An idea for improve international youth tournament

[Elvs]

As already said, my proposal is made to make the tournament more interesting and I think it would be.

You have yet to answer my question from before. Why can't Canada arrenge it's own internal championship between provinces?

Even if we go along with your idea for a second... Wouldn't Ontario win almost every time? They have 213 000 registred hockey players. Quebec is second with 87 000.

Seems to me like kids from Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia are doomed of ever becoming world champions.

 

[Belloco]

You have yet to answer my question from before. Why can't Canada arrenge it's own internal championship between provinces?

Even if we go along with your idea for a second... Wouldn't Ontario win almost every time? They have 213 000 registred hockey players. Quebec is second with 87 000.

Seems to me like kids from Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia are doomed of ever becoming world champions.

Such competitions already exist.

My proposal concerns the world championships.

The three Canadian selections would take over the areas of the CHL leagues.

Currently, I would be very surprised to see Ontario favorite against Canada West in an U18 tournament. Quebec & Maritimes would have its say.

European teams could compete more.

The meetings would be more balanced and the course of the tournament more undecided.

 

[Lambo]

Well, we'll see this year.

You forgot to say that Canada often plays without its best players.

In the previous U18 tournament, it wasn't the real Canada. Finland had a lot of trouble beating Canada who fielded a weak delegation.

As already said, my proposal is made to make the tournament more interesting and I think it would be.

I wrote that Canada has the best offspring in the world. But aspiration and reality are not always one and the same every year. A country that has almost 40 million inhabitants and only knows hockey should be much more dominant.

 

[Belloco]

I wrote that Canada has the best offspring in the world. But aspiration and reality are not always one and the same every year. A country that has almost 40 million inhabitants and only knows hockey should be much more dominant.

You know, I'm the first to rejoice in the decline in the number of Canadians in the NHL.

My idea is really made to have deeper and more undecided international tournaments.

 

[WarriorofTime]

russia does not necessarily come back - russia could, should, hopefully will dissolve - freeing up many new countries.

What about having e g Siberia and Tatarstan as a new and not bad hockey nations soon participating in international competitions?

Why would Russia "break up"?

 

[DeeQ]

You know, I'm the first to rejoice in the decline in the number of Canadians in the NHL.

My idea is really made to have deeper and more undecided international tournaments.

That wouldn't be international competition anymore, like, at all.

Best on best, only 4-5 have a chance to win it. Of course Canada is the biggest favourite. That's just how hockey is. Why should the junior tournaments be different?

Hockey is still somewhat competetive sport internationally compared to other major sports in NA.

 

[joestevens29]

You have yet to answer my question from before. Why can't Canada arrenge it's own internal championship between provinces?

Even if we go along with your idea for a second... Wouldn't Ontario win almost every time? They have 213 000 registred hockey players. Quebec is second with 87 000.

Seems to me like kids from Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia are doomed of ever becoming world champions.

There already is a CJHL championship, although BC pulled their team. Not exactly the best of the best, but honestly if Canada did try do something where it was province vs province would you get the best of the best anyway?

The World Juniors as it is, is the tourney these kids want to play in. Adding more tourneys or making it a gimmick would just tarnish the current tourney.

That and where does it stop if you go to gimmick tourneys? Why stop at hockey? Why not Basketball, Soccer, Baseball etc..

Fact is you are always going to have lessor teams. The goal is to build up all programs as best as you can. If your program is struggling then you need to look at doing things differently. I think it's Latvia that Schremp is working with. He is brining a more North American view to developing the players there, so there are nations trying different things

 

[Belloco]

That wouldn't be international competition anymore, like, at all.

Best on best, only 4-5 have a chance to win it. Of course Canada is the biggest favourite. That's just how hockey is. Why should the junior tournaments be different?

Hockey is still somewhat competetive sport internationally compared to other major sports in NA.

Because this is already the case for the U12 to U17 world competitions.

 

[hirawl]

Have your regional national tournaments how and whenever you like. The worlds are for countries.

 

[Elvs]

Such competitions already exist.

My proposal concerns the world championships.

The three Canadian selections would take over the areas of the CHL leagues.

Currently, I would be very surprised to see Ontario favorite against Canada West in an U18 tournament. Quebec & Maritimes would have its say.

European teams could compete more.

The meetings would be more balanced and the course of the tournament more undecided.

Then why do you feel the need to change the WHJC? If you wanna watch Canada vs. Canada, can't you just watch the internal competions that you say already exists?

Canada having three teams sounds like cheating to me. Nearly every single tournament, you would end up having Canada make up three of eight quarterfinal teams. And I'm guessing USA would also have two or three teams if you had it your way?

Hypothetically, Canada could win gold, silver and bronze in the same tournament. Seems unfair to other nations. Why should I, as a Swede, watch this tournament? Why should Canadians, even? Wouldn't most Canadians wanna see all their best players on the same team?

If your idea was enticing for the majority of Canadians, the internal competitions between provinces would already be more hyped up than the WHJC.

 

[THE JAM]

Why would Russia "break up"?

russia is "made of" a lot of countries which russia has actually violently incorporated

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

What will fix the limited competition is growing the sport around the world. Made up teams like Ontario ect, or the suggested a 6 team tournament format do the opposite by limiting opportunities for small hockey countries.

• Invest money in hosting tournaments in growing hockey countries with big potential like Slovakia, France, Germany, Japan, China (and others).
• Offer free tickets to games and tryouts/coaching sessions to children during the tournaments.
• Help the hockey federations in those countries to create an efficient junior systems and share knowledge with the local coaches.

And yes, I know this is expensive and therefore likely wont happen. I'm just putting it out there because it's the only reasonable solution to fix the lack of competition in national tournaments.

 

[GM Armchair]

Canada is good! This tournament is unfair! What about the other teams?!?

Next you will want teams like Latvia to get participation awards.

 

[OilersFanatics505]

70% of U18 and U20 titles over the past 20 years have been won by Canada or USA. Russia is no longer there. Only Sweden and Finland can change the trend a few times.

It's poor as diversity. Results change very little from tournament to tournament. Always the same in 1/4, the same in 1/2.

What would be the odds for a Canada/USA/Finland/Sweden bet in 1/2? I would not even be surprised if this bet is impossible because it is too easy.

In addition, I see the future in the present. USA is getting stronger. Canada has a crazy 2005 and 2007 generation.

So yes there may be thefts but in the game the European teams will suffer. Even Sweden and Finland.

We would see better games with regional North American teams.

There is only some small European countries with no more than 10 million inhabitants who have to play against countries the size of a continent.

The tournaments would be more interesting because they would be more balanced and almost all the teams could play for the title.

Currently we have for the title : Canada (40%), USA (40%), Sweden (10%), Finland (10%) others (0%)
For medals : Canada/USA/Sweden/Finland others (5%)

International Competition is not designed for diversity… it’s designed for best on best. If your best isn’t good enough then it’s not good enough. No shame in losing to Can, US, Swe or Fin.

 

[Belloco]

Then why do you feel the need to change the WHJC? If you wanna watch Canada vs. Canada, can't you just watch the internal competions that you say already exists?

Canada having three teams sounds like cheating to me. Nearly every single tournament, you would end up having Canada make up three of eight quarterfinal teams. And I'm guessing USA would also have two or three teams if you had it your way?

Hypothetically, Canada could win gold, silver and bronze in the same tournament. Seems unfair to other nations. Why should I, as a Swede, watch this tournament? Why should Canadians, even? Wouldn't most Canadians wanna see all their best players on the same team?

If your idea was enticing for the majority of Canadians, the internal competitions between provinces would already be more hyped up than the WHJC.

I want to see balanced encounters with real interest. This is currently not the case.

If the three Canadian teams are 1,2,3 I don't see the problem. In the Olympics, these things happen in Athletics or Swimming.

However, I doubt that this happens often.

I also remind you that these are only U18 and U20 tournaments that I am targeting and that concretely - there is no need to get sick and develop national passions for tournaments which must bring fun and which concern more , player development.

Competitions between provinces are not exhibited in Junior but there is still the Memorial Cup which looks like that and it's very successful.

Winning a medal for Sweden in a tournament with 3 opponents has very little value. Does a U20 bronze medal make you jump for joy? I do not believe. Even players would have neutral emotions. In a larger tournament, with more competition and more equal odds, that would have a whole other value.

World U-17 Hockey Challenge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here is the U17 palmares. Already a little more diversified than the U18 prize list with 8 medal-winning teams in 5 years.

Once again, I don't understand this obsession with shouting down the idea of an already established project from U12 to U17.

The current formula is only a repetition of the same scenario year after year with the same teams constantly in the 1/2 final.

 

[Belloco]

International Competition is not designed for diversity… it’s designed for best on best. If your best isn’t good enough then it’s not good enough. No shame in losing to Can, US, Swe or Fin.

It's the systematic repetition. There is very little uncertainty before the 1/2 finals.

Canada, USA, Sweden and Finland in 1/2 again, again & again.

 

[Belloco]

russia is "made of" a lot of countries which russia has actually violently incorporated

Russian colonization took place 2 centuries ago. USA & Canada made the same things.

PS : no politic.

 

[Albatros]

Russian colonization took place 2 centuries ago. USA & Canada made the same things.

PS : no politic.

Decolonization of the US or Canada might not produce new independent hockey programs of much quality though, whereas in the case of Russia it has already to this point given us the likes of Finland and Latvia.

 

[Elvs]

I want to see balanced encounters with real interest. This is currently not the case.

If the three Canadian teams are 1,2,3 I don't see the problem. In the Olympics, these things happen in Athletics or Swimming.

However, I doubt that this happens often.

I also remind you that these are only U18 and U20 tournaments that I am targeting and that concretely - there is no need to get sick and develop national passions for tournaments which must bring fun and which concern more , player development.

Competitions between provinces are not exhibited in Junior but there is still the Memorial Cup which looks like that and it's very successful.

Winning a medal for Sweden in a tournament with 3 opponents has very little value. Does a U20 bronze medal make you jump for joy? I do not believe. Even players would have neutral emotions. In a larger tournament, with more competition and more equal odds, that would have a whole other value.

World U-17 Hockey Challenge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here is the U17 palmares. Already a little more diversified than the U18 prize list with 8 medal-winning teams in 5 years.

Once again, I don't understand this obsession with shouting down the idea of an already established project from U12 to U17.

The current formula is only a repetition of the same scenario year after year with the same teams constantly in the 1/2 final.

Apples and oranges. You are comparing individual sports to team sports. Swimming and athletics have relays where nations typically only can have one team, especially when talking about olympics or world championships.

What you suggest is that Canada (and USA?) should exclusively have multiple teams. Why not Sweden and Finland? You think our B teams could never beat Canadas WHL team or USA's central team? Or are we allowed multiple teams when we have strong age groups? Who will be deciding that?

And no, Swedes and Finns (and even Americans I'm sure) have no desire watching our countries winning gold while only playing 33% of Canada in the final. If we are gonna earn gold, we wanna do it against your best and only team.

The U17 tournament you speak of is not a world championship. Again, not compareable. But since it's so great, why don't most of the hockey world tune in to watch it? Sounds like the tournament you so greatly desire already exists, so maybe watch that instead?

By the way, why should we let Arizona or Chicago play in the NHL this season? It's obvious they can't compete for the Stanley Cup. We can't suffer through watching Austria play 4 games at the WHJC, why should we have to suffer through Chicago tanking through 82?

 

[Daeni10]

I always get the feeling that NA people just want things to be the most entertaining while europeans want it to be the most competitive. And I think thats a big sports culture thing.

NA sports is a show, there is no relegation and you get rewarded for being bad in a way to keep things as level headed as possible.

In EU sports its pretty much everyone fighting their own fight and either you are good enough and swim or you are not and drown. And if you drown get better so you wont drown the next time.

Sure you cant drown if you dont swim, but whats the point in competition then?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

No need for gimmick teams. Look at world Cup 2016 and what a failure it was.

Just make it a 8 nation tournament, the best playing.

Canada
Finland
Slovakia
Switzerland

in one group.

USA
Czechia
Germany
Latvia

In another group.

Belarus and Russia banned, otherwise i would have them in over Latvia and Switzerland.

I love your schtick lol

 

[llwyd]

The absence of Russia is sportingly cruelly felt.

I amend that to "pleasurably felt" - I would not pay this tournament a second of attention, were they included.

 

[Belloco]

I amend that to "pleasurably felt" - I would not pay this tournament a second of attention, were they included.

I am very skeptical about the return of Russia and in general the maintenance of world competitions.

PS : no politic

Moreover, it was not yesterday's games that were able to revise my opinion.

Still tedious and predictable matches.

The ranking is very telling. Only 1 upset and only one match with an uncertain outcome in 20 games. And in 4 months it will be practically exactly the same scenario.

Nothing exciting.

 

[WarriorofTime]

If Russia is banned due to Putin's war, Canada should also be banned for Hockey Canada's antics, but of course that will never happen.