All Encompassing Rebuild/Tanking Thread/Tankers GDT #8

[Im Old Gregggg]

I understand that 'no self respecting athlete will tank' ...
And i think that for any player whose career is not assured this is certainly true.

Watching the end of the game tonight though, there was something a little 'off' about the pressure, and i don't think it was just non-confidence. Like when the puck dribbled out into the slot centre ice, the shot taken from the pass out was... not fully invested. Kessel also took a shot that was a little too 'off'.

For the players on long term contracts who have enough faith in their ability to play hockey that they will have bright futures no matter how they play out the remainder of this season, i have to wonder a little. It doesn't even have to be anything so epic as a secret meeting pact between them to play soft. Maybe all it takes is a little space in the back of the brain to wonder what is the actual value in taking this game to overtime?

I would not be surprised if the leafs finish the season around 60 points.

Its past frustration.... where watching a motley crew of completely checked out players (save for 3 or 4 players) with one foot already out the door. These guys bags are packed and waiting to hear where they will need to purchase their next condos....

 

[p.l.f.]

Fri:
Phi @ clb
nj @ chi
sj @ ari

 

[Teeder9]

The Lost Nonis interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1yXqRvuszQ

Have to watch it on Youtube I guess

 

[Liminality]

Well I can see Rielly being pretty good on the PP regardless. Even with my Leafs bias I absolutely love Karlsson and the way he plays. Definitely one of my favourite players. But a 60 point Rielly with better defence? What more can you ask from him? He'd probably be perennially outscoring most defence man especially if Karlsson never gets back up to that 70 point plateau. We'll just have to see how Rielly plays with actually talented players when we draft. I'm hoping for Sean Day or Chychun (can't spell his name) in the next draft after this one.

I'd be really excited if we managed to grab Sean Day next draft. Him and Rielly would be such a good skating duo.

 

[Bernier the Boats]

"Luck"

Because when you have no explanations other than shots...

Blame it on superstition.

No, it means that when analyzing past game results, there will always be stochastic variance. If there wasn't then the favoured team would win every time. It's sports, any team can beat any team on any given night.

Not to be pedantic, but you know luck and superstition are not synonyms, right?

 

[Erdinger]

Fri:
Phi @ clb
nj @ chi
sj @ ari

That doesn't look like a good tank night at all.

 

[ChrisCall]

I'm not sure if you can use Pittsburgh as a valiant comparison when comparing the effect McDavid would have here. The Pittsburgh model sort of inherently stops a dynasty from even being possible, regardless of the back to back cup appearances. Inconsistent goaltending (mainly in the playoffs), thin on defence (not the worst, but nothing like Chicago or LA) and while you can ice Malkin and Crosby on the same team, they're over reliant on their abilities to make slightly mediocre players more productive.

So the impact of someone like McDavid who is outscoring Crosby's PPG in the same age year and projects to be just as good if not better (and by better I mean this kid is already taller than Crosby at 6'1 and he's only 17; assuming he grows to something like 6'3 and fills in at around 210 pounds, you have Crosby's skill set with Ovechkin's frame. It's ridiculous.), on a team like Toronto who's building through the draft with a different model, it tells a long tale and sets you up for immediate contention once the new core is established.

The thin defence and goaltending issues are certainly what brought Toronto to mind. With respect to the potential ridiculousness of McDavid's overall ability, perhaps i would want to make the trade simply to look at him as the FIRST piece of a rebuild. Maybe even to be so bold as letting him stay in Junior one or two extra years so he doesn't bring extra wins to the big club.

I just feel that Toronto's failures on defence are not solely the fault of any one player, but that there is not enough defence on the team as a whole. There are Five players on the ice at any given even strength time. I'm not suggesting at all that keeping Grabo would have been a good idea, because no, it wasn't in the long term interests, but he, Gunnarson, Kulemin, MacArthur, Komarov. These guys have a higher Defensive IQ than some of the players that took their ice time.

So, i relent. Perhaps yes, it is the best move to make that deal, but only in the spirit of going all in on the rebuild. If you are going to make this deal, you have to deal JVR as well. Besides Rielly, and depending on the team, very much in the same realm, he has the highest trade value on this team, which is going to need not one, but TWO elite D-men on the back end in addition to the other parts. JVR can probably be the key part of a package to snag one of those two.

 

[Apotheosis]

I'd be really excited if we managed to grab Sean Day next draft. Him and Rielly would be such a good skating duo.

Well we'll be in the running for him for sure. We're bad now. When we scorch this core even more, by the start of next season we'll basically be like Buffalo is for the last two seasons or so. So we're all but guaranteed a stud defence man next draft. If we got McDavid (Strome is a good consolation), we'd have one of the best prospect pools in hockey after just two drafts.

 

[JMcLeaf]

The Lost Nonis interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1yXqRvuszQ

Have to watch it on Youtube I guess

Just have to put in the part after the v= between the yt brackets:



That was great

 

[Teeder9]

Just have to put in the part after the v= between the yt brackets:



That was great

Thanks. I can never figure that out

 

[Morning Dart]

Kessel, JVR and our 3rd overall? If I'm Buffalo I take that and run assuming they won the lottery. But it would depend on which team we're talking to (Edmonton/Buffalo or whoever wins it). Not only is that team getting a proven 40 goal scorer in Kessel, they're getting a perennial 30 goal scorer (definitely 40 on a good team) in JVR and third overall is netting you Hanifin on defence. I'd be salivating at that haul. And considering where Buffalo is on their rebuild, in 2-3 years when Kessel is still productive, him, Kane, Reinhart etc. Would be lighting up the division.

Nah I meant more whatever combination is:

A) Still with us come the draft

B) Would still make the deal work

I'm assuming that Kessel and JVR wouldn't fit both those conditions. I agree though, it's a bitter pill, but I'm assuming something like this would be the only thing that would make Buffalo/Edmonton bite on giving away a generational talent. Remember we've also got other trade bait and guys like Phil and JVR might fetch a high 1st. Connor + another good prospect + Nylander/Reilly/Kadri and we're well on our way.

 

[Apotheosis]

The thin defence and goaltending issues are certainly what brought Toronto to mind. With respect to the potential ridiculousness of McDavid's overall ability, perhaps i would want to make the trade simply to look at him as the FIRST piece of a rebuild. Maybe even to be so bold as letting him stay in Junior one or two extra years so he doesn't bring extra wins to the big club.

I just feel that Toronto's failures on defence are not solely the fault of any one player, but that there is not enough defence on the team as a whole. There are Five players on the ice at any given even strength time. I'm not suggesting at all that keeping Grabo would have been a good idea, because no, it wasn't in the long term interests, but he, Gunnarson, Kulemin, MacArthur, Komarov. These guys have a higher Defensive IQ than some of the players that took their ice time.

So, i relent. Perhaps yes, it is the best move to make that deal, but only in the spirit of going all in on the rebuild. If you are going to make this deal, you have to deal JVR as well. Besides Rielly, and depending on the team, very much in the same realm, he has the highest trade value on this team, which is going to need not one, but TWO elite D-men on the back end in addition to the other parts. JVR can probably be the key part of a package to snag one of those two.

Oh no, I completely agree with what you mean about our defence. I always wonder if people watch these games and actually analyze the shortcomings of this team. Hell, half the time the panel always spells it out in plain sight for us. Our top 6 outside of Kadri is absolutely terrible defensively. They're lazy and never back track for defensive responsibilities. The first line is so suspect of this that every time I see them on the ice, especially when the opposing team has momentum, I always expect to be scored on unless Rielly is pulling out some rocket boosted skating speed to stop something. That's why I actually like the pick when we took someone like Gauthier. I absolutely love him as a third line shut down centre in the future. He's so elite defensively and even though he doesn't have huge offensive upside, he's doing fine (I think 1.2 PPG) on such a huge 6'5 frame. Those kind of players we need to have filling our team.

As for McDavid, I'm all for keeping him in the Juniors for one more season. He's way too good and would probably drop our draft stock if he played all out. Plus it gives him another 18 or so months to grow in to his body more and come in to the NHL as a 19 year old instead of being thrust into it as an 18 year old. The Pens were bad with Crosby at 18, but their team was even thinner than Edmonton's was when they sold off everyone, so it's not a good comparison.

If we're talking about that trade from the last page for the 1st overall pick, I'd be very reluctant to include our two best prospects going forward. I'd be more inclined to send Kessel, JVR and our 3rd overall pick that way. In Buffalo's case, their top six would be ridiculously loaded with Kessel, JVR, Kane and Reinhart from the get go and the third overall pick nets them Hanifin which makes their blue line even more amazing.

 

[Oskar The Groucho]

Just have to put in the part after the v= between the yt brackets:



I have never laughed so hard in some time THANK YOU

 

[FifthLine]

Just have to put in the part after the v= between the yt brackets:



That was great

Tears,

 

[Apotheosis]

Nah I meant more whatever combination is:

A) Still with us come the draft

B) Would still make the deal work

I'm assuming that Kessel and JVR wouldn't fit both those conditions. I agree though, it's a bitter pill, but I'm assuming something like this would be the only thing that would make Buffalo/Edmonton bite on giving away a generational talent. Remember we've also got other trade bait and guys like Phil and JVR might fetch a high 1st. Connor + another good prospect + Nylander/Reilly/Kadri and we're well on our way.

Oh.

Well it just depends when our GM will move Kessel (and Phaneuf by extension). If they're both (JVR and Kessel) still with us come draft day, the deal I proposed is still possible and or if they're still there, I think it's likely our GM tries to use Kessel as a trading piece to move up in the draft regardless.

 

[Morning Dart]

Oh.

Well it just depends when our GM will move Kessel (and Phaneuf by extension). If they're both (JVR and Kessel) still with us come draft day, the deal I proposed is still possible and or if they're still there, I think it's likely our GM tries to use Kessel as a trading piece to move up in the draft regardless.

Lots of possibilities. Just have to hope we get the highest pick we can. I mean, what if, we've traded Kessel to team "X" for a package including a pick 5-10, and we can package that pick with our own 3-5 and a Phaneuf, JvR type to move up to draft McDavid? That would be a complete fantasy, but the most ideal nonetheless.

 

[PhiladelphiaKessel]

The Lost Nonis interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1yXqRvuszQ

Have to watch it on Youtube I guess

Omg thank you for this. Eating while watching this was a big mistake, almost choked several times

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Just have to put in the part after the v= between the yt brackets:



That was great

That is hilarious

 

[ChrisCall]

Oh no, I completely agree with what you mean about our defence. I always wonder if people watch these games and actually analyze the shortcomings of this team. Hell, half the time the panel always spells it out in plain sight for us. Our top 6 outside of Kadri is absolutely terrible defensively. They're lazy and never back track for defensive responsibilities. The first line is so suspect of this that every time I see them on the ice, especially when the opposing team has momentum, I always expect to be scored on unless Rielly is pulling out some rocket boosted skating speed to stop something. That's why I actually like the pick when we took someone like Gauthier. I absolutely love him as a third line shut down centre in the future. He's so elite defensively and even though he doesn't have huge offensive upside, he's doing fine (I think 1.2 PPG) on such a huge 6'5 frame. Those kind of players we need to have filling our team.

As for McDavid, I'm all for keeping him in the Juniors for one more season. He's way too good and would probably drop our draft stock if he played all out. Plus it gives him another 18 or so months to grow in to his body more and come in to the NHL as a 19 year old instead of being thrust into it as an 18 year old. The Pens were bad with Crosby at 18, but their team was even thinner than Edmonton's was when they sold off everyone, so it's not a good comparison.

If we're talking about that trade from the last page for the 1st overall pick, I'd be very reluctant to include our two best prospects going forward. I'd be more inclined to send Kessel, JVR and our 3rd overall pick that way. In Buffalo's case, their top six would be ridiculously loaded with Kessel, JVR, Kane and Reinhart from the get go and the third overall pick nets them Hanifin which makes their blue line even more amazing.

Who ever the leafs take in the first round this year, i would like to see that player stay in Junior. In terms of trades, i have always preferred the route of trading for picks in future drafts. Try to pluck a 1st rounder from a team that thought they would be better than they were. eg: Columbus i believe would have been a great target a couple years ago in hindsight. The Islanders or Flames not so much. ...and of course salary always comes into play.

 

[Apotheosis]

Lots of possibilities. Just have to hope we get the highest pick we can. I mean, what if, we've traded Kessel to team "X" for a package including a pick 5-10, and we can package that pick with our own 3-5 and a Phaneuf, JvR type to move up to draft McDavid? That would be a complete fantasy, but the most ideal nonetheless.

Winning the lottery just outright would be a big F-U to most of the league haha.

 

[Sonny21]

The Lost Nonis interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1yXqRvuszQ

Have to watch it on Youtube I guess

I legit bust out laughing! That was hilarious.

 

[Morning Dart]

Winning the lottery just outright would be a big F-U to most of the league haha.

Ah, I guess my proposal is the second most ideal situation. As I've said before, 29th is not out of the realm. Edmonton's on the upswing, we just need to beat the Coyotes to the punch. From there, winning the lottery is far from impossible.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

9 points ahead of the Oilers

 

[Apotheosis]

Ah, I guess my proposal is the second most ideal situation. As I've said before, 29th is not out of the realm. Edmonton's on the upswing, we just need to beat the Coyotes to the punch. From there, winning the lottery is far from impossible.

9 points away from Edmonton.

Carolina and Arizona just have to win here and there. I can't see us cracking above 60 points this season with the way we're playing so we just need those teams to play slightly better and pass us. If Edmonton plays .500 hockey for the rest of the season and we finish with 60 points, where does that leave us and Edmonton? .500 hockey is what, 14 wins of 28 games? 28 points means they finish with 69 points and firmly above us while we stay above Buffalo. Obviously this is incredibly idealistic but it's still somewhat possible.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

Just have to put in the part after the v= between the yt brackets:



That was great

Hilarious.