All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread pt 8- wait we're spending HOW MUCH?

[Big Daddy Cane]

I find the importance fans, journalists and actual decision makers alike place on production from the center position to be excessive. The functional difference between positions offensively is that the pivot will come underneath the play with speed off the rush and off quick forecheck-induced turnovers more often. 5v5, cycle-based in-zone offense is generally positionless; the third man high is a shared responsibility in the modern NHL.

I think it's more important that a team has a legit 1st, 2nd and 3rd offensive option on each line. That's why Staal in the on-paper Top 6 still doesn't bother me. Centering Niederreiter and Teravainen, he's the 3rd offensive option and he's of that caliber.

The problem with moving Aho to wing is not so much about losing 1st offensive option production from the center position as much as it is pushing a Top 9 winger to the 4th line. While they gain defensively with Wallmark, if you feel that way, they lose Foegele's combination of size and speed on the forecheck. I assume they still want an upgrade for his slot and if that materializes, they would lose quality alternatively.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Overall we’ve played well though so I doubt we’d change anything drastic up right now. Aho is likely to be upset about last game and wanting to prove himself. Most likely thing to happen is he plays way better defensively and we forget we were talking about this.

Although I agree that's most likely, I still think it's less than optimal. Slotting players correctly is important.

Look at the way our defense has come together with everyone slotted correctly. Look at the Bruins, who are just about the best team on the planet because every player is slotted exactly where they belong.

I feel that we have the following up front:

C: Haula, Staal, Wallmark, Gibbons/Bishop
LW: Aho, Dzingel, Niederreiter, Foegele, McGinn, Martinook (inj.)
RW: Svechnikov, Teravainen, Necas

So run 'em like that ...

Aho-Haula-Svech
Dzingel-Staal-Teravainen
Niederreiter-Wallmark-Necas
McGinn-Bishop-Foegele

I think that's a far more balanced lineup than the one we put out there right now.

The problem with moving Aho to wing is not so much about losing 1st offensive option production from the center position as much as it is pushing a Top 9 winger to the 4th line.

I'd consider this more of an issue if we didn't currently have Brock McGinn and Warren Foegele in our top nine.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I feel like you don't see too many great donut teams regardless of how systems work.

 

[bleedgreen]

I feel like you don't see too many great donut teams regardless of how systems work.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Teams need talent to win in the league and there’s a tendency for that talent to play center. There are 2x as many wingers as centers theoretically, but centers accounted for roughly 52% of the Top 50 in raw point production last season.

Accumulating the wingers to be a sufficiently talented wing-driven team is rather difficult in that way. Chicago never found stability on the 2nd line, but won 3 cups. New Jersey got within a few games of one with Zajac and Henrique as the 1-2 punch. Not really a wing-driven team per se, but the Rangers got to the SCF with Stepan and Brassard/Richards. Ottawa got close to the Finals with Turris and Brassard. Arizona’s 1C in their CF appearance was Hanzal. Montreal’s was Desharnais.

 

[spockBokk]

Bye, Bye TVR or Fleury?



According to Capfriendly, looks like LeBrun is mistaken about TVR being an RFA vs. UFA at the end of this season. Fleury is probably worth more due to contract status alone.

 

[bleedgreen]

I get it that it’s a tough spot right now, but someone is going to get hurt any minute and we’ll definitely need all the D through the playoffs. Bringing up one of the Charlotte guys changes the look of this team pretty quick

 

[Helsinki Hurricanes]

I get it that it’s a tough spot right now, but someone is going to get hurt any minute and we’ll definitely need all the D through the playoffs. Bringing up one of the Charlotte guys changes the look of this team pretty quick

Having strong 3rd pairing is a strength this season. But when thinking about it, most teams/coaches can manage one rookie/younger player in the bottom pairing role. I would have thought this would be easy to manage for RBA as he can lean heavily on his top 4 if needed. At some point you just have to trust on the kids and let them learn. What's the point of having Fleury, Bean, Priskie, (Sellgren) in the system if you aren't trusting them with sheltered bottom pairing minutes.

I think Fleury has a bit better value due to draft position and RFA status but TVR is more likely to be moved. Any ideas on who are the potential teams and targets for a trade?

 

[spockBokk]

I think Fleury has a bit better value due to draft position and RFA status but TVR is more likely to be moved. Any ideas on who are the potential teams and targets for a trade?

I’d say Fleury is the much more attractive piece and more likely to be moved, but the fact that TVR is an RD could also factor in. In the end, I think the team would actually prefer to keep TVR and move Fleury. This is solely based on usage.

As far as who the targets are, I’d say any young, righty forward is what they’re looking for. At the top of their wishlist I’d think there’d be Kapanen and Kase. These 2 are also the least likely to be traded. Here’s what I think their wishlist looks like, sorted by who I think is the most likely acquired:

Puljujarvi
Ho-Sang
Athanasiou (not a righty, but could see them interested)
Toffoli
Virtanen
Roslovic
Kapanen
Kase

 

[emptyNedder]

C: Haula, Staal, Wallmark, Gibbons/Bishop
LW: Aho, Dzingel, Niederreiter, Foegele, McGinn, Martinook (inj.)
RW: Svechnikov, Teravainen, Necas

So run 'em like that ...

Aho-Haula-Svech
Dzingel-Staal-Teravainen
Niederreiter-Wallmark-Necas
McGinn-Bishop-Foegele

I think that's a far more balanced lineup than the one we put out there right now.

Accumulating the wingers to be a sufficiently talented wing-driven team is rather difficult in that way.

I like the lines, but I like Haula on the wing and Aho at center. Only one team in the entire league had a 1C last season with more goals than assists: Toronto (both Tavares and Matthews had more goals, so it doesn't matter who was primarily 1C). Haula has 81g/81a in the NHL. As BDC points out, having wings drive the play is rarely successful. Yet both the top two lines, one with Aho and two with TT, would rely on wingers to set up scorers.
I have been as impressed with Haula as anyone, but realistically it is not reasonable to have a 1C who doesn't create primary assists—the Canes tried that with J. Staal.

 

[GoldiFox]

I like the lines, but I like Haula on the wing and Aho at center. Only one team in the entire league had a 1C last season with more goals than assists: Toronto (both Tavares and Matthews had more goals, so it doesn't matter who was primarily 1C). Haula has 81g/81a in the NHL. As BDC points out, having wings drive the play is rarely successful. Yet both the top two lines, one with Aho and two with TT, would rely on wingers to set up scorers.
I have been as impressed with Haula as anyone, but realistically it is not reasonable to have a 1C who doesn't create primary assists—the Canes tried that with J. Staal.

Aho had more 5v5 primary assists from the wing (18) in 2017-18 than he did at Center last year (16). He played most of his minutes that year with Jordan Staal at Center (626 with vs 435 without).

Seems worth trying considering that Haula has been one of the best 5v5 goal scorers in the league this year. Certainly a much better shooting option than Jordan Staal.

 

[FreshSeabass]

Haula is clearly a great addition to this team and really completes our center depth. If i was in charge i would be finding out how to make him stay beyond this season one of my top priorities. Obviously if he wants some ridiculous payday he will go, but i really like him on this team.

 

[sheriff bart]

Haula is clearly a great addition to this team and really completes our center depth. If i was in charge i would be finding out how to make him stay beyond this season one of my top priorities. Obviously if he wants some ridiculous payday he will go, but i really like him on this team.

 

[Chrispy]

I’d say Fleury is the much more attractive piece and more likely to be moved, but the fact that TVR is an RD could also factor in. In the end, I think the team would actually prefer to keep TVR and move Fleury. This is solely based on usage.

As far as who the targets are, I’d say any young, righty forward is what they’re looking for. At the top of their wishlist I’d think there’d be Kapanen and Kase. These 2 are also the least likely to be traded. Here’s what I think their wishlist looks like, sorted by who I think is the most likely acquired:

Puljujarvi
Ho-Sang
Athanasiou (not a righty, but could see them interested)
Toffoli
Virtanen
Roslovic
Kapanen
Kase

I think the first two are going to have trouble beating out McGinn and Foegele for regular top 9 minutes. Raw talent may be there, but both have struggled to make NHL rosters that were weaker than ours.

Athanasiou? Would help the style of play, but does he help the offense that much? I feel like that's putting a more experienced Foegele in for Foegele. And he doesn't solve the RHS issue as you point out.

Toffoli on down make sense as targets to gauge price on.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think the first two are going to have trouble beating out McGinn and Foegele for regular top 9 minutes. Raw talent may be there, but both have struggled to make NHL rosters that were weaker than ours.

Athanasiou? Would help the style of play, but does he help the offense that much? I feel like that's putting a more experienced Foegele in for Foegele. And he doesn't solve the RHS issue as you point out.

Toffoli on down make sense as targets to gauge price on.

I know AA is struggling this year but to compare him to Foegele seems miles off. He has a 30 goal season and is a highly skilled player who has trouble focusing the skill. Foegele is a meat and potatoes grinder who has the bare minimum of skill to chip in, and is occasionally capable of a nice play.

If we can focus TT then we could hypothetically focus AA. I not advocating for trading for him because I don’t think he’ll come cheap and he IS a question mark. He’s just a lot more than a Foegele. He’s fast as hell too. Probably our fastest player as I think Haula has actually lost a step since his injury and I think he may even be able to outnose Necas with the added bonus of not being nearly as likely to kill himself smashing into the end boards when actually hitting that speed.

Agreed on the righty argument.

 

[Chrispy]

I know AA is struggling this year but to compare him to Foegele seems miles off. He has a 30 goal season and is a highly skilled player who has trouble focusing the skill. Foegele is a meat and potatoes grinder who has the bare minimum of skill to chip in, and is occasionally capable of a nice play.

If we can focus TT then we could hypothetically focus AA. I not advocating for trading for him because I don’t think he’ll come cheap and he IS a question mark. He’s just a lot more than a Foegele. He’s fast as hell too. Probably our fastest player as I think Haula has actually lost a step since his injury and I think he may even be able to outnose Necas with the added bonus of not being nearly as likely to kill himself smashing into the end boards when actually hitting that speed.

Agreed on the righty argument.

If AA could focus, he could score 30.
If Foegele or McGinn could knock home a few more of the chances they get, they could...?

A more talented Foegele is probably the better phrase, but I feel like issues with getting that consistency are a major issue.

I think the other major issue is the targets on the list @spockjerk make sense, but not knowing what the asking price of each is makes it harder to gauge where the sweet spot is on the list.

 

[bleedgreen]

If AA could focus, he could score 30.
If Foegele or McGinn could knock home a few more of the chances they get, they could...?

A more talented Foegele is probably the better phrase, but I feel like issues with getting that consistency are a major issue.

I think the other major issue is the targets on the list @spockjerk make sense, but not knowing what the asking price of each is makes it harder to gauge where the sweet spot is on the list.

I’m just thinking you have never really watched AA play if you compare him to McGinn and Foegele. There’s no comparison in terms of skill, skating, shooting, offensive vision and actual ability to make those things come together and happen. AA had 30 goals in one season, McGinn and Foegele have 50 combined in their careers. When talking about focusing in the skill it’s a completely different conversation. With AA I’m saying if we can get TT to buy in on focusing and playing both ways more consistently we may be able to with AA as well. I have no idea why AA isn’t scoring yet other than the team has struggled as a whole.

 

[Chrispy]

I’m just thinking you have never really watched AA play if you compare him to McGinn and Foegele. There’s no comparison in terms of skill, skating, shooting, offensive vision and actual ability to make those things come together and happen. AA had 30 goals in one season, McGinn and Foegele have 50 combined in their careers. When talking about focusing in the skill it’s a completely different conversation. With AA I’m saying if we can get TT to buy in on focusing and playing both ways more consistently we may be able to with AA as well. I have no idea why AA isn’t scoring yet other than the team has struggled as a whole.

I understand the ability is high, but I'm saying that I see the same AA in 19-20 that I saw in 16-17 and 17-18: lots of raw talent (speed, shot, vision all in an above average sized player) that comes together to deliver 30-35 points. It comes down to whether 18-19 is the step forward or the anomaly.

His shooting % is in the toilet early this year, so he should be able to rebound. But I don't think he is worth the rental price he will demand given the concerns about output.

 

[MinJaBen]

I understand the ability is high, but I'm saying that I see the same AA in 19-20 that I saw in 16-17 and 17-18: lots of raw talent (speed, shot, vision all in an above average sized player) that comes together to deliver 30-35 points. It comes down to whether 18-19 is the step forward or the anomaly.

His shooting % is in the toilet early this year, so he should be able to rebound. But I don't think he is worth the rental price he will demand given the concerns about output.

Is he a rental? I thought he was still and RFA?

 

[Chrispy]

Is he a rental? I thought he was still and RFA?

You're right, misread capfriendly at a glance. Arbitration eligible RFA this year.

 

[spockBokk]

But I don't think he is worth the rental price he will demand given the concerns about output.

Just wanted to point out that AA would not necessarily be a rental. After this year, he’d be an arbitration eligible RFA. He was a holdout a few years ago, so he probably be a tough sign.

The only rental, this early, I think the braintrust would be interested in is Toffoli, but there’s cap issues to sort through in potentially acquiring him. AA is a the only lefty I identified, but I think his versatility (has played C in a limited capacity before) would be valued by the braintrust, that, and the potential lower cost to acquire him due to a slow start.

I think they’re most likely to acquire a Ho-Sang or Puljujarvi type as their top 9 “fix” this year due to cap constraints alone.

 

[cptjeff]

I’d say Fleury is the much more attractive piece and more likely to be moved, but the fact that TVR is an RD could also factor in. In the end, I think the team would actually prefer to keep TVR and move Fleury. This is solely based on usage.

As far as who the targets are, I’d say any young, righty forward is what they’re looking for. At the top of their wishlist I’d think there’d be Kapanen and Kase. These 2 are also the least likely to be traded. Here’s what I think their wishlist looks like, sorted by who I think is the most likely acquired:

Puljujarvi
Ho-Sang
Athanasiou (not a righty, but could see them interested)
Toffoli
Virtanen
Roslovic
Kapanen
Kase

I'd still love Kase- Fleury obviously doesn't have the same value as an extended Faulk, but would Fleury +1st get that done?

 

[FreshSeabass]

Id be careful giving up a lot for Kase. He seems to be injured like a lot.

 

[bleedgreen]

They were only giving up Kase to get Faulk, with the obvious plan to extend him likely to similar figures to what he signed for. We don’t know if we had to add anything either.

Our add there would be significant. You’d think it would have to be a first but it wouldn’t happen anyways because it would seem Anaheim wants a legit top four guy in that scenario.

 

[Bunch of Jurcos]

Is it just me or have we been linked to Toffoli for as long as we were supposed to be trading Faulk?

I don't know how we do it but Roslovic would be really fun to watch in our lineup.

I wonder how big the difference between Bokk and Kase when it's all said and done. Were we unlucky that we didn't get Kase? It may be four or five years before we know the answer and I may be the only one on planet Earth that would still care.