Coach Discussion: All Purpose Coaching Thread Part III

[KingBogo]

There in lies the subjective nature and inherent biases that exist with regards to determining what is "earned". Rewarding effort more so then results has been prevalent for a long time but doesn't mean it is what should be happening.

But that is hockey culture, and how complete commitment to the game as a professional gets passed on from one generation of hockey player to the next. Most prospects find their way to the NHL, never having to give the daily 100% commitment to every aspect of the game day after day. Many are cocky and used to having things handed to them. Any coach including Maurice knows that as soon as a talented young prospect starts committing himself like the fading vet he will pass him on the depth chart. To get them there they put the "gud pro" on a pedestal not because of their talent but what the want the young player to do everyday as a professional. In turn those prospects will one day hold onto careers by being the "gud pro" that all coaches love. Some will never transition and piss away careers. Some will survive on pure talent and but never maximize their potential.

 

[surixon]

But that is hockey culture, and how complete commitment to the game as a professional gets passed on from one generation of hockey player to the next. Most prospects find their way to the NHL, never having to give the daily 100% commitment to every aspect of the game day after day. Many are cocky and used to having things handed to them. Any coach including Maurice knows that as soon as a talented young prospect starts committing himself like the fading vet he will pass him on the depth chart. To get them there they put the "gud pro" on a pedestal not because of their talent but what the want the young player to do everyday as a professional. In turn those prospects will one day hold onto careers by being the "gud pro" that all coaches love. Some will never transition and piss away careers. Some will survive on pure talent and but never maximize their potential.

The problem there is that very few good young players look up to fourth line players and try to emulate them. You need very good vets that are skilled and work hard to set the tone. The unskilled plugs of the world don't bring much to a team.

 

[KingBogo]

The problem there is that very few good young players look up to fourth line players and try to emulate them. You need very good vets that are skilled and work hard to set the tone. The unskilled plugs of the world don't bring much to a team.

I don't believe that to be true. You would need to be extremely aragant as a 18 - 20 year old not to look up to a veteran player that had worked his way through an NHL career.

 

[Jets 31]

The problem there is that very few good young players look up to fourth line players and try to emulate them. You need very good vets that are skilled and work hard to set the tone. The unskilled plugs of the world don't bring much to a team.

With the salaries the young guys get now it's very hard to have a team full of talented veterans in a hard cap league . You are gonna have less talented grinders on your team .

 

[surixon]

I don't believe that to be true. You would need to be extremely aragant as a 18 - 20 year old not to look up to a veteran player that had worked his way through an NHL career.

Go read about what happened in Edmonton with the kids vs Ferrance etc.

What's important is that you can actually play the game well. Players aren't stupid and millenials aren't willing to do the whole buy your time thing while inferior players get ice time.

 

[KingBogo]

Go read about what happened in Edmonton with the kids vs Ferrance etc.

What's important is that you can actually play the game well. Players aren't stupid and millenials aren't willing to do the whole buy your time thing while inferior players get ice time.

Again fully disagree. If they hold on long enough every player will eventually be a "plug" in fans eyes. Around here even a player like Wheeler is on is way to that status on HF boards. Despite being a high 1st round pick, all star game appearances and 90+ point seasons. IMO players coming in respect a guy who has played a dozen seasons and close to 600 games 200+ points, and played along side hall of famers (Letestu). They may want to beat them out of a job but they will respect them for what they have accomplished. Not sure why everyone around here thinks these young guys coming in all lack they character to respect those that came before them and be willing to fight for a position.

 

[surixon]

Again fully disagree. If they hold on long enough every player will eventually be a "plug" in fans eyes. Around here even a player like Wheeler is on is way to that status on HF boards. Despite being a high 1st round pick, all star game appearances and 90+ point seasons. IMO players coming in respect a guy who has played a dozen seasons and close to 600 games 200+ points, and played along side hall of famers (Letestu). They may want to beat them out of a job but they will respect them for what they have accomplished. Not sure why everyone around here thinks these young guys coming in all lack they character to respect those that came before them and be willing to fight for a position.

I am talking about the career plugs not former all stars on the decline. Players will absolutely listen to what a former st at has to say. I'm not sure many skilled players will put that much stock on what a Mark Stuart has to say.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Go read about what happened in Edmonton with the kids vs Ferrance etc.

What's important is that you can actually play the game well. Players aren't stupid and millenials aren't willing to do the whole buy your time thing while inferior players get ice time.

Yes, you should go read what happened in Edmonton, cause its not what you think it was.

Those kids hadnt a clue how to consistently be pros, and when you allow the millennials to run the roost, without clear guidance from players that understand the importance of consistency, you end up with an Edmonton type crap show.

Ferrance was a pro on the decline, but he had over 900 NHL games and you do not get to that level without bringing it day in and day out. If a millenial has any clue, you shut your mouth and listen to a pro with 900 plus games under their belt, regardless of the skill differential.

This is what was going on in Edmonton:

Next Ference got into a second issue, the lack of commitment of some of the younger Oilers players. “I think the most frustrating part for me as a player — I went in there straight from Boston — was that talk is cheap. I went in and Dallas Eakins is a fantastic coach. There’s another whipping boy who got raked over the coals. There’s a fantastic coach that was dealt just a pure crap hand in a team that would actually listen.
“You had a group of players that talked about how they wanted to make the playoffs, and talked about how sick they were of losing, and then by Game Three after losing 6-1, they’re straight out to the bar to three in the morning, lighting up the night life scene in Edmonton. Like, come on, give me a break. It was to the point where it was ridiculous where the lifestyle was way more important than actually playing the game and making the playoffs. Like I said, talk is cheap.

“Even in practice, I came from a group where you’re practising against guys like (Patrice) Bergeron or (Zdeno) Chara, and you’re going at each other, like game intensity — and that is how you get better. That is how you be a playoff contender. That is how you be a champion. And you try to instil some of those values. We had some other guys who had been on the playoff teams and they had the same frustration. They’d come and practice hard and there was a group of guys there that had like, it was too cool to try hard. Derogatory terms for trying too hard in practice. That’s the culture, right.
“How do you break that? You come in and try to disrupt and so I think that over the years there have been attempts to disrupt, whether it was Eakins or I come in there, or Pronger, or whoever it was, different people come in and disrupt but I know personally it was really hard for me. You come in as an older guy but far from being one of the better players on the team. So you can be a leader with experience but I’m not a game changer. I’m like a #4 or #5 defenceman. So your voice only goes so far with people that only respect how good your toe drag is and whether or not you’re out partying. So your voice doesn’t carry much weight with people that don’t put value on those aspects I was bringing from Boston, or that Dallas was trying to instil in the team. So it was not only frustrating, but it really pissed me off because it’s was a waste of years of your NHL career and you never get those back, and you see a coach like Dallas get really so unfairly treated.

Like I said, was he perfect? No. And he’d be the first to admit that. He’d rather do some of those things different. But taking the blame? What are you supposed to do with a culture like that.”

 

[Howard Chuck]

I agree, of course -- but I think holding PoMo to anything he says in a press scrum, even the old chestnuts, like "earning the keys to the car" or fretting about how to get those durned PB guys into a game, is like trying to bail out a boat with a sieve.

KingBogo, in a recent comparison between Babcock and Maurice on these very boards, lauded PM as first and foremost a "communicator," and I'd agree. He's a very good communicator. And he's also a politician. I think it's important that his players trust him -- as many seem to -- but I don't, which is as it should be, perhaps, for a fan. I think there's a lot more content in a Vincent interview, but then no one pays the same kind of attention to an AHL coach. I expect you learn a lot about media management in HC school.

I have no idea who is a better coach, Maurice or Vincent, although I suspect that would be Maurice, but I really enjoy Vincent's interviews more from an information point of view. Maurice doesn't really say much, just uses very broad and vague phrases, whereas I get much more real information from Vincent.

No comment on ability, just an observation

 

[Howard Chuck]

Yes, you should go read what happened in Edmonton, cause its not what you think it was.

Those kids hadnt a clue how to consistently be pros, and when you allow the millennials to run the roost, without clear guidance from players that understand the importance of consistency, you end up with an Edmonton type crap show.

Ferrance was a pro on the decline, but he had over 900 NHL games and you do not get to that level without bringing it day in and day out. If a millenial has any clue, you shut your mouth and listen to a pro with 900 plus games under their belt, regardless of the skill differential.

This is what was going on in Edmonton:

That's great insight there and probably happens on more teams than we like to admit. Thanks for that, probably the most eye opening piece I've read in quite a while. It fits perfectly when you look at how the Oilers look (and a lot of other teams) and how the Bruins look. Just a completely different work ethic and dedication to the game above all else.

When my kids were playing pretty competitive sports, I would tell them that you can have physical gifts and ability gifts, but the players that are really going to be outstanding are those who take those gifts and work as hard as those who don't have them.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

That's great insight there and probably happens on more teams than we like to admit. Thanks for that, probably the most eye opening piece I've read in quite a while. It fits perfectly when you look at how the Oilers look (and a lot of other teams) and how the Bruins look. Just a completely different work ethic and dedication to the game above all else.

When my kids were playing pretty competitive sports, I would tell them that you can have physical gifts and ability gifts, but the players that are really going to be outstanding are those who take those gifts and work as hard as those who don't have them.

Thanks

But its mind blowing that some actually looked at what Ferrance's was trying to influence in Edmonton, with what was a clearly a dysfunctional team, and consider it a negative because his skill level was not at the right level.

It also speaks to why that team has been an absolute joke for the better part of the past decade.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Thanks

But its mind blowing that some actually looked at what Ferrance's was trying to influence in Edmonton, with what was a clearly a dysfunctional team, and consider it a negative because his skill level was not at the right level.

It also speaks to why that team has been an absolute joke for the better part of the past decade.

I agree. Same with Hendricks with his time there. McDavid just gushed about him and how much he helped with understanding leadership. Hendricks also had a huge impact on the Jets from a leadership perspective.

I've really changed my mind about 'glue guys' over the past few years, as long as they don't play huge roles on the ice.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I agree, of course -- but I think holding PoMo to anything he says in a press scrum, even the old chestnuts, like "earning the keys to the car" or fretting about how to get those durned PB guys into a game, is like trying to bail out a boat with a sieve.

KingBogo, in a recent comparison between Babcock and Maurice on these very boards, lauded PM as first and foremost a "communicator," and I'd agree. He's a very good communicator. And he's also a politician. I think it's important that his players trust him -- as many seem to -- but I don't, which is as it should be, perhaps, for a fan. I think there's a lot more content in a Vincent interview, but then no one pays the same kind of attention to an AHL coach. I expect you learn a lot about media management in HC school.

I disagree. He sounds like a very good communicator. But he is not. He is a fake communicator. It isn't about media management. That is what Chevy does. He never says anything at all. Maurice does say things - and they are not true. BS'ing is not good communication.

 

[rkp]

The comments that were made about babcock in leaf forums could and have been and are made about pomo...usage..vet biased,defensive strategy, etc., basically both are old school type of coaches not being able to adapt to the new era of skilled players.... they both use the same schtick, defence first then offence, but that philosophy is old school and it seems most progressive young coaches coming into the nhl today use the potent offense they have a part of their defensive strategy, spending time in the o-zone, puck possession. Schief at the end of the season presser after the playoff loss said or made the statement "keep it simple"....all the ruffled feathers which sounds very familiar to the comments made about the leaf players regarding babcock. If the only motivational strategy pomo has is ruffling feathers and calling out in public the young skilled players while neglecting to coach the older vets on the team, doesn't sound like a winning formula in the long run. Never mind the positive record this season so far is due to the goaltending...and how long is that going to last. With the number of shots the goaltending is taking, come March/April, will he be fully equipped mentally/physically to endure the grind of the playoffs if the Jets make it.

Never mind putting Copp on the first PP...come on now...how does that make any sense other than an obvious personality split, which seems to have occurred a number of times regarding some of the youth...is Niku that much worse than Sbisa....Bitteto, seriously....how about the added dimension of offensive skill on the o-zone Niku would bring during the PP.

 

[rkp]

We have heard versions of this PB line about various players for years — including this year, with reference to Heinola and Gus (I’d actually failed to note that Potato was back from injury).

Given that Sbisa has barely practiced or played at the NHL level in the past 2 years and has apparently welded down his spot, maybe the PB is less harmful to gritty vets than youngsters?

I get the logic of not messing with a winning lineup — but that shouldn’t be mistaken for a related homily — if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it — IMO.

Do you actually believe the Jets have a winning record because of the lineup on defence??? Everyone knows its because of hellybuck...period.....look at the number of shots hellybuck faces.

 

[Al Camino]

I agree, of course -- but I think holding PoMo to anything he says in a press scrum, even the old chestnuts, like "earning the keys to the car" or fretting about how to get those durned PB guys into a game, is like trying to bail out a boat with a sieve.

KingBogo, in a recent comparison between Babcock and Maurice on these very boards, lauded PM as first and foremost a "communicator," and I'd agree. He's a very good communicator. And he's also a politician. I think it's important that his players trust him -- as many seem to -- but I don't, which is as it should be, perhaps, for a fan. I think there's a lot more content in a Vincent interview, but then no one pays the same kind of attention to an AHL coach. I expect you learn a lot about media management in HC school.

Totally agree. He can certainly talk. Not sure about his communication. Anecdotally it seems like a lot of the younger players have had issues with him at some point.
Politician is the best word used on this thread. He seems to be able to stay on the good side of the media, owner and GM.

 

[Hunter368]

Totally agree. He can certainly talk. Not sure about his communication. Anecdotally it seems like a lot of the younger players have had issues with him at some point.
Politician is the best word used on this thread. He seems to be able to stay on the good side of the media, owner and GM.

Some young players anecdotally having having an issue with him has nothing to do with if he’s a good communicator or not necessarily. Could just mean they don’t like his answers, which isn’t surprising at times.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Yes, you should go read what happened in Edmonton, cause its not what you think it was.

Those kids hadnt a clue how to consistently be pros, and when you allow the millennials to run the roost, without clear guidance from players that understand the importance of consistency, you end up with an Edmonton type crap show.

Ferrance was a pro on the decline, but he had over 900 NHL games and you do not get to that level without bringing it day in and day out. If a millenial has any clue, you shut your mouth and listen to a pro with 900 plus games under their belt, regardless of the skill differential.

This is what was going on in Edmonton:

OK, but the millennials are old enough to be "gud pros" now so we need to rant about the damn Generation Z twerps.

 

[Duke749]

OK, but the millennials are old enough to be "gud pros" now so we need to rant about the damn Generation Z twerps.

Ok boomer

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Ok boomer

I knew someone was going to toss that out.

 

[BoneDocUK]

I knew someone was going to toss that out.

I was going to toss it out earlier, but knew you'd call me lazy and entitled, mock my woke-ness and chase me off your lawn.

 

[Duke749]

Alright so back to coaching. How bout that Maurice!?

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Alright so back to coaching. How bout that Maurice!?

No point in replacing Maurice right now. Team is out of its window anyway. Save the money. Let him coach out his contract year and bring in a new coach next year. One that can win the big game. Maurice has shown that he can't. Fix D over the summer so we have a shot in 2020-21.

Hope this helps you out, Duke749!

 

[Guffman]

No point in replacing Maurice right now. Team is out of its window anyway. Save the money. Let him coach out his contract year and bring in a new coach next year. One that can win the big game. Maurice has shown that he can't. Fix D over the summer so we have a shot in 2020-21.

Hope this helps you out, Duke749!

So, who do you think will be available next year that can “win the big game”?

 

[Hunter368]

Alright so back to coaching. How bout that Maurice!?

Team is currently overachieving by most people’s opinion......so that about sums it up. Haha