All-time underrated players

[DitchMarner]

Maybe guys like Brenden Morrison and Craig Conroy?

Players who were often talked about as not being true number one centres but had the intelligence and skill to have been able to make good second line centres.

 

[Staniowski]

 

[VanIslander]

https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/s/ltEVX4nz9x

 

[Johnny Engine]

3) Steve Duchesne
- Undrafted D-men
- Perennial 50-70 points D-men
- 752 points in 1113 games
- Won SC with Red Wings in his last season

This is an interesting player to me, in a kind of "maybe underrated, maybe rated just fine, but warranting further conversation" sort of way. And maybe that's just me, but here's some things:

- He was on two separate, extremely young and green teams that made the jump to the playoffs, where Duchesne was clearly the most experienced and prominent defenseman on the team. The 1993 Nordiques had a 21 year old Adam Foote, 23 year old Curtis Leschyshyn as well as a 28-but-newer-to-Canada Alexei Gusarov, and he led the blue line in points by a mile. The 1997 Senators had a teenaged Wade Redden on their team, and not a whole lot of depth. I don't have TOI available, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was leaned on extremely heavily in both places. Then he was gone the next season both years. The Senators stayed good but the Nordiques cratered in 1994 before getting back on track in 1995 (adding Krupp and Lefevbre definitely helped there). Knowing more about his role on both teams - especially as it concerns Foote and Redden - would shed a lot of light on what he brought to the table.
- Nobody cares (or should care) about what players do in the ATD, but this might be somewhat illustrative: in the usual 30ish-team ATDs, there's usually a late run on PP2 guys for the 3rd pair that look more or less interchangeable on paper once you get past a few guys like Rafalski (won a lot), and Housley (cartoonish numbers if bad at other things). Duchesne is usually in that tier, but if you stack his numbers - whether we're talking adjusted, finishes among defense, VsX among defensemen, you name it - Duchesne handily clears players like Schneider, Kaberle, etc, even if you take away some of his Gretzky adjacent seasons. So in that exercise maybe you'd draft him higher than the rest of that tier. Doesn't tell you squat about his overall talent level, but he really did put up loads of points.
- I think it's a bit difficult for fans to find the words to talk about the guys who fall somewhere between a thunderingly incompetent defensive defenseman like Housley or Barrie, and someone you'd actually give the label "two-way" to. Obviously Duchesne wasn't pushing anyone around, but I think guys of his ilk are underdiscussed when it comes to their overall game - even if it wasn't very good, what skills were particularly deficiency and which ones were OK?

 

[overpass]

- He was on two separate, extremely young and green teams that made the jump to the playoffs, where Duchesne was clearly the most experienced and prominent defenseman on the team. The 1993 Nordiques had a 21 year old Adam Foote, 23 year old Curtis Leschyshyn as well as a 28-but-newer-to-Canada Alexei Gusarov, and he led the blue line in points by a mile. The 1997 Senators had a teenaged Wade Redden on their team, and not a whole lot of depth. I don't have TOI available, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was leaned on extremely heavily in both places. Then he was gone the next season both years. The Senators stayed good but the Nordiques cratered in 1994 before getting back on track in 1995 (adding Krupp and Lefevbre definitely helped there). Knowing more about his role on both teams - especially as it concerns Foote and Redden - would shed a lot of light on what he brought to the table.

Duchesne scored the biggest goal in the short history of the Senators franchise in 1997, putting them in the playoffs. And he was the best defenceman in the short franchise history to that point.



He moved on not long after and others surpassed him, but he'll always have a place in Senators history.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Duchesne scored the biggest goal in the short history of the Senators franchise in 1997, putting them in the playoffs. And he was the best defenceman in the short franchise history to that point.



He moved on not long after and others surpassed him, but he'll always have a place in Senators history.

I went to a game that season, which was all the more special given I'm from Newfoundland and don't get a chance to see the NHL live that often. It was the New Years game where Yashin dangled Scott Bailey while flying from getting tripped, Daigle ripped in the rebound from a shot off the post by Cunneyworth, and Oates scored a shortie while getting waterskied by two Senators.
Any thoughts on the Duchesne for Kravchuk trade that summer? Looks like they basically swapped out their veteran minute-eater for one of a different style, while Redden got one year older and presumably played a little bigger role. And then on the Blues end it's their #3 position behind MacInnis and Pronger that they're addressing. Was there a pressing hockey need to do this on either end, or just a shakeup or business decision?

 

[blundluntman]

Tomas Vokoun's one of the most underrated goalies of all time. If you look at his numbers from 2002-2013, you'll see he has a handful of seasons that should've been vezina candidates and a bunch of elite seasons sandwiched in between. Unfortunately, he spent most of his career underachieving on subpar Nashville and Florida rosters.

 

[overpass]

I went to a game that season, which was all the more special given I'm from Newfoundland and don't get a chance to see the NHL live that often. It was the New Years game where Yashin dangled Scott Bailey while flying from getting tripped, Daigle ripped in the rebound from a shot off the post by Cunneyworth, and Oates scored a shortie while getting waterskied by two Senators.
Any thoughts on the Duchesne for Kravchuk trade that summer? Looks like they basically swapped out their veteran minute-eater for one of a different style, while Redden got one year older and presumably played a little bigger role. And then on the Blues end it's their #3 position behind MacInnis and Pronger that they're addressing. Was there a pressing hockey need to do this on either end, or just a shakeup or business decision?

I was young but I understood Duchesne was traded away because he was going to make too much and Kravchuk was more affordable. It was disappointing and not a popular trade in Ottawa, because with Duchesne it really did feel like the Sens had a legit #1 defenceman. He was part of the Sens becoming a playoff team, and trading him away felt like a step back.

Looking back now I know Kravchuk was a solid defender, Soviet-trained, who could play in all situations. And he did lead the Sens in minutes played in his first two seasons so Jacques must have liked him. But I just remember him being hated for being soft and for bad turnovers. And he was a minus 12 in 21 playoff games. Not a fan favourite at all.

 

[Demigod]

Andrei Markov never received that much appreciation league wide.
Almost every partner he had, had their best seasons and were able to sign big contract after.

 

[carjackmalone]

Stan Smyl
John Tonelli
Danny Gare
John Ogrodnick
Brad Mccrimmon

 

[wetcoast]

Because most fans outside this forum don't even know who he was, its not the same as underrating.

It's also because most people outside of these forums missed how good he was was in the teens, you know between 2011 and 2019 in the HOH section.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Steve Larmer
Patrik Elias
Paul Reinhart
Dirk Graham
Scott Young
Vlad Konstantinov
Bengt Gustafsson
Doug Weight
Rick Middleton
Dave Christian
Craig Hartsburg
Ken Morrow
Ray Whitney
Bob Rouse
Evgeny Nabokov

Edit: Rouse only made the playoffs 10 times in his career but has 136 postseason games to his credit.

I looked this up — from 1993 to 1998, Rouse led all NHLers in playoff games played with 106 — nine more than the next guy (Fetisov).

 

[MadLuke]

In some circle, I am starting to feel that Mike Gartner could be ....

Looking for his name + compiler on this website

He's the Mike Gartner of GMs. The epitome of a compiler.

in the players that should not be in the hall of fame:
how about mike gartner ?
That doesn't work at all. Gartner was a compiler that won nothing. Come on.
Okay, I think Barber belongs, but the others, ok. Gartner has superior numbers, but was a compiler, but okay.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

He was Gretzky away to have the most goals in the nhl during his prime, was 10th in points during that time at a 1 ppg pace. He had goddy number before turning 35. Did 5 Top-10 goals finish doing it, not some very long career of just top 20-30 happening.

Because of the lock-out and a very normal 38 years old retirement, he did not really compile much, he was a still a really relevant player the season just before his last.

From the nhl and media, he seem highly respected and not underrated at all he made the top 100 nhler greatest player list, hall of fame quick, I mean from casual fans.

 

[The Panther]

Yes, Gartner is probably underrated because regulars on here tend to use him as the whipping-boy example of "big career numbers inflated by era".

The irony of this is that Gartner played his early (mostly his best) years for a defence-first club that didn't emphasize scoring in the 1980s, and then he played for a few clubs in the 90s but ddn't decline in scoring production (which most of his peers did) until his very last season --- i.e., the opposite of a "compiler".

He was also selected for Team Canada twice (at which he did well), and seems to have the respect of many of his heavyweight peers.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Yeah, I think there is a difference between “compiling” and impressive longevity at a pretty high level. I think of a compiler as someone who doesn’t hang the skates up when they should, and adds a bunch of seasons at the end of their career that gives them another few hundred points

 

[MadArcand]

Toronto fans hate to hear it, but really Gartner is just winger version of Sundin (or Sundin the center version of Gartner). Incredibly consistent and great longevity but just sub-elite level. Just not something the Venerators of the Holy Peak will like, though, since he doesn't really have one. Still a reasonable HoFer for me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Oh, I don't think I can get there. Sundin was much more of a play driver to me.

 

[MadArcand]

Oh, I don't think I can get there. Sundin was much more of a play driver to me.

Them's the differences between a center and a winger...

 

[MadLuke]

It is hard for me to imagine Gartner being the MVP on best on best type of tourney, easy for Sundin, different tier imo.

 

[MadArcand]

It is hard for me to imagine Gartner being the MVP on best on best type of tourney, easy for Sundin, different tier imo.

Isn't that really just team factor though? Can you imagine Sundin being a MVP on a team with Gretzky, Lemieux et al?

 

[MadLuke]

Isn't that really just team factor though? Can you imagine Sundin being a MVP on a team with Gretzky, Lemieux et al?

My first thought was to add could just be team configuration.

But I had more in 1996 or 2002 with peak Gartner vs peak Sundin (that could have won it that year) when it was wide open for team Canada without those 2 (either physically they're on their prime anymore), but maybe I am underrating Gartner having seen only the 90s version.

 

[MadArcand]

My first thought was to add could just be team configuration.

But I had more in 1996 or 2002 with peak Gartner vs peak Sundin (that could have won it that year) when it was wide open for team Canada without those 2 (either physically they're on their prime anymore), but maybe I am underrating Gartner having seen only the 90s version.

I don't think Gartner was as good as Sundin, but I think Gartner is to wingers what Sundin is to centers.

 

[MadLuke]

That an interesting comp, if we call prime Sundin 1997 to 2002 (in reality it could have been 1993 to 2002 and it is just that the quality of top end center went down making Sundin looking better and better, like for Sakic and Modano)

Sundin was:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Second in points among center, first in goals, more than doubling in points any leaf of that era, not as large of a volume, but .92 ppg in playoff scoring pace for that time, that Fedorov, close to Sakic. It was 4th among center with 30 playoff games or more and his +20 in only 48 games was really impressive, arguably the best.

85 to 90 Gartner was 5th in points, third in goals among winger, but .82 ppg in the playoff for that era was middle of the road, which would go toward my feeling, when it get really really thight, high level hockey, Sundin superiority (and ridiculous tool that was his 6 foot 5 body) show up to a gear that a Gartner level of player did not have.

 

[MadArcand]

That an interesting comp, if we call prime Sundin 1997 to 2002 (in reality it could have been 1993 to 2002 and it is just that the quality of top end center went down making Sundin looking better and better, like for Sakic and Modano)

Sundin was:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Second in points among center, first in goals, more than doubling in points any leaf of that era, not as large of a volume, but .92 ppg in playoff scoring pace for that time, that Fedorov, close to Sakic. It was 4th among center with 30 playoff games or more and his +20 in only 48 games was really impressive, arguably the best.

85 to 90 Gartner was 5th in points, third in goals among winger, but .82 ppg in the playoff for that era was middle of the road, which would go toward my feeling, when it get really really thight, high level hockey, Sundin superiority (and ridiculous tool that was his 6 foot 5 body) show up to a gear that a Gartner level of player did not have.

Well, yes, though looking at PPG paints better picture - Sundin is 9th (no longer outvoluming superior players like Forsberg or Lindros), Gartner is 12th. Sundin is definitely better in playoffs, and frankly better player overall, yes.