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Player Discussion All Purpose Goaltending Thread

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Rowley Birkin said:
Im not sure about that - but even if Levi did make such unrealistic demands - Adams didn't have to end up in the situation he's in. He could/should have signed a more proven vet than Comrie & traded UPL already.
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How is it an unrealistic demand if it became reality? And it’s literally been reported and not refuted by anyone.

I’m not sure it’s realistic to believe Adams could trade UPL if he wanted to - trades take two parties so it’s not his decision unilaterally. Same goes for bringing someone in - they have to want to come to buffalo, you can’t force them.

I think you’re blaming Adams for something that really isn’t fully under his control. The only thing he can do is waive UPL, which I’m sure he’ll do by November.
 
Rowley Birkin said:
I think you're looking too much into style / technique. Yes it matters - but i don't believe it completely trumps overall ability.
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Ability is driven by style/technique.

And matching a goalie's strengths and weaknesses to the way the team plays in front of him matters a ton. The lack of matching a goalie to a team is one factor in why people think goaltending is voodoo when a goalie looks good behind one team and bad behind another.
 
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Doug Prishpreed said:
How is it an unrealistic demand if it became reality? And it’s literally been reported and not refuted by anyone.

I’m not sure it’s realistic to believe Adams could trade UPL if he wanted to - trades take two parties so it’s not his decision unilaterally. Same goes for bringing someone in - they have to want to come to buffalo, you can’t force them.

I think you’re blaming Adams for something that really isn’t fully under his control. The only thing he can do is waive UPL, which I’m sure he’ll do by November.
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It's unrealistic to assume a 20 yo with no pro experience would hold an NHL team to ransom, by demanding an immediate NHL role. Such a development path is unprecedented in modern times to begin with.

I'm pretty sure that he could have traded UPL. It's likely that Adams overvalued his player though, I'm assuming this is a possible reason why it hasn't happened. For his strengths - this is a tendancy that Adans has previously displayed. It worked out during the Eichel trade but this approach will also see him get burned. It probably cost him Chychrun, as an example.

There are possible signings/trades that I'm sure that Adams could have made. They likely didn't for a multitude of reasons, again possibly stemming from Adams over valuing / over rating his guys.
 
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Jim Bob said:
Ability is driven by style/technique.

And matching a goalie's strengths and weaknesses to the way the team plays in front of him matters a ton. It is a lack of matching a goalie to a team that one factor in why people think goaltending is voodoo when a goalie looks good behind one team and bad behind another.
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I don't think it matters to the absolute extent that you're arguing here.

EG Hellebuyck being an elite goalie. He likely wouldn't look as good behind this Sabres team as he does in Winnipeg - but i highly doubt he'd be anything close to a train wreck in Buffalo either.

People think goaltending is voodoo because many goalies can look both good and bad in individual stretches behind the SAME exact team ! How many times have we seen a guy get hot at the right time down the stretch or even in rhe playoffs? Or conversely - go cold at the wrong time? Having never played, I've always assumed it's 90+% mental.
 
Rowley Birkin said:
It's unrealistic to assume a 20 yo with no pro experience would hold an NHL team to ransom, by demanding an immediate NHL role. Such a development path is unprecedented in modern times to begin with.

I'm pretty sure that he could have traded UPL. It's likely that Adams overvalued his player though, I'm assuming this is a possible reason why it hasn't happened. For his strengths - this is a tendancy that Adans has previously displayed. It worked out during the Eichel trade but this approach will also see him get burned. It probably cost him Chychrun, as an example.

There are possible signings/trades that I'm sure that Adams could have made. They likely didn't for a multitude of reasons, again possibly stemming from Adams over valuing / over rating his guys.
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I think the lack of a UPL trade was mostly about how he is under team control beyond this season and Adams and company were hoping that he would step up and prove to be at least a decent NHL #2. As such, they did not see the point in trading UPL for a mid to late round draft pick. And that was the most likely return outside of someone like Tanner Pearson from the DeSmith deal. And I doubt Pearson is a guy that Adams had a lot of interest in.

The toughest part in goal is the fact that the bet on Comrie didn't hit the best case scenario and Levi is coming later to the party than the ideal would have been given the organizational timeline of growth and competitiveness.

None of the #1 goalies that everyone speculated about over the summer moved in trades. And there weren't any UFAs that changed teams and signed deals that made sense here.

It was a rough off season to want a short term #1 goalie or a nice upgrade over Comrie and UPL for 2-3 years.

Rowley Birkin said:
I don't think it matters to the absolute extent that you're arguing here.

EG Hellebuyck being an elite goalie. He likely wouldn't look as good behind this Sabres team as he does in Winnipeg - but i highly doubt he'd be anything close to a train wreck in Buffalo either.

People think goaltending is voodoo because many goalies can look both good and bad in individual stretches behind the SAME exact team ! How many times have we seen a guy get hot at the right time down the stretch or even in rhe playoffs? Or conversely - go cold at the wrong time? Having never played, I've always assumed it's 90+% mental.
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Helley would not be worth the trade package and the contract he would demand behind this team.

And having played and coached the position, it is nowhere near 90% mental. Luck is more than 10% of it just by itself.
 
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Rowley Birkin said:
It's unrealistic to assume a 20 yo with no pro experience would hold an NHL team to ransom, by demanding an immediate NHL role. Such a development path is unprecedented in modern times to begin with.

I'm pretty sure that he could have traded UPL. It's likely that Adams overvalued his player though, I'm assuming this is a possible reason why it hasn't happened. For his strengths - this is a tendancy that Adans has previously displayed. It worked out during the Eichel trade but this approach will also see him get burned. It probably cost him Chychrun, as an example.

There are possible signings/trades that I'm sure that Adams could have made. They likely didn't for a multitude of reasons, again possibly stemming from Adams over valuing / over rating his guys.
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Why is it unrealistic? He didn't hold them hostage -- he asked that he be able to start in Buffalo if he outplayed his competition, which usually isn't how it goes because if waivers, etc. He would usually have started in the AHL even if he was better, it happens all the time. It was reported nationally and no one challenged it because it makes sense, and is reflected in the outcome.

I wish he'd have gotten a better goalie, better defenseman, and gotten a winger upgrade over VO with all of the assets we have, but I see such an extreme dearth of trades or movement in this league that I question the number of legit options any GM has to improve their teams via trades, including Adams.

I 100% agree that he's probably overvaluing his prospects -- the fact that he didn't trade Kulich for Cychrun is infuriating, if that rumored deal was actually on the table.
 
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Jim Bob said:
I think the lack of a UPL trade was mostly about how he is under team control beyond this season and Adams and company were hoping that he would step up and prove to be at least a decent NHL #2. As such, they did not see the point in trading UPL for a mid to late round draft pick. And that was the most likely return outside of someone like Tanner Pearson from the DeSmith deal. And I doubt Pearson is a guy that Adams had a lot of interest in.

The toughest part in goal is the fact that the bet on Comrie didn't hit the best case scenario and Levi is coming later to the party than the ideal would have been given the organizational timeline of growth and competitiveness.

None of the #1 goalies that everyone speculated about over the summer moved in trades. And there weren't any UFAs that changed teams and signed deals that made sense here.

It was a rough off season to want a short term #1 goalie or a nice upgrade over Comrie and UPL for 2-3 years.
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If Adams was/is pinning his hopes on Levi being a capable #1 AND UPL being a capable #2 at the same time with no veteran presence... That seems like terrible planning to me.

As soon as he chose Levi as his guy - that was the time he needed to move on from UPL.

I agree that this offseason has been quiet - but Adams has had FAR longer to prepare for this.

Jim Bob said:
Helley would not be worth the trade package and the contract he would demand behind this team.
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I didn't suggest he would. I was simply stating that an elite goalie who didn't fit your archetype wouldn't suddenly become terrible if he played on our team.
Jim Bob said:
And having played and coached the position, it is nowhere near 90% mental. Luck is more than 10% of it just by itself.
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I'll take your word for that. But what's sure is that these guys don't suddenly become good (or bad) week to week.
 
Rowley Birkin said:
If Adams was/is pinning his hopes on Levi being a capable #1 AND UPL being a capable #2 at the same time with no veteran presence... That seems like terrible planning to me.

As soon as he chose Levi as his guy - that was the time he needed to move on from UPL.

I agree that this offseason has been quiet - but Adams has had FAR longer to prepare for this.



I didn't suggest he would. I was simply stating that an elite goalie who didn't fit your archetype wouldn't suddenly become terrible if he played on our team.

I'll take your word for that. But what's sure is that these guys don't suddenly become good (or bad) week to week.
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The game plan for this season changed last season.

I believe the game plan was that Comrie and UPL could be a decent 1/1A tandem in 2023-24 given the two year deals they gave both of them before last season, especially with UPL having a 2-way deal for last year and a 1-way deal for this year.

But, as last season played out, Comrie and UPL did not step up and make that plan work and Levi showed up and played in a way that he gave Adams and company way more confidence in him than Comrie or UPL.

I am sure that Adams would have loved to have been able to upgrade over Comrie and UPL to go with Levi. But, the trade market was not there for making a move, or a couple of moves, that solidified things with Levi. So, he was stuck with what he had added last off season.

And as far as week to week goes, every player, regardless of position, has variability. It just stands out more for goalies as they are the last line of defense and almost every mistake they make ends up in the back of a team's net.
 
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Sabresfansince1980 said:
I don't see a problem with an even rotation until one of them stands out or falls flat.
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So it would seem that anything close to an even workload is not part of the plan. Fine, but that makes it even less practical to have three goalies on the roster. If one or both Comrie/UPL are just going to collect rust, make a move and open up a roster spot.

Or...is the plan to see Levi sink or swim after a heavy workload early on, and then send him down if he sinks. Then keeping UPL and Comrie makes sense (as far as keeping two mediocre goalies ever makes sense).
 
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It's looking like Levi is not a unicorn. Shocker. I'm certainly not angry at him though.

Anyone think UPL or Comrie is capable of grabbing the reins?

What's Plan C? Kevyn? Bueller? Anyone?

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Deep Blue Metallic said:
It's looking like Levi is not a unicorn. Shocker. I'm certainly not angry at him though.
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Not a unicorn in that he isn't skipping the AHL without hiccups or not a unicorn in that he isn't still an outstanding G prospect? The former sure, but I don't think reasonable people expected otherwise. The latter is a bit ridiculous to say from a four game sample to start a season.
Jim Bob said:
I hope nobody wants Adams to call Craiger on Vladar after last night.
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Or any of the other magic bullets that people wanted to acquire to solve the net. Sure wish we traded the farm and gave Helle $9m for his .843 4.38 right now. Korpisalo a bit more magical at .894 3.53. Future HOFer John Gibson is at .902 3.06, so touché there.

Or maybe it's all small sample size BS on October 20th. Levi sleepwalked through the game last night. I think he'll learn from it and games like that will be few and far between.
 
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HOOats said:
Not a unicorn in that he isn't skipping the AHL without hiccups or not a unicorn in that he isn't still an outstanding G prospect? The former sure, but I don't think reasonable people expected otherwise. The latter is a bit ridiculous to say from a four game sample to start a season.
Or any of the other magic bullets that people wanted to acquire to solve the net. Sure wish we traded the farm and gave Helle $9m for his .843 4.38 right now. Korpisalo a bit more magical at .894 3.53. Future HOFer John Gibson is at .902 3.06, so touché there.

Or maybe it's all small sample size BS on October 20th. Levi sleepwalked through the game last night. I think he'll learn from it and games like that will be few and far between.
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I'll take Dustin Wolf or Juuse Saros right now... And Demko is looking pretty solid.
 
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HOOats said:
Wolf was untouchable and Saros may as well have been given their likely demands. What could we have had Demko for?
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Because Demko is a good goalie? Last season he suffered from injury, but even then he played better than UPL and Comrie. Before that, he had several stable seasons. He's looking great so far this season. We need goalie and we have assets.
 
HOOats said:
Not a unicorn in that he isn't skipping the AHL without hiccups or not a unicorn in that he isn't still an outstanding G prospect? The former sure, but I don't think reasonable people expected otherwise. The latter is a bit ridiculous to say from a four game sample to start a season.
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Levi is a superb *prospect* who belongs in the AHL. I'll be amazed if he doesn't end up there at some point this season. (If he doesn't, he will have proven himself to be a unicorn, and I'll happily admit I was an idiot for doubting him.)

And then the Sabres will be relying on a 28 year-old fringe backup with 47(!) games of NHL experience, and a once promising prospect with 46 NHL games who has not demonstrated any degree of consistent success at the pro level.

A season filled with playoff hopes is in jeopardy all because Adams apparently believes he has "3 NHL goalies".

What a cluster-f***.
 
i Habs fan coming in peace , i know you Sabres fans realy hate how Ukko look in the net. He had surgerys i think it slow down his progression but he is realy big and have a lot of potential, plus when you look the stats he was 17-11 in victory last year , so i'll give him a chance way before Comrie , anyhow good luck for tonight game!
 
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Rowley Birkin said:
I don't think it matters to the absolute extent that you're arguing here.

EG Hellebuyck being an elite goalie. He likely wouldn't look as good behind this Sabres team as he does in Winnipeg - but i highly doubt he'd be anything close to a train wreck in Buffalo either.

People think goaltending is voodoo because many goalies can look both good and bad in individual stretches behind the SAME exact team ! How many times have we seen a guy get hot at the right time down the stretch or even in rhe playoffs? Or conversely - go cold at the wrong time? Having never played, I've always assumed it's 90+% mental.
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They both matter.

Boston goalies always look great because the Bruins play 5 on a die defense with the center helping low before doing anything offensively. And they had 4 good defensive centers prior to this season. Tim Thomas to Tuukka Rask to Linus Ullmark, they protect their goalies really well. So the goalie is asked to make the first save and not kick out a ton of rebounds.

The Bruins don't need a movement goalie like Bobrovsky, who can legitimately steal games when he's hot. A team like Buffalo, a movement team that gives up a lot of chances, needs a movement goalie who can make more HDZ saves, saves on breakways, second chance saves, etc.

I'm not sure Hellebuyck would've been a great fit in Buffalo. He's great on angle and making the first save. The Sabres need someone more like Ryan Miller, who thrives under a heavier workload.
 
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