Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[The Crypto Guy]

If you watch the video closely, it really seems like Laf is coasting on being physically more mature than his peers. He certainly has good hands in the video, but he doesn't seem overly shifty or quick in his skating. In hindsight this was a real weakness in his game that scouts either missed or ignored, probably because they salivated on him just being much more physically stronger than everyone.

Watch Connor Bedard videos. I can easily point to a host of skills that kid has. He's quick, shifty, got an explosive first step, amazing hands, and an amazing shot. Laf from the the junior video I can only really point out good hands and strength. And his hands seemed to be really good partly because of his ability to use his body and his reach, not because they were overly quick.

When you get to the NHL level, your edge in physical strength gets nullified. And for Laf, what does that leave him with?

Yes, briefly that is true, but Laf will get stronger and will be stronger than his peers in the NHL over the next couple of seasons as long as he keep working out. Heck look at Kakko, he was stronger than most before entering the NHL, then he was a wet noodle for a couple of seasons, now he is getting his man strength and is insanely strong on the puck. Laf will get his man strength too.

 

[huerter]

As a former high major DOBO and current 247 consultant, the first rule of highlights is to ignore highlights.

 

[The New Russian Five]

Yes, briefly that is true, but Laf will get stronger and will be stronger than his peers in the NHL over the next couple of seasons as long as he keep working out. Heck look at Kakko, he was stronger than most before entering the NHL, then he was a wet noodle for a couple of seasons, now he is getting his man strength and is insanely strong on the puck. Laf will get his man strength too.

Kakko, in his rookie season, had moments of over powering players and just dominating possession. You could see in spurts the high end talent that he was drafted for. What he lacked was stamina, endurance, and consistency. Things that after enough training you can fix. He's a different story than Laf, who I can't really point to any particular thing he excels at the NHL level. Potentially he might become stronger than his peers, but it is just as likely that he plateaued than Junior. Unlike Kakko, I see relatively no improvement in his play year-by-year.

 

[bhamill]

The better move if there were no offers on the table that met his value was to sign him to a similar deal he signed in St Louis and trade him during the season or the next offseason, if the team identified him as a necessary cap casualty.

A player signed long term like that would be worth a lot in a trade. Skjei returned a 1st and netted us Schneider.

Blais has yet to score a goal as a Ranger. It is easily one of the 10 most lopsided trades in Rangers history and will only look worse as Buch continues to get better

And then we would not have had Copp, Vatrano and Motte for our playoff run… so would that have been a better move? Who knows?
And the trade was not Blais for Buch, that’s oversimplified there were two other components (cap space and a 2nd) and Blais was never meant to be a substitute for Buch, who BTW is younger than Buch and has more runway to improve.… but he’s meant to be a physical hitting 4th or 3rd liner, not Buch.

 

[bhamill]

Kakko, in his rookie season, had moments of over powering players and just dominating possession. You could see in spurts the high end talent that he was drafted for. What he lacked was stamina, endurance, and consistency. Things that after enough training you can fix. He's a different story than Laf, who I can't really point to any particular thing he excels at the NHL level. Potentially he might become stronger than his peers, but it is just as likely that he plateaued than Junior. Unlike Kakko, I see relatively no improvement in his play year-by-year.

Gotta say, this seems revisionist when it comes to Kakko. In fact the criticisms he was getting his first two years were quite the opposite of that. “We were told he was more NHL ready but he’s being constantly pushed around out there and outmuscled along the boards He’s a bust I don’t see any flashes!!”

 

[bleedblue94]

So...........Let's say a number of the posters on here get what they want. Let's give the kids more icetime and PP time.They each score an additional 15-20 points. Then what ? As it stands if Chytil keeps up his play what do we have to do to resign him alone ? Take a look at Tim Stuzle.......is that what you want for Laffy........Laffy has as many even strength points or more. Sign him for 8.3 million ? Seriously ? Really ? You think Ottawa is a smart franchise? When exactly do you think those losers are going to smell the playoffs ? Seriously could someone answer my question? Let's conservatively add 10 million to resigning the kids if they get all the extra time everyone wants here. How do we resign them ?

Am I reading this right? Don't let your players be good so you don't have to pay them? Do we expect to magically flick a switch game 1 of the playoffs and have these young players be better and then pretend that we still wouldn't have to pay them.

Laffy and miller we're ALWAYS getting bridge contracts this summer, always. The crowd that thought they would sign long term at a discount and then be allowed to play more next year and blossom are clueless and clearly don't understand the purpose of a player agent.

The answer to your other question has always been to bide time with bridge deals until the cap goes up or you move a vet contract.

 

[The New Russian Five]

Gotta say, this seems revisionist when it comes to Kakko. In fact the criticisms he was getting his first two years were quite the opposite of that. “We were told he was more NHL ready but he’s being constantly pushed around out there and outmuscled along the boards He’s a bust I don’t see any flashes!!”

I disagree. In Kakko's previous seasons, he would have a shift or two every several games where you could see him using his skill to outmaneuver players along the boards and it was damn near impossible to take it from him. The flashes were certainly there, the consistency and conditioning issues sure were as well, and 90% of the time Kakko looked was indeed outmuscled, but mostly because he seemed to get tired so easily on a shift.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Gotta say, this seems revisionist when it comes to Kakko. In fact the criticisms he was getting his first two years were quite the opposite of that. “We were told he was more NHL ready but he’s being constantly pushed around out there and outmuscled along the boards He’s a bust I don’t see any flashes!!”

Kakko was terrible his rookie season. He should have gone to Hartford.

 

[cheech70]

Laf plays too cool...needs to have more urgency...look at Filip he is attacking and being aggressive...Laf 2nd half last year was one of our better forwards it will come

 

[IronBloodedLion]

Kakko looked completely lost in his rookie season. The second season is really when you started to see the potential, especially as a complete 2 way forward. This season, especially the last few weeks, he’s really coming on strong.

I’m hoping Laf starts to get it. He had some really strong games last year.

 

[bhamill]

I disagree. In Kakko's previous seasons, he would have a shift or two every several games where you could see him using his skill to outmaneuver players along the boards and it was damn near impossible to take it from him. The flashes were certainly there, the consistency and conditioning issues sure were as well, and 90% of the time Kakko looked was indeed outmuscled, but mostly because he seemed to get tired so easily on a shift.

As others have said he started showing flashes of it in his second season. Though I was still hearing about how he wasn’t showing anything and was a bust. It took him to his fourth (this) season to really start coming into his own.
It took Fil till his fifth.
Laf started showing it last year. His second season. 19 EV goals, and really good playoffs. This is his 3rd year and I see the signs, the flashes. I’m honestly not worried. I’m not telling YOU you can’t be concerned of course, I’m just not.
I think we all forget that these are kids playing against men, if their game isn’t shiftiness, speed, avoiding contact, it’s going to take time to man up to the NHL game. Couple that with how slowly they have been brought along and we are exactly where we are now.

 

[xsniper11x]

If Laf (and Kakko) were getting top PP, heavy minutes sheltered with 70%+ OZ starts and still lacking on the scoresheet, I’d be a lot more concerned. But they’re not. That’s literally what every other top prospect (except Dach, more on him below) in the NHL has seen, but it’s simply a different situation here.

It’s irrational to have their environment and usage be completely different than every other top prospect we’ve seen in recent memory and expect the same development curve. It’s frustrating as hell, but trying to compare their offensive contributions to their peers is just apples and oranges at this point.

Dach is a perfect example. He had more opportunity than our two, but still wasn’t sheltered the way Pat Kane (or Panarin) is. Now he’s getting his top PP and 70% OZ starts in MTL and he’s producing.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Laf played like a power forward his whole career, he needs to be stronger to play the way he can, until that happens this is what we have for now. Kakko got that strength this year hopefully its next year for Laf. He's unable to impose himself like he was used to because he's too slight, it will come and he will get into those areas he needs to, everything else is there, the shot, passing, etc.

 

[ReddestRum]

Kakko was terrible his rookie season. He should have gone to Hartford.

Kakko and Laf should've both been sent down to the AHL to develop their game in full. I think they would've dominated there. Bringing that confidence with them would've been more important than just flinging young players on the PP that by all accounts, look like they should never be there in the first place.

I just don't know what this unhealthy obsession is with just force feeding minutes to the kids on the PP. I think it's more to inflate their stats than actual development. I just find it mind-boggling that people here think the make or break transition from average to elite player in the NHL is because of the PP where the tempo is a bit more relaxed, your opponents are somewhat standing still, and there's one less opponent for you to worry about.

 

[bhamill]

Kakko and Laf should've both been sent down to the AHL to develop their game in full. I think they would've dominated there. Bringing that confidence with them would've been more important than just flinging young players on the PP that by all accounts, look like they should never be there in the first place.

I just don't know what this unhealthy obsession is with just force feeding minutes to the kids on the PP. I think it's more to inflate their stats than actual development. I just find it mind-boggling that people here think the make or break transition from average to elite player in the NHL is because of the PP where the tempo is a bit more relaxed, your opponents are somewhat standing still, and there's one less opponent for you to worry about.

Yet that, force feeding, is how Hughes and every other D+2-4 player we fawn over was developed.
I’m not saying you are wrong about the AHL, I’m saying there’s more than one path… including the one our kids have been put on. Fil and KK are coming into their own in their D+4-5 seasons. So will Laf.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Kakko and Laf should've both been sent down to the AHL to develop their game in full. I think they would've dominated there. Bringing that confidence with them would've been more important than just flinging young players on the PP that by all accounts, look like they should never be there in the first place.

I just don't know what this unhealthy obsession is with just force feeding minutes to the kids on the PP. I think it's more to inflate their stats than actual development. I just find it mind-boggling that people here think the make or break transition from average to elite player in the NHL is because of the PP where the tempo is a bit more relaxed, your opponents are somewhat standing still, and there's one less opponent for you to worry about.

Sure let’s just keep doing what we’re been doing, it’s been working so well

 

[ReddestRum]

Yet that, force feeding, is how Hughes and every other D+2-4 player we fawn over was developed.
I’m not saying you are wrong about the AHL, I’m saying there’s more than one path… including the one our kids have been put on. Fil and KK are coming into their own in their D+4-5 seasons. So will Laf.

Sure let’s just keep doing what we’re been doing, it’s been working so well

So you guys really think, without a doubt, that because players like Hughes and Zegras were "supposedly" force fed PP minutes (and not because they were, IMO, above talent NHL players right out of the gate points aside) that they reached new heights because they got 2-minutes or less PP minutes?

I've said it before, the elevation of one's game doesn't usually sprout up from play during the middle of the season, but after extensive work by that player in the off-season. Laf's legs don't suddenly get stronger during the regular season, nor his edge work, nor his hands, but it's the work he needs to put in during the off-season that we'll see the best gains. This is usually accomplished by the player's personal conditioning and development coach. A lot of players from different teams train under one coach together. This is why I'm staunchly against putting the bulk of the blame on the organization, because at the end of the day, like any other athlete, you put in your own work to get where you need to. However, it's never guaranteed that you'll get to what every NHL player wants, and that's to be the elite. Sometimes, players just reach a ceiling that they can't overcome.

Is it too early to call bust? Absolutely. Personally I don't think he's a bust, but his jump from exceptional juniors to average NHL'r seems to follow a pattern that we've seen from young players before around the league, over the years. Laf on PP1 is a pipe dream for now. I think Fil and Kakko 100% deserve more play time than Laf right now, but as it stands, the current PP1 we have is supplying most of the team's lifeblood and I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

 

[bhamill]

So you guys really think, without a doubt, that because players like Hughes and Zegras were "supposedly" force fed PP minutes (and not because they were, IMO, above talent NHL players right out of the gate points aside) that they reached new heights because they got 2-minutes or less PP minutes?

I've said it before, the elevation of one's game doesn't usually sprout up from play during the middle of the season, but after extensive work by that player in the off-season. Laf's legs don't suddenly get stronger during the regular season, nor his edge work, nor his hands, but it's the work he needs to put in during the off-season that we'll see the best gains. This is usually accomplished by the player's personal conditioning and development coach. A lot of players from different teams train under one coach together. This is why I'm staunchly against putting the bulk of the blame on the organization, because at the end of the day, like any other athlete, you put in your own work to get where you need to. However, it's never guaranteed that you'll get to what every NHL player wants, and that's to be the elite. Sometimes, players just reach a ceiling that they can't overcome.

Is it too early to call bust? Absolutely. Personally I don't think he's a bust, but his jump from exceptional juniors to average NHL'r seems to follow a pattern that we've seen from young players before around the league, over the years. Laf on PP1 is a pipe dream for now. I think Fil and Kakko 100% deserve more play time than Laf right now, but as it stands, the current PP1 we have is supplying most of the team's lifeblood and I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

Yeah. I think Hughes and Zegras being ahead in development is in part because they were force fed minutes and given continued support and responsibilities through their growing pains. Laf outscored Hughes in their D+1 seasons 21 to 12 at even strength (they were at 21 points each overall) in five less games getting 4 mins less a game. hughes took off because of usage and opportunity, the circumstance of not being blocked by star vets. And those players are both the small, speedy, shifty, avoid contact type. Not the kind that have to match strength in their game with grown men. Not the kind that need to grow into the league the same way as Fil, KK and Laf are doing.
How’d you like Laf tonight? Suddenly he’s at about .5 points per game. He’s going to be a better all around player than Hughes IMO, especially in the playoffs, and Zegras I don’t think will be in the same conversation, though a first line center.
Again, that’s how I see things. Neither of us has a crystal ball. We’re going to have to check back in over the next couple of seasons.

 

[mas0764]

Yeah. I think Hughes and Zegras being ahead in development is in part because they were force fed minutes and given continued support and responsibilities through their growing pains. Laf outscored Hughes in their D+1 seasons 21 to 12 at even strength (they were at 21 points each overall) in five less games getting 4 mins less a game. hughes took off because of usage and opportunity, the circumstance of not being blocked by star vets. And those players are both the small, speedy, shifty, avoid contact type. Not the kind that have to match strength in their game with grown men. Not the kind that need to grow into the league the same way as Fil, KK and Laf are doing.
How’d you like Laf tonight? Suddenly he’s at about .5 points per game. He’s going to be a better all around player than Hughes IMO, especially in the playoffs, and Zegras I don’t think will be in the same conversation, though a first line center.
Again, that’s how I see things. Neither of us has a crystal ball. We’re going to have to check back in over the next couple of seasons.

Laf is getting quiet points, no PP time, and yet is still at 0.5 ppg almost (0.48 actually).

If he makes a Kakko-like jump next year he'll be very visible.

 

[bhamill]

Laf is getting quiet points, no PP time, and yet is still at 0.5 ppg almost (0.48 actually).

If he makes a Kakko-like jump next year he'll be very visible.

Yup.

 

[Rongomania]

Great to see him have that kinda night. The triple breakout will still happen.

Watching he, fil and Kak start to put it together on the big stage last spring, it is only a matter of time.

Laf and Kak multi point night together. This is what will bring our f*cking city a hockey championship one day.

 

[Machinehead]

I like that he's showing the ability to just find points lately. The great players find points when they're playing meh.

I still wanna see more initiative and more raw skill.

For example, on the first goal last night, he kind of fumbled Fox's pass but then just shoveled it over to Chytil in one motion.

Great, high-IQ, reaction play to get the puck to the open man without thinking, but he still fumbled the first pass. Had Chytil not been there, it could have easily been a turnover followed by the usual groans of a play dying on Lafreniere's stick.

I wasn't sure how to feel about that one.

 

[Machinehead]

In his defense, Fox puts some f***ing mustard on them.

 

[Ruggs225]

I dont think he fumbled it. I think the pass was in his skates or at least close to them. It definitely wasnt a perfect pass. He made the play though.

And truthfully Chytil really made the play bc he swatted the puck in midair to score. I dont think laff’s pass actually hit the ice beofre chytils stick hit it.

 

[CLW]

I like that he's showing the ability to just find points lately. The great players find points when they're playing meh.

I still wanna see more initiative and more raw skill.

For example, on the first goal last night, he kind of fumbled Fox's pass but then just shoveled it over to Chytil in one motion.

Great, high-IQ, reaction play to get the puck to the open man without thinking, but he still fumbled the first pass. Had Chytil not been there, it could have easily been a turnover followed by the usual groans of a play dying on Lafreniere's stick.

I wasn't sure how to feel about that one.

The pass was behind him on his backhand, he did well to gather it and get it to Fil. A right shot could have one timed it.