Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[Kords]

My impression on him after 16 games is a kid who is focusing on structure and playing within the system. He's a kid who is all about being a "team first" player. I can guarantee you he values team points>personal points and wouldn't swap spots with Stutzle for anything. The system isn't firing on all cylinders yet, but it took all the new pieces a few months to click last season and that was under normal circumstances. I have no concerns about him. None. He is still one of the best NHL prospects from the last 10 years. It's okay to be bummed that he isn't lighting up the net like AM, but it's way too soon for concern. In fact, for all the points he racked up, Mathews STILL faced criticism for being a selfish player and it costing the Leafs wins.

The grass isn't greener elsewhere, and Lafreniere is an amazingly talented upper tier prospect whom a coach can't ruin. He's finding his way, it's only a matter of time. Try and enjoy the ride.

 

[Synergy27]

So now we have expanded the sample size to 30+ years. So then why not take it further? Let's go back to the 70's and Middleton and start to evaluate the drafting choices of Francis as they are very germane to the conversation. Or let's go back to Leetch. Or Kovalev. Or Zubov. Or Amonte. Do they not count as top tier players? Does Fox not count as a top-tier player today?

You want to talk about historical drafting or drafting and developing under the current regime?

I think you’ve stopped reading my posts and just want to put words in my mouth at this point. I directly addressed Kovalev above. Leetch, Zubov and Fox are defenseman.

This team has never drafted and developed a superstar forward in my entire time following it. I expanded my sample size to my time as a fan(which is a large sample size now because I am old). I am only moderately familiar with the team’s history beyond that.

 

[McRanger]

Gorton became the AGM in 2011 after being the Assistant Director of Player Personnel for three years prior. I think 2011, that's probably the point for me. There was a lot of ink devoted to Gorton's influence beginning around the time he took over as AGM. I remember how ridiculous it was--every time we did something people liked, it was, "This has Gorton's fingerprints all over it!"; when it was something generally unpopular, it was "Sather strikes again!" Even that Eric Staal trade, when Gorton had officially become GM, I remember a lot of people were adamant that Sather was really the one pulling the strings on that.

That stuff was all goofy, but I do think it's reasonable to start looking at the "current regime" as beginning to take shape in 2011. There's the pre-lockout Sather era, then there's the 2005-2011 era, then the 2011-present era. Of course JD joining has altered the dynamics, and maybe you could say this is an entirely different era, but IMO our approach today isn't dramatically different than it was in the few years before JD joined.

This is good but I would break it down slightly differently. There is the Maloney era that started pre-lockout (pre-Sather really) and went until he left before the '07 draft. And then a weird interim period from '08-'11 where I have no idea who Sather was listening to (schoenfeld as AGM, Barnett as head of scouting, Gorton as DoPP, Gordie, et al) and then the Gorton era starting in '11'-'12 season.

Drafting wise, well all around really, the Maloney era was a disaster. The interim period was actually good and would have been awesome if they didn't screw up 2010. And the Gorton era has been a weird mix of not having high picks due to going for it and having all the top picks.

 

[True Blue]

This team has never drafted and developed a superstar forward in my entire time following it. I expanded my sample size to my time as a fan(which is a large sample size now because I am old). I am only moderately familiar with the team’s history beyond that.

Ok. So your sample size is only during the time of when you have been a fan. Or, roughly 1990-2020. Do have this right?

Sure, one can make a statement such as the one your making. But that makes it more of an existential issue, one not having anything to do with what is actually happening today. For your historical analysis, and frankly for say the last 10 years, one would need to see how many times the team picked in the first round and then when they did, how many times have they picked a forward. To be sure that the 90s and 2000s produced it's share of busts at forward. Or frankly at a lot of positions. But then, starting in 2010 you can see a tangible change in drafting. That Gorton was able to get so much, given that 4 out of 10 years there was no first round pick and for two of those years, there was no second round pick either. So far, in the last decade, only Andersson appears to be a bust. The rest either did well or are still currently being developed. Going back 20-30 years, one can lament but has no bearing on the current regime.

 

[Synergy27]

Ok. So your sample size is only during the time of when you have been a fan. Or, roughly 1990-2020. Do have this right?

Sure, one can make a statement such as the one your making. But that makes it more of an existential issue, one not having anything to do with what is actually happening today. For your historical analysis, and frankly for say the last 10 years, one would need to see how many times the team picked in the first round and then when they did, how many times have they picked a forward. To be sure that the 90s and 2000s produced it's share of busts at forward. Or frankly at a lot of positions. But then, starting in 2010 you can see a tangible change in drafting. That Gorton was able to get so much, given that 4 out of 10 years there was no first round pick and for two of those years, there was no second round pick either. So far, in the last decade, only Andersson appears to be a bust. The rest either did well or are still currently being developed. Going back 20-30 years, one can lament but has no bearing on the current regime.

Again, my only thesis here is that I am concerned that Lafreniere (and Kakko for that matter) are not progressing as expected. I don’t know why that is the case. I am not citing historical data as potential reasons why, I am simply saying that what I am seeing with Laf and Kakko is consistent with what I have seen with the team for forever and that that concerns me because picking at 1 and 2OA is supposed to essentially eliminate all of those other variables.

Do I think Neil Smith or Tom Renney have some weird butterfly effect on Laf and KK? No. Am I concerned that the team I like, which hasn’t produced an elite talent at forward in the 30+ years I’ve been a fan, is seeing less than encouraging early returns from their highest draft picks ever? Yes.

That’s really it.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Except that what you are describing has not been happening. The stats bear that out. And considering that they are ranked very well in both expected goals and high danger shot generation, I have no clue how they can also be at the bottom third of scoring generation. In fact, that is pretty much impossible.

If watching how Kakko was blossoming is making the Rangers hard to watch, not really sure of what to tell you except maybe come back next year.

Fair enough, I guess my perception isn't reality.

Then again, stats have a nasty habit of lying.

 

[True Blue]

Again, my only thesis here is that I am concerned that Lafreniere (and Kakko for that matter) are not progressing as expected. I don’t know why that is the case. I am not citing historical data as potential reasons why, I am simply saying that what I am seeing with Laf and Kakko is consistent with what I have seen with the team for forever and that that concerns me because picking at 1 and 2OA is supposed to essentially eliminate all of those other variables.

Do I think Neil Smith or Tom Renney have some weird butterfly effect on Laf and KK? No. Am I concerned that the team I like, which hasn’t produced an elite talent at forward in the 30+ years I’ve been a fan, is seeing less than encouraging early returns from their highest draft picks ever? Yes.

That’s really it.

Think we about beat this horse to death several times at this point and time to leave this one behind.

 

[Synergy27]

Think we about beat this horse to death several times at this point and time to leave this one behind.

I agree. It’s been fun though. Caught me on a week where I have some free time.

 

[bl02]

I still think the kid has a great shot. Unfortunately, seems like we have not been able to see him use it much. Just not a lot of space out there. Maybe he isn't the fleetest of foot? maybe it's the system? maybe a little more open space would help him utilize it more?

 

[3rd Guy High]

So much of hockey is confidence, feeling the game and playing on instincts.

Best example of this is Zib last year vs this year. The dude didn’t lose his skills over the course of a couple of months. He’s completely out of it mentally. Opposite with Kakko last year vs this one. Same thing with Lafreniere.

Laf looked better in game 1, 2, 3 than he does now.

Not to beat a dead horse - it’s a coaching problem. He doesn’t know how to put guys into positions to succeed. He doesn’t know how to push the right buttons to get guys going. You can see this watching Laf play. He doesn’t command space, he doesn’t hunt down the puck and then attack opponents with his skill. Instead when he gets the puck he’ll fade off, glide and look to pass immediately. Contrast this to clips of him playing pre-draft. The skills are there, he needs to be told to go out there, make some mistakes sure, but more importantly use the skill he has.

Some players figure it out on their own, others can’t and need the right push. Good coaches help players recognize their strengths and best game and push them to play that way. Laf will likely figure it out on his own.

It’s so blatantly obvious Quinn doesn’t understand the differences in players skill sets and doesn’t know how to push them correctly.

Edit: want to add, Kravtsov needs to stay the f**k away until Quinn is gone. That dude’s style is very much all feeling the game.

 

[bl02]

If Kravtsov comes over here this year he will be lucky to score a goal. Keep him with Traktor until 2022-2023

 

[Rangers in 7]

So much of hockey is confidence, feeling the game and playing on instincts.

Best example of this is Zib last year vs this year. The dude didn’t lose his skills over the course of a couple of months. He’s completely out of it mentally. Opposite with Kakko last year vs this one. Same thing with Lafreniere.

Laf looked better in game 1, 2, 3 than he does now.

Not to beat a dead horse - it’s a coaching problem. He doesn’t know how to put guys into positions to succeed. He doesn’t know how to push the right buttons to get guys going. You can see this watching Laf play. He doesn’t command space, he doesn’t hunt down the puck and then attack opponents with his skill. Instead when he gets the puck he’ll fade off, glide and look to pass immediately. Contrast this to clips of him playing pre-draft. The skills are there, he needs to be told to go out there, make some mistakes sure, but more importantly use the skill he has.

Some players figure it out on their own, others can’t and need the right push. Good coaches help players recognize their strengths and best game and push them to play that way. Laf will likely figure it out on his own.

It’s so blatantly obvious Quinn doesn’t understand the differences in players skill sets and doesn’t know how to push them correctly.

Edit: want to add, Kravtsov needs to stay the f**k away until Quinn is gone. That dude’s style is very much all feeling the game.

Excellent post. Been saying it for awhile now, he’s scared doing anything with his skill on the ice right now

 

[MysticLeviathan]

the key is how much better he looked earlier in the season. watch game 1 again; he was absolutely flying. its absolutely a confidence issue and not something that’ll be rectified by getting a goal or an assist. this entire team needs better structure on offense. it helps having actual NHLere rather than AAAAers or career AHLers playing, but we need a better system.

 

[EdJovanovski]

If Kravtsov comes over here this year he will be lucky to score a goal. Keep him with Traktor until 2022-2023

I could see Kravtsov not giving a f*** about Quinn, skating out there with a 50BPM heart rate and doing his signature between the legs dangle and scoring first shift

 

[The New Russian Five]

So much of hockey is confidence, feeling the game and playing on instincts.

Best example of this is Zib last year vs this year. The dude didn’t lose his skills over the course of a couple of months. He’s completely out of it mentally. Opposite with Kakko last year vs this one. Same thing with Lafreniere.

Laf looked better in game 1, 2, 3 than he does now.

Not to beat a dead horse - it’s a coaching problem. He doesn’t know how to put guys into positions to succeed. He doesn’t know how to push the right buttons to get guys going. You can see this watching Laf play. He doesn’t command space, he doesn’t hunt down the puck and then attack opponents with his skill. Instead when he gets the puck he’ll fade off, glide and look to pass immediately. Contrast this to clips of him playing pre-draft. The skills are there, he needs to be told to go out there, make some mistakes sure, but more importantly use the skill he has.

Some players figure it out on their own, others can’t and need the right push. Good coaches help players recognize their strengths and best game and push them to play that way. Laf will likely figure it out on his own.

It’s so blatantly obvious Quinn doesn’t understand the differences in players skill sets and doesn’t know how to push them correctly.

Edit: want to add, Kravtsov needs to stay the f**k away until Quinn is gone. That dude’s style is very much all feeling the game.

This 100%. Laf has actually regressed as the season goes along. His confidence gets more shaken every game and it's a vicious cycle because as his confidence and play gets worse, Quinn puts him in less and less positions to succeed.

I don't even see Laf making mistakes, because he won't even attempt a high risk, high reward play. I am convinced at this point that is the instructions he is given and I will bet it is the same instructions Kakko was given. Kakko even had a freudian slip when he was interviewed in Finland about it.

Let the kids make mistakes! Development framework 101.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Unpopular opinion but Laf is on the first line despite having some of the worst production on the team (and was before Panarin was out so don’t use that excuse), he’s getting his chances. Quinn put him out in OT when he didn’t earn anything. Quinn put him in the shootout. He’s been spoonfeeding him chances to build up his confidence. He’s getting way more chances than he’s earned so far. Can’t blame the coach for everything. I know people are complaining that he’s not on PP1 but if this guy wasn’t the 1st overall pick he wouldn’t be sniffing a second of PP time with his play so far. Kakko was also spoonfed top 6 minutes last season when he played like crap. If Laf had the ability to strip guys of the puck and blow by them coast to coast and score like Stutzle he’d be doing it, do you really think Quinn is going to get mad at him for scoring? Him underperforming might very well cost Quinn his job, Quinn wants him to succeed.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

Unpopular opinion but Laf is on the first line despite having some of the worst production on the team (and was before Panarin was out so don’t use that excuse), he’s getting his chances. Quinn put him out in OT when he didn’t earn anything. Quinn put him in the shootout. He’s been spoonfeeding him chances to build up his confidence. He’s getting way more chances than he’s earned so far. Can’t blame the coach for everything. I know people are complaining that he’s not on PP1 but if this guy wasn’t the 1st overall pick he wouldn’t be sniffing a second of PP time with his play so far. Kakko was also spoonfed top 6 minutes last season when he played like crap. If Laf had the ability to strip guys of the puck and blow by them coast to coast and score like Stutzle he’d be doing it, do you really think Quinn is going to get mad at him for scoring? Him underperforming might very well cost Quinn his job, Quinn wants him to succeed.

The issue is that DQ is putting Laf in the position to play his way or not really play at all. If he wants to stay playing where he is, he has to play DQ's way. That's the issue. The minute he starts to play the way he was playing, you think DQ is gonna keep him up there? You think he's gonna play him on the PP at all? He's willing to put Colin f***ing Blackwell on PP1. He's already playing Lemieux and Bitetto and other trashpiles on the PP. If DQ really wanted, he could take Laf off the PP entirely. There's no winning. Laf either has to figure it out, stop giving a f*** about making a mistake and just play his way and deal with the consequences, or just wither away. Maybe something will click at some point. Maybe he'll go off on DQ in private or something, who knows. But right now it's a long road nowhere.

 

[haveandare]

The issue is that DQ is putting Laf in the position to play his way or not really play at all. If he wants to stay playing where he is, he has to play DQ's way. That's the issue. The minute he starts to play the way he was playing, you think DQ is gonna keep him up there? You think he's gonna play him on the PP at all? He's willing to put Colin f***ing Blackwell on PP1. He's already playing Lemieux and Bitetto and other trashpiles on the PP. If DQ really wanted, he could take Laf off the PP entirely. There's no winning. Laf either has to figure it out, stop giving a f*** about making a mistake and just play his way and deal with the consequences, or just wither away. Maybe something will click at some point. Maybe he'll go off on DQ in private or something, who knows. But right now it's a long road nowhere.

What is this based on though? I know it’s repeated here but what is it actually based on outside of this forum?

 

[KotBegemot]

I still think that his best game was the first one. He created some chances at least and looked like he had some great offensive potential. I think in the first game he made a great pass for a goal on his first shift. And then had similar plays afterwards. Now he just looks like any AHL plug, if didn't know anything about Rangers players and somebody told me that one of #13 and #43 is an AHL player and another is the 1st overall pick I'd probably think that #43 is the latter. Sadly. I get that he's learning the system and he actually looks like he's a good team player. But I wish I'd see more of elite raw talent in his game and sadly I can't see it right now. The first game was the most raw talent I saw from him in NHL. I'm not giving up on a kid and not labeling him a bust. Just hope he'll become a very good all-around winger someday, someone like Blake Wheeler. And maybe he'll start shooting more for once.

 

[The New Russian Five]

What is this based on though? I know it’s repeated here but what is it actually based on outside of this forum?

I think this is based on the fact that our entire offense has been predicated on dumping the puck and grinding it out in the offensive zone. This is why our third and fourth line players (Blackwell, Rooney, PDG) have all excelled this season, while our more skilled players have struggled. Just watch us for a few games and how our offense is played in the offensive zone. Mostly dup in chase, no creativity, and just grind it out.

Why does Lemuiex get PP time and is on in the final minute of the game with the goalie pulled? Because he plays the type of game that he wants everyone else to play. Why does Gauthier keep getting benched? Because he has the size and strength to be a grinder but he was trying to be too cute in the offensive zone. Why did Laf look more dynamic in games 1-3 of the season and been regressing ever since? Why did the same thing happen to Kakko last year?

After awhile you start adding everything up and you can clearly see what Quinn's philosophy is. He wants his team to play mistake free hockey and is willing to kill creativity and suppress risk taking to do get there. Funny, because we still make just as many mistakes regardless.

 

[BroadwayStorm]

I think this is based on the fact that our entire offense has been predicated on dumping the puck and grinding it out in the offensive zone. This is why our third and fourth line players (Blackwell, Rooney, PDG) have all excelled this season, while our more skilled players have struggled. Just watch us for a few games and how our offense is played in the offensive zone. Mostly dup in chase, no creativity, and just grind it out.

Why does Lemuiex get PP time and is on in the final minute of the game with the goalie pulled? Because he plays the type of game that he wants everyone else to play. Why does Gauthier keep getting benched? Because he has the size and strength to be a grinder but he was trying to be too cute in the offensive zone. Why did Laf look more dynamic in games 1-3 of the season and been regressing ever since? Why did the same thing happen to Kakko last year?

After awhile you start adding everything up and you can clearly see what Quinn's philosophy is. He wants his team to play mistake free hockey and is willing to kill creativity and suppress risk taking to do get there. Funny, because we still make just as many mistakes regardless.

I think this is the number 1 reason Quinn should be fired.

 

[nyrleetch]

I think this is based on the fact that our entire offense has been predicated on dumping the puck and grinding it out in the offensive zone. This is why our third and fourth line players (Blackwell, Rooney, PDG) have all excelled this season, while our more skilled players have struggled. Just watch us for a few games and how our offense is played in the offensive zone. Mostly dup in chase, no creativity, and just grind it out.

Why does Lemuiex get PP time and is on in the final minute of the game with the goalie pulled? Because he plays the type of game that he wants everyone else to play. Why does Gauthier keep getting benched? Because he has the size and strength to be a grinder but he was trying to be too cute in the offensive zone. Why did Laf look more dynamic in games 1-3 of the season and been regressing ever since? Why did the same thing happen to Kakko last year?

After awhile you start adding everything up and you can clearly see what Quinn's philosophy is. He wants his team to play mistake free hockey and is willing to kill creativity and suppress risk taking to do get there. Funny, because we still make just as many mistakes regardless.

Well said. Let the kids make mistakes, this isn't a cup contender.

Also Lemuiex getting PP time at all, let alone late is pretty maddening. Talking about a guy with 22 points over his last 75 games, but I digress, Quinn is really getting on my nerves.

 

[haveandare]

I think this is based on the fact that our entire offense has been predicated on dumping the puck and grinding it out in the offensive zone. This is why our third and fourth line players (Blackwell, Rooney, PDG) have all excelled this season, while our more skilled players have struggled. Just watch us for a few games and how our offense is played in the offensive zone. Mostly dup in chase, no creativity, and just grind it out.

Why does Lemuiex get PP time and is on in the final minute of the game with the goalie pulled? Because he plays the type of game that he wants everyone else to play. Why does Gauthier keep getting benched? Because he has the size and strength to be a grinder but he was trying to be too cute in the offensive zone. Why did Laf look more dynamic in games 1-3 of the season and been regressing ever since? Why did the same thing happen to Kakko last year?

After awhile you start adding everything up and you can clearly see what Quinn's philosophy is. He wants his team to play mistake free hockey and is willing to kill creativity and suppress risk taking to do get there. Funny, because we still make just as many mistakes regardless.

The skill players get the most minutes by far and they had career years with this same coach last year though.

 

[The New Russian Five]

The skill players get the most minutes by far and they had career years with this same coach last year though.

I think last year Quinn was a bit more hands off because Panarin and Zibanejad flew out of the gate and chemistry on the top two lines clicked right away. I think this year, especially after the weak performance by in the bubble games he's trying to be more assertive, And as players struggle more, he doubles down. Quinn is fine when things are firing on all cylinders, what he's terrible at is fixing a team that is slumping.

Lias, Kravtsov, Kakko, Lafreniere. That is 4 players who are top 10 picks that have now underperformed when under his leadership. Kravtsov is a perfect example looking at just how well he bounced back this year after how deflated he was last year when playing for the rangers org. At some point you have to admit there is a pattern with a common denominator.

 

[aufheben]

The skill players get the most minutes by far and they had career years with this same coach last year though.

They also do nothing but make fancy plays lol