Confirmed with Link: All-Purpose Coyotes Arena Talk: [Update] Land Auction Cancelled, Meruelo waiving ownership rights.

[Coyotedroppings]

Not meaning to sound defensive, just trying to figure you out. There's definitely some disbelief in there though because I can't think of anything in this world that's entitled to support without earning it someway other than just existing. It's not how things typically work.

It's not about holding the team accountable for me. At all. It's about there being 32 NHL teams to choose from and other sports leagues to compete with that did everything better.

Like I said, there wasn't enough fans leaving their old teams to become Coyote fans (or even adopting them as their second favorite team.) That's not about being held accountable, that's about the Coyotes not doing enough to attract them. 20 years of being a troubled and unattractive sports franchise doesn't lure enough new fans.

Don't believe I ever mentioned accountability in conversation with you. This aspect of figuring me out is really quite simple and I'm surprised you're struggling. The simplicity is that if someone is an NHL hockey fan, wants to be able to watch NHL games live and they live here, they'd best show up and support, or the team leaves. I've been indirectly warning of this happening for over a decade now and I'm no Nostradamus.

It sounds to me that perhaps you personally (or at least in your example above) care about winning and winning alone, when you mention all the other options to spend on entertainment, that do everything better. That's fine, there are a lot of fringe fans, in fact there are so many here that we lost our team.

If anyone got defensive this is why, not because of your opinion. You egged it on and now act like you don't get it.

No, I get it alright, the only thing I don't get are the excuses. Folks didn't show up, team is gone, had folks shown up, team would be here. Lotsa reason's why it's difficult, but that doesn't change the facts.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Don't believe I ever mentioned accountability in conversation with you. This aspect of figuring me out is really quite simple and I'm surprised you're struggling. The simplicity is that if someone is an NHL hockey fan, wants to be able to watch NHL games live and you live here, they'd best show up and support, or the team leaves. I've been indirectly warning of this happening for over a decade now and I'm no Nostradamus.

It sounds to me that perhaps you personally (or at least in your example above) care about winning and winning alone, when you mention all the other options to spend on entertainment, that do everything better. That's fine, there are a lot of fringe fans, in fact there are so many here that we lost our team.


No, I get it alright, the only thing I don't get are the excuses. Folks didn't show up, team is gone, had folks shown up, team would be here. Lotsa reason's why it's difficult, but that doesn't change the facts.

You say you don't get the excuses while completely absolving the team of any responsibility through an excuse that puts it all on the fanbase. It's not a fanbase's responsibility to ensure the success of a sports franchise. That's on the people getting paid to make things happen.

They have to earn every dollar, they're not entitled to it.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The Coyotes organization struggled mightily for almost their entire existence in Phoenix. Obstructed views, false starts and failure in Scottsdale deal, placing an arena in the far west valley about 15 years too early, bankruptcy, NHL ownership, relocation threats pretty much yearly for over a decade, fights with Goldwater, fights with Glendale, literally leaving the West side right as it's finally becoming viable, etc. Now couple that with very little on ice success and zero superstars (love Shane but even he knows this is true), it's not surprising the arena wasn't near capacity on the regular. Now factor in the few times they did have on ice success it was still marred by shit like relocation (literally one year news broke DURING THE PLAYOFFS the Coyotes were relocating) and even worse, a god damn lockout on the heels of their Western Conference finals appearance. Those are not excuses, they are reasons. Honestly I don't think you could've handled a new market worse, the Coyotes are definitely a case study in how not to run a sports franchise and the fan base has pretty much zero to do with it.

As I type this out, it's pretty amazing how many Coyotes fans there actually are considering the hockey gods clearly f***ing hate us. Hey we're finally in the playoffs....Doan jacks his shoulder. Hey we made the WCF....league locks out. Hey let's see if we can get there again....you ever heard of Rocky Mountain Spotted fever?! Holy shit we're almost certainly getting McDavid or Eichel...Edmonton laughs in the face of statistics, jumps several spots up and get's the #1 overall, their f***ing 4th one in 6 years.

So yeah, the no true scottsman fallacy promoted by a few is just that, a fallacy.

What you describe are the reason's it's difficult here, not reasons to give up and quit, in fact all the more reason to support, if you love the game and want to keep your NHL franchise.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

When the Coyote's first moved to the Valley, there were plenty of fans and a good team. Since then the fans have been kicked in the balls, slapped in the ace, had a boot or two shoved up their ass, lied to for years. You can't keep on asking and not giving. IF you go to a show and don't like what you saw, you don't go back 40 more times to watch the same show because you want to support the theatre. You want something where you feel your entertainment dollar was well spent. The fans aren't to blame for this mess. It's been 25 yrs. and we had what, two or three good years to watch hockey, and even then there was constant threat of moving etc. We all praise Bettman for keeping the team here, but he and the NHL screwed up by not running the team like a NHL team so the Coyotes could attract a solid buyer.

Ahhh, so you're fair weather then, only come out when the sun is shinning and the team is winning, got it.

I'd counter your 25 years of mostly bad with: We weren't bad enough to get high draft picks because ownership was so focused on trying to appease this fickle fan base that it was too competitive for it's own good..... aka better draft picks because they could afford to lose, which they couldn't because of the fickle fanbase. I went over that twice, just for you Jakey!

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I think that whether you're a fan of Meruelo or not, if you want hockey in AZ you have to be rooting for him. If Meruelo doesn't get it done, I don't see any circumstances where the NHL comes back to AZ.

I don't have to be rooting for him or his idiot son whatsoever. The NHL clearly would rather have someone besides Meruelo bringing a team back here. And there's very little common sense in backing a guy who, in two decades of absolutely the shittiest decision-making in sports history, was so bad at making choices that he was directly responsible for getting the team relocated when bankruptcies, a hostile takeover bid, and a group of small-time grifters who were in it for the public subsidy money couldn't accomplish the feat.

I was all set to give him a shot at redemption until I discovered that he's still got Alex Jr. running the show and that they were going to try to rename the Roadrunners the Coyotes. There is absolutely nothing about the Meruelo situation that gives me any hope whatsoever of them bringing back a team at all, much less bringing one back that I can cheer for.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

You say you don't get the excuses while completely absolving the team of any responsibility through an excuse that puts it all on the fanbase. It's not a fanbase's responsibility to ensure the success of a sports franchise. That's on the people getting paid to make things happen.

They have to earn every dollar, they're not entitled to it.

Forgive me, but you'll need to show me where I said they were entitled. I've merely cut this down to the bare bolts, removing all excuses. Had the fans shown up, the team would still be here, despite it all.

You say they need to earn our dollars, that's fine, but where did it get us?

Were the two 28 year sth's that dropped the puck for the final game stupid? Being duped by the team? Or, did they just love hockey? We needed more of them and less fair weather, bandwagon jumping, root for the teams from the cities they used to live in, nutlless puking excuses for hockey fans.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I don't have to be rooting for him or his idiot son whatsoever. The NHL clearly would rather have someone besides Meruelo bringing a team back here. And there's very little common sense in backing a guy who, in two decades of absolutely the shittiest decision-making in sports history, was so bad at making choices that he was directly responsible for getting the team relocated when bankruptcies, a hostile takeover bid, and a group of small-time grifters who were in it for the public subsidy money couldn't accomplish the feat.

I was all set to give him a shot at redemption until I discovered that he's still got Alex Jr. running the show and that they were going to try to rename the Roadrunners the Coyotes. There is absolutely nothing about the Meruelo situation that gives me any hope whatsoever of them bringing back a team at all, much less bringing one back that I can cheer for.

I think it was more an example of the NHL saving face, not wanting playoffs in the dink rink. Obviously I'm no fan of the asshat's but I do think they're the only hope of getting a team back in any reasonable timeframe. My crystal ball tells me the best case scenario w/o the asshat's is ten years and that 'still a big maybe. Thing is, I figure to be dead in roughly 23 years, so losing a decade or more isn't something I'm interested in. The wife has told me she'd move to Cranberry PA (about 25 min. from PPG Arena), but wants two more years here, so if the asshat's let us down once again, I just may get cooler weather and a real franchise to follow. My push was for one of the incredibly nice communities roughly 1/2 hour north and west of Detroit, but I'll take what I can get. We'll see.

 

[SniperHF]

As I type this out, it's pretty amazing how many Coyotes fans there actually are considering the hockey gods clearly f***ing hate us. Hey we're finally in the playoffs....Doan jacks his shoulder. Hey we made the WCF....league locks out. Hey let's see if we can get there again....you ever heard of Rocky Mountain Spotted fever?! Holy shit we're almost certainly getting McDavid or Eichel...Edmonton laughs in the face of statistics, jumps several spots up and get's the #1 overall, their f***ing 4th one in 6 years.

This is correct most everything else over-thinking it and marginal.
People like good teams. People don't like bad teams. They'll tolerate a bad heritage team, which the Coyotes are not. The Coyotes were a bad team almost all the time and never got any breaks basically other than existing, if such torture is considered to be a break.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Forgive me, but you'll need to show me where I said they were entitled

Forgive me, but what I recall is trying to convey that your entire premise that the team can do no wrong and the fans should show up no matter what and that nothing the team does should ever push people away (because hockey is the greatest game on earth) is an entitled way of thinking. Not that you’ve called anyone entitled.

Had the fans shown up, the team would still be here, despite it all.

If the team had an arena, the team would still be here, despite it all.

I think that "despite it all" says a lot. It suggests that we've had to put up with a lot to stay fans of the Coyotes and explains why there isn't more of us.

Were the two 28 year sth's that dropped the puck for the final game stupid? Being duped by the team? Or, did they just love hockey? We needed more of them and less fair weather, bandwagon jumping, root for the teams from the cities they used to live in, nutlless puking excuses for hockey fans.

Stupid? I don't think that anyone is stupid for supporting this team. I’m just not shocked that more people didn’t support this team “despite it all.” I do think that your comment from yesterday, “the greatest game on earth, thus it shouldn’t even require such ‘effort,’” was silly though. That's just not how things work and it's heavily biased.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

While I agree with you, I would say there is a difference between being a fan of team and being a fan of the sport and thus symphetizing and rooting for the local team.
Both are valid and I think that @Coyotedroppings is the latter kind of fan.

Oh, definitely. I'm only questioning his premise that the team shouldn't have to earn it's fans. That they should've just shown up, just because hockey is cool and it's all their fault.

I've got no other beef

 

[Matias Maccete]

It's interesting, I can only see one side of this debate.

 

[LAIslanderFan]

I don't have to be rooting for him or his idiot son whatsoever. The NHL clearly would rather have someone besides Meruelo bringing a team back here. And there's very little common sense in backing a guy who, in two decades of absolutely the shittiest decision-making in sports history, was so bad at making choices that he was directly responsible for getting the team relocated when bankruptcies, a hostile takeover bid, and a group of small-time grifters who were in it for the public subsidy money couldn't accomplish the feat.

I was all set to give him a shot at redemption until I discovered that he's still got Alex Jr. running the show and that they were going to try to rename the Roadrunners the Coyotes. There is absolutely nothing about the Meruelo situation that gives me any hope whatsoever of them bringing back a team at all, much less bringing one back that I can cheer for.

Well, Meruelo is the only option to bring the NHL back. I guess given the choice, your choice would be to not have a hockey team in Arizona. That's most certainly not my choice.

One more thing I'd like to point out. The AZ team going forward in Utah is going to be one of the better teams for years to come. They have some of the best young prospects in the NHL and they have more draft picks in the coming years than any other team. When Meruelo purchased the team, he had 2 basic options. Go out and spend money on free agents and try and put a band aid on a depleted roster with very little in the prospect pool (which almost all new owners do), or have patience and try and build the team from scratch. Obviously in the GM hiring process, philosophically he liked what Bill Armstrong had in mind. Start all over. Armstrong suggested taking 4-5 years and building within.
That translates to 4-5 years of losing seasons, which is going to affect the bottom line. Meruelo had to be open to losing money. That starts at the box office and incudes marketing, corporate sponsorship, TV packages, etc.. I don't know many owners, if any that would have agreed to that. In my opinion it showed a lot of savvy and was an unselfish choice. Spend 4-5 years being awful for long term success. If you look at most new owner of franchises, they just start throwing money around to satisfy their ego and think they can turn a franchise around over night (see the NY Mets) and it seldom works. I know what kind of response I'm going to get. It was BILL ARMSTRONG! Well, BA does none of that without Meruelo's blessing. Meruelo is the one taking all the chances, both financially and professionally, not BA! Meruelo was in fact building a very strong team on the ice. You'll see it come to fruition over the next few years. To say Meruelo doesn't deserve the credit, is to be dishonest.

 

[TheLegend]

It's interesting, I can only see one side of this debate.

Chicken vs egg debates are often that.

 

[RemoAZ]

Well, Meruelo is the only option to bring the NHL back. I guess given the choice, your choice would be to not have a hockey team in Arizona. That's most certainly not my choice.

One more thing I'd like to point out. The AZ team going forward in Utah is going to be one of the better teams for years to come. They have some of the best young prospects in the NHL and they have more draft picks in the coming years than any other team. When Meruelo purchased the team, he had 2 basic options. Go out and spend money on free agents and try and put a band aid on a depleted roster with very little in the prospect pool (which almost all new owners do), or have patience and try and build the team from scratch. Obviously in the GM hiring process, philosophically he liked what Bill Armstrong had in mind. Start all over. Armstrong suggested taking 4-5 years and building within.
That translates to 4-5 years of losing seasons, which is going to affect the bottom line. Meruelo had to be open to losing money. That starts at the box office and incudes marketing, corporate sponsorship, TV packages, etc.. I don't know many owners, if any that would have agreed to that. In my opinion it showed a lot of savvy and was an unselfish choice. Spend 4-5 years being awful for long term success. If you look at most new owner of franchises, they just start throwing money around to satisfy their ego and think they can turn a franchise around over night (see the NY Mets) and it seldom works. I know what kind of response I'm going to get. It was BILL ARMSTRONG! Well, BA does none of that without Meruelo's blessing. Meruelo is the one taking all the chances, both financially and professionally, not BA! Meruelo was in fact building a very strong team on the ice. You'll see it come to fruition over the next few years. To say Meruelo doesn't deserve the credit, is to be dishonest.

Yeah but we got to this point and NOW the team is gone. It couldn't have happened in any other time in this team's history and felt worse. All the garbage hockey we've had to watch over the years with scrap heap vets getting the bulk of the minutes. All the failed draft picks. We finally have a guy running the show that committed to building a team the right way. We should be going into this season as excited as we've ever been because for the very FIRST time we had a young team full of talent and potential. Instead, we're digging the knife out of our back. All because this dickhead had to strong arm Glendale before he even had a new arena secured. So go ahead and give him credit for getting the team on the ice on the right track. That got him maximum ROA and us the final in a long line of kicks in the nuts.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Well, Meruelo is the only option to bring the NHL back. I guess given the choice, your choice would be to not have a hockey team in Arizona. That's most certainly not my choice.

If that was the only possible choice available, then yes, I'd be on the side of not having a hockey team in Arizona if it is run by Alex Meruelo Jr.

But - and this is stupendously important for context - that is not the only choice out there.

I know what kind of response I'm going to get. It was BILL ARMSTRONG! Well, BA does none of that without Meruelo's blessing.

What you're describing is literally a rubber-stamp situation. Neither Meruelo nor Meruelo Jr. have shown any indication whatsoever that they even know who their players were, much less the intricacies of actual hockey operations. The fact that Meruelo "allowed" Bill Armstrong to have a free rein in hockey ops is just as easily explained by saying that Alex Sr. had no interest in dealing with the sports franchise on a day-to-day basis and only cared about the bottom line. Turfing the team to his son certainly bolsters that theory over the theory that Meruelo was anything like a committed, interested owner.

This mythmaking around Meruelo and his supposed direct involvement in the team is absolutely a result of Meruelo's gaslighting. None of the evidence we have supports anything close to the idea that Meruelo showed any sort of savvy or common sense in the operation of the Coyotes.

 

[Jakey53]

I don't have to be rooting for him or his idiot son whatsoever. The NHL clearly would rather have someone besides Meruelo bringing a team back here. And there's very little common sense in backing a guy who, in two decades of absolutely the shittiest decision-making in sports history, was so bad at making choices that he was directly responsible for getting the team relocated when bankruptcies, a hostile takeover bid, and a group of small-time grifters who were in it for the public subsidy money couldn't accomplish the feat.

I was all set to give him a shot at redemption until I discovered that he's still got Alex Jr. running the show and that they were going to try to rename the Roadrunners the Coyotes. There is absolutely nothing about the Meruelo situation that gives me any hope whatsoever of them bringing back a team at all, much less bringing one back that I can cheer for.

Like I said before, love him or hate him, AM was the ONLY owner with $$$$ that stepped up and bought the team. Is he perfect? Of course not, but either is anyone else. He was losing north of $60 mil. a year but still hired BA, gave him the money to run the team like a regular NHL club ever in the existence of the franchise. AM came into a tornado of a situation, then you add in the plandemic, the Gila Rive BS, Tempe stupidity, Arizona political climate, etc. All I hear is piddly assed BS like allegedly not paying his hotel bills, complaining of what Jr. role is in all this etc. Will or can AM pull this off? Who knows, but instead of complaining on this board maybe try emailing the COG mayor or other political figures letting them know of your feeling. Continuous complaining on this board is a exercise in futility.

Well, Meruelo is the only option to bring the NHL back. I guess given the choice, your choice would be to not have a hockey team in Arizona. That's most certainly not my choice.

One more thing I'd like to point out. The AZ team going forward in Utah is going to be one of the better teams for years to come. They have some of the best young prospects in the NHL and they have more draft picks in the coming years than any other team. When Meruelo purchased the team, he had 2 basic options. Go out and spend money on free agents and try and put a band aid on a depleted roster with very little in the prospect pool (which almost all new owners do), or have patience and try and build the team from scratch. Obviously in the GM hiring process, philosophically he liked what Bill Armstrong had in mind. Start all over. Armstrong suggested taking 4-5 years and building within.
That translates to 4-5 years of losing seasons, which is going to affect the bottom line. Meruelo had to be open to losing money. That starts at the box office and incudes marketing, corporate sponsorship, TV packages, etc.. I don't know many owners, if any that would have agreed to that. In my opinion it showed a lot of savvy and was an unselfish choice. Spend 4-5 years being awful for long term success. If you look at most new owner of franchises, they just start throwing money around to satisfy their ego and think they can turn a franchise around over night (see the NY Mets) and it seldom works. I know what kind of response I'm going to get. It was BILL ARMSTRONG! Well, BA does none of that without Meruelo's blessing. Meruelo is the one taking all the chances, both financially and professionally, not BA! Meruelo was in fact building a very strong team on the ice. You'll see it come to fruition over the next few years. To say Meruelo doesn't deserve the credit, is to be dishonest.

Great post and 100% correct.

 

[Jagged Ice]

Yeah but we got to this point and NOW the team is gone. It couldn't have happened in any other time in this team's history and felt worse. All the garbage hockey we've had to watch over the years with scrap heap vets getting the bulk of the minutes. All the failed draft picks. We finally have a guy running the show that committed to building a team the right way. We should be going into this season as excited as we've ever been because for the very FIRST time we had a young team full of talent and potential. Instead, we're digging the knife out of our back. All because this dickhead had to strong arm Glendale before he even had a new arena secured. So go ahead and give him credit for getting the team on the ice on the right track. That got him maximum ROA and us the final in a long line of kicks in the nuts.

We have one more major kick in the nuts coming when Utah wins the cup once these kids mature. We're going to hear all about it taking a real market to accomplish this, and that Arizona isn't one even though the teardown and build happened here under the care of GMBA.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

My "entire premise" is that had fans shown, the team would be here, nothing more, nothing less.

That premise is, sadly, unfounded. Because full barns wouldn't have affected the Tempe vote, and it wouldn't have affected Meruelo's move east while detonating a metaphorical IED in Glendale, and it certainly wouldn't have affected the NHL's discomfort at the team playing at Mullett.

You could respond by saying, "Well, would any of that have happened if the team had sold out every game?" And we'll never know the answer to that. But we can make inferences - the team would have had to move out of AWA no matter what because of the financial model there. The team would have had to move to Glendale because city politics killed the Los Arcos deal. Jerry Moyes would still have run the team financially into the ground even with sellouts. Etc.

But the larger point is that there is no single cause that we can point to for the team's relocation. Not even Meruelo - he's just the guy who lit the fuse on a shit-ton of high explosives. The fact is that this team was on borrowed time from probably the second it arrived here because it was, in the grand scheme, a shitshow from day one.

That's why I would rather seen no team than a Meruelo-led team. I've already seen what happens when a franchise has an unavoidable expiration date. I want to see a team that has some expectation of permanence. Meruelo does not in any way offer that, or even imply it, except for his gaslighting.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

That premise is, sadly, unfounded. Because full barns wouldn't have affected the Tempe vote, and it wouldn't have affected Meruelo's move east while detonating a metaphorical IED in Glendale, and it certainly wouldn't have affected the NHL's discomfort at the team playing at Mullett.

You could respond by saying, "Well, would any of that have happened if the team had sold out every game?" And we'll never know the answer to that. But we can make inferences - the team would have had to move out of AWA no matter what because of the financial model there. The team would have had to move to Glendale because city politics killed the Los Arcos deal. Jerry Moyes would still have run the team financially into the ground even with sellouts. Etc.

But the larger point is that there is no single cause that we can point to for the team's relocation. Not even Meruelo - he's just the guy who lit the fuse on a shit-ton of high explosives. The fact is that this team was on borrowed time from probably the second it arrived here because it was, in the grand scheme, a shitshow from day one.

That's why I would rather seen no team than a Meruelo-led team. I've already seen what happens when a franchise has an unavoidable expiration date. I want to see a team that has some expectation of permanence. Meruelo does not in any way offer that, or even imply it, except for his gaslighting.

Not sure you can make that Jerry Moyes claim, even if true better attendance would have morphed into interest of a qualified owner. One could also argue that AM would have had no need to move east, if the support had been there all along.

I don’t think we’ll ever see a team survive here long term, too pathetic a fanbase.

 

[TheLegend]

Chicken…..

Egg…….

Chicken…..

Egg…….

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Chicken…..

Egg…….

Chicken…..

Egg…….

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Yep, if we ever do get a team back, folks best show up, or we'll be right back here!

 

[Dirty Old Man]

OMG, those evil Peg BoH spies are still hanging around here? Shoo! I say, shoo!

 

[The Feckless Puck]

OMG, those evil Peg BoH spies are still hanging around here? Shoo! I say, shoo!

One can never be fully free of morons, man - especially on social media...

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Phoenix/Metro population
4,948,203

Glendale Arena
17,799