets pretty decent. Only 3 misses in the last 5 years.

The intention of my point was that if Tax Free didn't factor into team success we should likely see some similar successes between 6 random teams over a period. was 5 years the best number for this, no. Perhaps if we go back to the cap we see it isn't.. or that it wasn't and has become an advantage over time?

I do think there's no denying it.. the last 5 years. Tax free teams are CRUSHING it. For whatever reasons.

Ya its definitely cyclical,
Teams are good then bad,

Others teams Islanders, Nashville plus others only 1 miss.

Covid play ins count as not missing according to the NHL records, partly because teams all didn’t play the same amount of regular season games.
Could probably throw the Covid bubble playoffs out, for calculation. Since a one time thing.

A lot of companies allow salary adjustments based on location of their employee in various offices. Why not allow this for NHL players. Just make that portion of the salary cap free.

Escrow, doesn’t meet 50/50 split

 

[Snotbubbles]

Haven't read the whole thread but the problem with looking at only state income tax is that there are other taxes and fees that people pay that differ from state to state.

Example, if you made $1,000,000 a year for the Pittsburgh Penguins, and you lived in Pittsburgh, you'd need to make $1,200,000 for the same cost of living to play for the Panthers (I used Ft. Lauderdale as the comp here). But Florida doesn't have an income tax and Pennsylvania does. If that same player went across the state to Philadelphia, he'd have to make 1,035,000 for the same comp salary.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Haven't read the whole thread but the problem with looking at only state income tax is that there are other taxes and fees that people pay that differ from state to state.

Example, if you made $1,000,000 a year for the Pittsburgh Penguins, and you lived in Pittsburgh, you'd need to make $1,200,000 for the same cost of living to play for the Panthers (I used Ft. Lauderdale as the comp here). But Florida doesn't have an income tax and Pennsylvania does. If that same player went across the state to Philadelphia, he'd have to make 1,035,000 for the same comp salary.

Why is this a problem for the employer? That's what some people refuse to understand. That is up to the player to decide. Plenty of players decide they would much rather pay high taxes to play in big cities.

 

[Lacaar]

TLDR past “Zito sells the fact that they’re in Miami.” They aren't, the practice facility is on Foet lauderdale, the arena is in Sunrise. Both north of Miami. Also asked you to provide where he’s carried on about tax free.

Actually, I’m sure he does. Part of his job is to be a salesman, I e actually said it’s an advantage, but what allllll the whiners can’t do is show me and others where it’s “worked” until the last few years. Both here and Tampa. What’s gone on in those years, amazing ownership AND management.

On more time since it’s hard, Zito chose not to overpay Monty to stay. He let him walk and used that money in other places. Previous GMs would’ve given him the same as he got in Seattle or more.

It’s disingenuous to cry about taxes when one GM is playing chess (didn’t sign a single FA to a bloated contract on July 1st) and others are playing checkers.

Why do you use such terms as Whining and Crying when it's just a discussion? I think you need to change your attitude. It's not like I'm saying take your cup away for Christ sakes.

This is a message board to have some debate and discussion about it. Not to shit on your cup win dude. Stop being so insecure.

Do you have this inherent need to justify that your team won the cup without any advantage what so ever? That Zito is some god among GM's. Hell I listen to Zito on the Daily Face off show and really enjoy what he has to say. That's where he came out and said. "I sell tax free" , "I sell the fact that the players live close to the practice facility and drive golf carts to practice." That's where I got that from.

This is a competitive league where everything you have should be used to be taken advantage of. I applaud the work Zito's done. I just think it's lame to put your head in the ground and think you're tax situation and location doesn't offer any sort of advantage. The only reason I can think you have such a poor attitude is you have some fear it may be taken away? Rest assured I doubt anything like what this thread is talking about would ever come to fruition.

I don't think there's any denying the rampant success of tax free teams the last few years. Is it coincidence.. perhaps. Only time will tell. Will the NHL change it. I would be surprised if they attempted anything about it. It's an advantage but it's not a game changer.

Tax Free teams have an advantage.
Destination teams have an advantage.
Generational lottery winning teams have an advantage.

 

[Laus723]

Why do you use such terms as Whining and Crying when it's just a discussion? I think you need to change your attitude. It's not like I'm saying take your cup away for Christ sakes.

This is a message board to have some debate and discussion about it. Not to shit on your cup win dude. Stop being so insecure.

Do you have this inherent need to justify that your team won the cup without any advantage what so ever? That Zito is some god among GM's. Hell I listen to Zito on the Daily Face off show and really enjoy what he has to say. That's where he came out and said. "I sell tax free" , "I sell the fact that the players live close to the practice facility and drive golf carts to practice." That's where I got that from.

This is a competitive league where everything you have should be used to be taken advantage of. I applaud the work Zito's done. I just think it's lame to put your head in the ground and think you're tax situation and location doesn't offer any sort of advantage. The only reason I can think you have such a poor attitude is you have some fear it may be taken away? Rest assured I doubt anything like what this thread is talking about would ever come to fruition.

I don't think there's any denying the rampant success of tax free teams the last few years. Is it coincidence.. perhaps. Only time will tell. Will the NHL change it. I would be surprised if they attempted anything about it. It's an advantage but it's not a game changer.

Tax Free teams have an advantage.
Destination teams have an advantage.
Generational lottery winning teams have an advantage.

Because people have been crying about it for awhile now. I said it’s an advantage, but it still needs to be used correctly. He signs Montour to that same deal and the depth is depleted. We went from having to ice Colin White, Fitzgerald, and a career AHLer, this year we could use Okposo, Lorentz and others. It made a difference.

I don’t feel a need to justify anything, nor do I care what anyone says about our Cup win, I just think points are being brought up without certain things in mind. Or just as an excuse and it needs to be done away with?

The rampant success also has to do with at least 3 of the last 4 Cup wins (not sure on Colorado) having teams deep into LTIR and owners willing to pay those guys to play in the postseason.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Sounds like some sort of apron like the NBA uses may be an idea.

NBA has a soft cap, and as I understand it, the apron is used to limit flexibility for teams who significantly exceed the cap.

 

[Golden_Jet]

NBA has a soft cap, and as I understand it, the apron is used to limit flexibility for teams who significantly exceed the cap.

What’s a CBA apron?

 

[Derailed75]

Explain the years prior. Where has Zito said he has it easier? He may have, but Tallon never found it. Keenan, no previous manager. Prior to Stevie Y Tampa went over a decade without another Cup.

You went on to answer your own question. It’s takes great ownership and management. Period.

Well and a little luck but your point stands.

I can't believe this is a real post from an adult....

Yeah you can. Just remember what George Carlin says "Think about how dumb the average person is, now realize half of everyone is more stupid than that"

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

What’s a CBA apron?

The "apron" is a limiting factor in the new NBA CBA. Not an expert by any stretch, but if you exceed the cap by certain amounts for multiple years (aka - the apron) it essentially limits all the other options that teams have to add players (mid-level exception, etc.). My understanding is that it turns the NBA "soft cap" into a "hard cap" like what we're used to in the NHL.

 

[Idiot Stick]

why doesnt the nhl just use turbotax?
Thats what i use so they can too???????????

problemo solved and no more advantage silly sunbelt teams

 

[McVechkin]

I need to see an in depth analysis on other taxes (property etc) players have to pay in all the markets. I suspect it evens it up a little bit.. tho not completely…

 

[Golden_Jet]

I need to see an in depth analysis on other taxes (property etc) players have to pay in all the markets. I suspect it evens it up a little bit.. tho not completely…

Generally I’d say property taxes are more, plus whatever other methods they use to generate money.

Someone pages ago, said they pay 2% property tax on the valuation of the home.
Seemed like a lot.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

I need to see an in depth analysis on other taxes (property etc) players have to pay in all the markets. I suspect it evens it up a little bit.. tho not completely…

Put it this way, if a place has no income tax, they can afford to do that because they tax everything else at a higher rate. In Texas for example, they have really high property taxes in comparison.

 

[Xanlet]

Just dropping this here for anyone who tries to downplay the tax advantage.

 

[BrokenFace]

Oilers missed in 2019-2020 In the qualify round.. DID not make the playoffs.
Toronto same as Edmonton.
Pittsburgh missed the last 2 years and lost in the qualify round in 2019-2020.

That's 5 misses. Pretty close to the percentage of the tax free teams though.

I said you'd be hard pressed. You made it sound easy but you also messed it up.

Surprisingly if you substitute the Islanders for Pittsburgh it gets pretty decent. Only 3 misses in the last 5 years.

The intention of my point was that if Tax Free didn't factor into team success we should likely see some similar successes between 6 random teams over a period. was 5 years the best number for this, no. Perhaps if we go back to the cap we see it isn't.. or that it wasn't and has become an advantage over time?

I do think there's no denying it.. the last 5 years. Tax free teams are CRUSHING it. For whatever reasons.

Not too long before that, California teams won 3 cups in 7 years. In fact, if taxes are such a detriment, why did California teams out perform Canadian teams so badly from 2007 until a few years ago when the California teams finally needed to rebuild? I bet players avoid Canadian teams due to the scrutiny they face in those cities. Not just for their own sake, but for their families too

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Just dropping this here for anyone who tries to downplay the tax advantage.

LOL who is this? Also this has been provably false and exaggerated. But ok, keep on going. You want more proof proving other wise? Go through the thread and look at the player agents and actual accountants and tax law specialists talking about it. Jesus christ,, you notice its TSN constantly crying about it? Have a problem with facts? Take it up with the CRA because they are the ones "screwing" the millionaires.

Not too long before that, California teams won 3 cups in 7 years. In fact, if taxes are such a detriment, why did California teams out perform Canadian teams so badly from 2007 until a few years ago when the California teams finally needed to rebuild? I bet players avoid Canadian teams due to the scrutiny they face in those cities. Not just for their own sake, but for their families too

Don't even bother, to these absolute morons, only the last 5 years matter. Because of confirmation bias.