Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

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He'll be a bonafide 1st liner and big game talent. Still not worried.

Is he going to be Nathan MacKinnon? I doubt it. But Nathan MacKinnon wasn't that until 22 years old. In his 5th season. The issue with a lot of our players isn't skill. It's mindset and over thinking the game imo.
 
He'll be a bonafide 1st liner and big game talent. Still not worried.

Is he going to be Nathan MacKinnon? I doubt it. But Nathan MacKinnon wasn't that until 22 years old. In his 5th season. The issue with a lot of our players isn't skill. It's mindset and over thinking the game imo.
Nathan MacKinnon was a nearly 25G 65P player in his rookie year and was nearly a full year younger than Laf in his (MacK is a September birthday so he was the baby of his draft, Laf is October so he's the oldest)
 
Nathan MacKinnon was a nearly 25G 65P player in his rookie year and was nearly a full year younger than Laf in his (MacK is a September birthday so he was the baby of his draft, Laf is October so he's the oldest)
the point is there's a much higher level he hit, 5 seasons in. It's not a 1:1 analogy.

We were balking about trading McDonagh for MacKinnon at the time. It's not all sunshine and roses
 
the point is there's a much higher level he hit, 5 seasons in. It's not a 1:1 analogy.

We were balking about trading McDonagh for MacKinnon at the time. It's not all sunshine and roses
I hope you are right
I just think with these comparisons most of the time the player was a lot more productive than Laf, and they flashed a lot more elite tools than Laf. MacK was always an elite skater

The fact that both Kakko & Laf have been this underwhelming though makes me think it's our organization screwing things up. I highly doubt the "easiest 2nd pick ever" & "best since McDavid" both coincidentally are busting.
 
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I hope you are right
I just think with these comparisons most of the time the player was a lot more productive than Laf, and they flashed a lot more elite tools than Laf. MacK was always an elite skater

The fact that both Kakko & Laf have been this underwhelming though makes me think it's our organization screwing things up. I highly doubt the "easiest 2nd pick ever" & "best since McDavid" both coincidentally are busting.
He was not the best since mcdavid. He was considered in the immediate tier right below mackinnon and matthews in the past 10 years of 1sts.
Still a clear #1 overall, but not "the best since mcdavid"

Alot of what the issue is seems to be he's not driving the play himself the way he needs to. Its been discussed over and over again, but Laf plays physical, and he makes plays and demands the puck when he was dominanting in the Q and in the world juniors. He's not demanding anything right now, and a chunk of that might be due to Quinn, or it could be he's paired with guys who are demanding the puck themselves and vets so he feels compelled to defer.
 
I hope you are right
I just think with these comparisons most of the time the player was a lot more productive than Laf, and they flashed a lot more elite tools than Laf. MacK was always an elite skater

The fact that both Kakko & Laf have been this underwhelming though makes me think it's our organization screwing things up. I highly doubt the "easiest 2nd pick ever" & "best since McDavid" both coincidentally are busting.
I think he'll be Tavares tier... and that's fine.
 
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I mean, Byfield has done even less than Laf. I have heard next to no hype surrounding him at all. Has he looked good in LA? Doesn’t seem to have played a game yet this year.

Another take (maybe hot) on Laf here. It’s almost like he’s known he’s going pro forever and now that he’s there he has to “play like one”. A lot of young players have a hard time because they don’t leave junior bad habits in junior, even though the best players are the ones that can pull off junior style plays in the pros. It’s almost like Laf refuses to make junior style mistakes, like he thinks that that kind of stuff has no place in the NHL, has known it forever, and doesn’t want to be seen as that kind of player.
I don't think that's a hot take at all, in fact I think it's 100% accurate. That's about as perfectly as I've seen it put, I was talking in another post about him trying to be a well rounded player at all times which I think is overriding him in times when he should be taking chances and making plays. He's deferring as options a, b and c because it's trying to play 'the right way' at all times so he's not even thinking about taking a risk or trying something.
 
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Its always been my coaching mentality that when a player is struggling that there's a couple different ways to approach it depending on the player but for me with a player like Lafreniere who is kinda feeling his way into this we need to bring him back to his roots and get him into the trenches. He's most effective when he plays like Crosby(he's not close to Crosby i know) but his game is a grinding with skill style game, i haven't seen it much from him, whether he is trying to be a skill guy or just isnt comfortable imposing himself on the opposition we need to bring him back to what has been his bread and butter. Put him with a couple grinder types and leave it for a while, my line would be Laf Goodrow/Chytil and Blais.
Agreed on the bold.

He may not have confidence in his strength right now, but he needs to get stuck in and battle like h***. He showed that fight at times last year and he needs to get it back. Soon.

The mental processing of the speed of the game--that'll come in time. The battle needs to be there, always.
 
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It honestly feels like I'm watching mini David Quinn at the helm, in Lafreniere's brain, pulling all the levers.. He's running his body. Like a disney movie. Over thinking and over analyzing everything. Leading to hesitation and slow reactions.

They've ( the players ) been slowly morphed into over thinking, passive and reactionary players. We need to be attacking, relentless and instinctual. It's not just Lafreniere.
 
Laf doesn't have the explosive speed, or really any one "signature" attribute that he can rely on at this level. He's always been a hockey IQ and compete-level guy. It's going to take him time to become the total package that he was at the juniors level.

It sucks, and you'd hope for more out of a #1 OA, but all you can do is give the kid time and not overwhelm him. I think the Rangers Organization has done a good job of managing that part of it for him thus far.
 
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I think he'll be Tavares tier... and that's fine.

I agree with this. I think he slots in in that tier just a hair under McKinnon... offensive production wise. I think as a leader, big game, playoff performer with an edge he's going to be top notch. Had it in juniors. You don't just lose that. Still finding his way in the best league on the planet. Not worried about him.
 
I think Quinn really f***ed with these kids first impressions of what you can and can’t do. I’ve never seen him even try a drop back pass or try to cut to the middle when coming down that left wing. How is that possible ?

something isn’t right
 
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Neither Laf or Kakko were the "safe" choice. Both were the obvious choices, for every team in the league.

Yikes. a) Another way to say that is "safe". As in "can't miss" As in "it won't facilitate much criticism.

and b) You have absolutely no way of knowing they "both were the obvious choices, for every team in the league."

Did you speak to every GM? Did every GM explicitly state that? You, nor anyone else here has any idea what all 31 NHL teams would have done. So please, stop pretending just because something is popular that it is "correct" or "better" or that "everyone thought" the same. Please stop pretending that a minority of people didn't prefer Byfield, which they did. Please stop pretending that there weren't and aren't real concerns about certain aspects of Laf's game. You are way oversimplifying this, which is exactly the initial point I was making.

You often hear this phrase around draft time, "don't overthink the pick." BS. Use every intuition, perception and bit of intelligence you can to determine the best possible choice for your team and the best possible player for your teams goals and needs.

That kind of fallacious logic, when a situation goes ass up, is generally followed by a statement like "ahh well, who could have known?" or "what can you do?". Um, well now you can't do anything, but there were a number of other things you could have done if you didn't rely on faulty wisdom like "don't overthink it." Sure, don't be indecisive. Don't sit on the fence, rocking both ways, just waiting to see in which direction you fall. That's different. But think about it all day and all night. Think about every possible aspect and outcome to make an informed decision. And whatever you do, don't depend on the opinion of the crowd to determine what you should do.
 
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I mean, Byfield has done even less than Laf. I have heard next to no hype surrounding him at all. Has he looked good in LA? Doesn’t seem to have played a game yet this year.

Another take (maybe hot) on Laf here. It’s almost like he’s known he’s going pro forever and now that he’s there he has to “play like one”. A lot of young players have a hard time because they don’t leave junior bad habits in junior, even though the best players are the ones that can pull off junior style plays in the pros. It’s almost like Laf refuses to make junior style mistakes, like he thinks that that kind of stuff has no place in the NHL, has known it forever, and doesn’t want to be seen as that kind of player.

Yes, I explicitly stated that Byfield might still turn out to be a bust. What I said was, Byfield has and had the raw tools, that if groomed properly, if facilitated positively so that he reached his full potential, would give him a higher ceiling than Laf. It's a pretty simple and straightforward statement.

And IMO, and I am not alone in this, regardless of if some believe I am, that when we are deciding between possible "franchise" players or future players, I tend to lean on higher reward even if that comes with a reasonable yet higher risk. And when two players are as close as Laf and Byfield were thought to be by many, I think it's a mistake to automatically choose the "safer" option because no prospect is actually safe. It's a matter of risk assessment. And in this regard, I do believe in the choice between Laf and Byfield, the reward would warrant the slightly higher "risk". And again, I am not alone in that. I might be in the minority. But I am not simply being contrarian here.

Everyone is trying to find reasons and/or excuses for why Laf is "under-performing", as if there is some huge mystery. Your hypothesis is plausible, but it's not exactly determinable. It's completely possible that there are and were real negative aspects to Laf's game, like speed, skating or more mental aspects like confidence or what you suggest, which I guess can be called "being a perfectionist", that are now effecting him. And at least some of these things, some of these concerns were noted and stated prior to the draft. So those aspects are, to whatever extent determinable.

But his story is far from over. Right now, every hypothesis, whether it is mine, yours or anyone else, is just that, a hypothesis at this moment because he is indeed still developing. Thus, he can correct or overcome those objectively discernible concerns about his game. But I don't think what is happening is completely out of nowhere. There was always a chance and there was always actual risk with making the decision to go with the majority opinion in this case. And I absolutely do not understand those completely optimistic he will "work out" or become a legit force in the NHL. I also do not see it as a net positive if he only proves to be a middle of the road player. If that is the eventual outcome, I don't see how that can be considered a "win".

And all of this can similarly be said about Byfield right now. But I stand by my initial assessment of the two players.

All of this, whether I stated it or whether it's those arguing with me, is at this point pontificating. So, I won't restate this further.
 
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Yikes. a) Another way to say that is "safe". As in "can't miss" As in "it won't facilitate much criticism.

and b) You have absolutely no way of knowing they "both were the obvious choices, for every team in the league."

Did you speak to every GM? Did every GM explicitly state that? You, nor anyone else here has any idea what all 31 NHL teams would have done. So please, stop pretending just because something is popular that it is "correct" or "better" or that "everyone thought" the same. Please stop pretending that a minority of people didn't prefer Byfield, which they did. Please stop pretending that there weren't and aren't real concerns about certain aspects of Laf's game. You are way oversimplifying this, which is exactly the initial point I was making.

You often hear this phrase around draft time, "don't overthink the pick." BS. Use every intuition, perception and bit of intelligence you can to determine the best possible choice for your team and the best possible player for your teams goals and needs.

That kind of fallacious logic, when a situation goes ass up, is generally followed by a statement like "ahh well, who could have known?" or "what can you do?". Um, well now you can't do anything, but there were a number of other things you could have done if you didn't rely on faulty wisdom like "don't overthink it." Sure, don't be indecisive. Don't sit on the fence, rocking both ways, just waiting to see in which direction you fall. That's different. But think about it all day and all night. Think about every possible aspect and outcome to make an informed decision.

If, for example, 5 teams thought Byfield > Laf and 26 teams thought Laf > Byfield then the more likely scenario is the five teams are wrong. Of course you will always be find a small contingent that thinks different.
 
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Has not seen any edge from him to even come close to getting into a fight, never knew he was this soft even, Rick Nash had more grit than Lafy.
Idk why you're using Rick Nash as your player in this example, Nash was actually a gritty forward compared to most skilled goal scorers. Nash always went into the corners, he finished every check and did a ton of dirty work. He was far grittier than most of the skilled stars in the league.

If you're trying to say X player who isn't gritty at all had more grit than Laf then Gaborik would be a more apt player to use in that example.
 
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