Aleksander Barkov now vs Jonathan Toews prime?

[Raccoon Jesus]

Still not the level that Kane and Keith were on those Hawks teams.

Maybe not but it's a far cry from the "Toews was carried, Barkov is carrying" bullshit narrative that some are trying to peddle with it.

 

[triggrman]

Maybe not but it's a far cry from the "Toews was carried, Barkov is carrying" bullshit narrative that some are trying to peddle with it.

Agreed but those Hawks teams were so stacked. Hossa, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Byfuglien were also great on those teams.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Agreed but those Hawks teams were so stacked. Hossa, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Byfuglien were also great on those teams.

Florida was in the SCF the year before as well. At what point do they get recognition for having an elite roster and collectively being a great team?

 

[BlueSeal]

Barkov is underrated.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Agreed but those Hawks teams were so stacked. Hossa, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Byfuglien were also great on those teams.

They certainly were--and similarly, Toews was the beating heart.

I just think it's a little premature to be declaring late-career Hossa, Hjalmarsson, Byfuglien on some wholly different level than a 57-goal Reinhart, 100+ point Tkachuk and Huberdeau, Norris-caliber Forsling, clutch-ass Verhaege. Like Forsling, Reinhart, no one was signing Hammer or Buff's praises until after the Cups started flowing.

Keith's maybe a different animal entirely I'll grant that because I'm a huge Duncan fan but he's not the difference between one guy getting carried and one guy carrying. The hyperbole makes the discussion difficult.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Toews was overated as hell but the pendulum has swung and he is now almost as equally underrated now to make up for that.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Toews was overated as hell but the pendulum has swung and he is now almost as equally underrated now to make up for that.

I always see this and (being as biased as I am) still can’t understand why. There was a very small minority saying he was better than Crosby which was never true even amongst 90% of Hawks fans. The guy was an undeniable effective, dominant, shutdown, 1C. He and his cohort of linemates would routinely shutdown the opposition, usually the other teams 1st or 2nd line, while being a 5v5 monster who captained his team to 3 Cups and 5 WCF appearances in 7 seasons.

Why the criticism of the guy. Players like him, Kopitar, Bergeron, and now Barkov are the engines behind 1,000 HP super cars that you win championships with. OMFG he was in a photo with all time NHL greats to hype up the league and the Hawks, big freaking deal. The guy was a HoF talent who was among the best at his position. He deserves every ounce of credit for the Hawks success. It’s IMHO ignorant and a low-effort opinion to say he was overrated.

Barkov is one of my favorite players in the game precisely because he plays the way Toews and the like played. No he didn’t put up 100+ points a season but his output was so objectively impactful in all facets of his game that it doesn’t really matter. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

It's a classic question, do you prefer a player to be tangibly or intangibly good?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I always see this and (being as biased as I am) still can’t understand why. There was a very small minority saying he was better than Crosby which was never true even amongst 90% of Hawks fans. The guy was an undeniable effective, dominant, shutdown, 1C. He and his cohort of linemates would routinely shutdown the opposition, usually the other teams 1st or 2nd line, while being a 5v5 monster who captained his team to 3 Cups and 5 WCF appearances in 7 seasons.

Why the criticism of the guy. Players like him, Kopitar, Bergeron, and now Barkov are the engines behind 1,000 HP super cars that you win championships with. OMFG he was in a photo with all time NHL greats to hype up the league and the Hawks, big freaking deal. The guy was a HoF talent who was among the best at his position. He deserves every ounce of credit for the Hawks success. It’s IMHO ignorant and a low-effort opinion to say he was overrated.

Barkov is one of my favorite players in the game precisely because he plays the way Toews and the like played. No he didn’t put up 100+ points a season but his output was so objectively impactful in all facets of his game that it doesn’t really matter. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

Yeah that's why I'm so invested in this one.

I never understand why Barkov now and Bergeron previously got all the credit they deserved, yet Toews gets slammed and Kopitar overlooked.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

I always see this and (being as biased as I am) still can’t understand why. There was a very small minority saying he was better than Crosby which was never true even amongst 90% of Hawks fans. The guy was an undeniable effective, dominant, shutdown, 1C. He and his cohort of linemates would routinely shutdown the opposition, usually the other teams 1st or 2nd line, while being a 5v5 monster who captained his team to 3 Cups and 5 WCF appearances in 7 seasons.

Why the criticism of the guy. Players like him, Kopitar, Bergeron, and now Barkov are the engines behind 1,000 HP super cars that you win championships with. OMFG he was in a photo with all time NHL greats to hype up the league and the Hawks, big freaking deal. The guy was a HoF talent who was among the best at his position. He deserves every ounce of credit for the Hawks success. It’s IMHO ignorant and a low-effort opinion to say he was overrated.

Barkov is one of my favorite players in the game precisely because he plays the way Toews and the like played. No he didn’t put up 100+ points a season but his output was so objectively impactful in all facets of his game that it doesn’t really matter. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

He was overated on hfboards but the real damage was on TSN etc (maybe you’re not Canadian). He was a god and that was how most of us viewed most of our hockey content back in the day. Captain canada this and that it never stopped. If you compare the hype he got to Kopitar on the same network it was night and day.

That being said there’s revisionist history going on the other way. People act as if he was inept offensively and his peers/comparables blow him out of the water. It’s not true. I picked toews in the poll

 

[x Tame Impala]

He was overated on hfboards but the real damage was on TSN etc (maybe you’re not Canadian). He was a god and that was how most of us viewed most of our hockey content back in the day. Captain canada this and that it never stopped. If you compare the hype he got to Kopitar on the same network it was night and day.

That being said there’s revisionist history going on the other way. People act as if he was inept offensively and his peers/comparables blow him out of the water. It’s not true. I picked toews in the poll

Not Canadian but I’m familiar with how ESPN makes and runs with their narratives. I don’t care what TSN said or hyped him up as. As a hardcore hockey fan that most of us most be here to post on a hockey board in July, Toews’ impact was as clear as day.

Not as offensively talented as Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos but overall undeniably a HoF talent a team was able to win multiple championships with.

Yeah that's why I'm so invested in this one.

I never understand why Barkov now and Bergeron previously got all the credit they deserved, yet Toews gets slammed and Kopitar overlooked.

Naturally, homie. It’s a mutual feeling with Kopitar/Doughty.

 

[JaegerDice]

It's a classic question, do you prefer a player to be tangibly or intangibly good?

Both players are tangibly great.

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

If I pick Barkov, it's recency bias. If I pick Towes, it's nostalgia. How to choose, how to choose...

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

Panthers would have 2 cups if they had prime Toews.

Dude was an animal when it mattered most.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Prime Toews, its close though

Never liked the overhyping of Toews based on team results, but he was great.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

Toews was better this poll is a joke

 

[Regal]

Their 5v5 scoring levels were essentially identical when on the ice together from 2011-12 to 2013-14 (59 points for Toews, 58 points for Hossa).


I think you mean 5 years, not 6?

When he played with Kane, he was certainly not the primary offensive driver. Without Kane, he and Hossa worked well to drive offense together, though that was typically their secondary purpose.

Those are all great examples of guys who are great complimentary offensive players (ignoring Jagr's prime, obviously). Guys like Kane and Hossa are much more well rounded offensive threats.

I wrote 13-14 but meant 14–15, so 6 years. I was going partly off memory and looking at 2013 where Toews was far ahead, so I was off on saying he was better. But I ran the numbers and Toews and his linemates were generally right around the same level, however Toews scored better without them than all of them did without him. He also had more primary points than all of them.


From 07-08 to 14-15 at 5v5


KANE
Toews with Kane
3523:58
145 Points, 2.47 P/60

Kane with Toews
3523:58 minutes
151 points, 2.57 P/60

Toews without Kane
4429:53 minutes
164 points, 2.22 P/60

Kane without Toews
4985:58 minutes
175 points, 2.11 P/60

SHARP

Toews with Sharp
2641:10 minutes
120 points, 2.73 P/60

Sharp with Toews
2641:10 minutes
126 points, 2.86 P/60

Toews without Sharp
5312:21 minutes
189 points, 2.13 P/60

Sharp without Toews
4832:12 minutes
142 points, 1.76 P/60

HOSSA

Toews with Hossa
2779:33 minutes
108 points, 2.33 P/60

Hossa with Toews
2779:33 minutes
110 points, 2.37 P/60

Toews without Hossa
5173:58 minutes
201 points, 2.33 P/60

Hossa without Toews
2724:48 minutes
87 points, 1.92 P/60

I have trouble believing that a guy who is basically scoring the same as his linemates isn’t a big factor in the play driving of his line, especially if they fall off more than he does without each other. I don’t believe Sharp or Hawks version Hossa (or Saad) were really better play drivers than Barkov’s wingers I listed. Hossa was a complementary offensive player by that point.

Kane was better than what Barkov had to some extent, but he also wasn’t an elite scorer in the regular season until 2013 when he was no longer Toews’ linemate. Before that he had one 9th place scoring finish and and no top 10 point per game finishes. From 07-08 to 11-12, Kane was 23rd in points per game (Toews was 31st). So it wasn’t the same as playing with Art Ross contending Kane.

I wouldn’t say Toews was ever the guy on his line offensively where everything ran through him the way say a Crosby was with Kunitz and Dupuis at the time, but I think he was at least as important as his linemates at driving play.

 

[CanadienShark]

Barkov.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Yeah that's why I'm so invested in this one.

I never understand why Barkov now and Bergeron previously got all the credit they deserved, yet Toews gets slammed and Kopitar overlooked.

Because Toews was put into a square peg in a round hole situation.

With Ovechkin's sudden decline the media needed someone else to drive a made up rivalry. (Canada's version of LeBron vs Kobe)

Toews was the one picked and they ran with it hard, to be fair they rarely did say Toews was better than Crosby but he was always the guy brought up. Because you couldn't make a case for someone who struggled to even hit 70 points a year (injuries) Toews' argument was always Cups

When the Hawks won it was because of Toews, when they lost it was never Toews' fault.

What's funny is while this really started up is during Toews' struggles in the playoffs just 7 goals in a 46 game stretch.

 

[JaegerDice]

Because Toews was put into a square peg in a round hole situation.

With Ovechkin's sudden decline the media needed someone else to drive a made up rivalry. (Canada's version of LeBron vs Kobe)

Toews was the one picked and they ran with it hard, to be fair they rarely did say Toews was better than Crosby but he was always the guy brought up. Because you couldn't make a case for someone who struggled to even hit 70 points a year (injuries) Toews' argument was always Cups

When the Hawks won it was because of Toews, when they lost it was never Toews' fault.

What's funny is while this really started up is during Toews' struggles in the playoffs just 7 goals in a 46 game stretch.

The media didn't 'select' Toews, Toews thrust himself into the conversation in 2010 by out-performing Crosby (and everybody else on his team) at the Olympics, with the world watching. He went on to a dominant playoff run, where he took a long-suffering original 6 team to their first cup in decades and won the Conn Smythe in doing so.

Nobody outside of Chicago was really paying that much attention to Toews before that.

He MADE them pay attention.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

This is Jonathan Toews we’re talking about, not Joe Thornton or Patrick Marleau. This is a player that always came up big in the big moments.

You're thinking of Dave Bolland maybe??

 

[JaegerDice]

You're thinking of Dave Bolland maybe??

Dave Bolland came up big in some moments too.

Ironically, his most famous big moment came in a game where Toews was the best skater on the ice.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Both are matchup kings.
I chose Toews of course, maybe due to homerism but also because of his tendency to make plays or score clutch goals in crucial situations.

2009
-Series-winning goal in 2009 against Vancouver (2g 1a in that game)

2010
-Series-winning goal in 2010 against Nashville (1g 2a in that game)
-Assisted on series-winning goal in 2010 against San Jose in the WCF (Buff)

2011
-Short-handed goal with 2mins left of Game 7 to force OT against Vancouver in 2011

2012
-Game 5 OT winner against Phoenix in 2012

2013
-Primary assist on series-winning 2OT goal in WCF against LA in 2013 (Put it on Kane's tape for heartbreaker celly goal)
-Primary assist on game-tying goal in game 6 against Boston in the SCF in 2013 with 1:16 left in period 3 (also 1g in that game)

2014
-OT winner in game 5 against St. Louis in 2014
-Series-winning goal against St. Louis in game 6 in 2014

2015
-1g and 2a in series-clinching game 6 against Nashville in 2015
-Primary assist on series-clinching goal in game 4 against Minnesota in 2015 (Hossa)
-2 goals with under 2mins to play in game 5 against Anaheim in 2015 forcing OT
-First two goals of series-winning game 7 against Anaheim in 2015 WCF

2020
-Primary assist on series-clinching goal against Edmonton in 2020 (Kubalik)

As a Blackhawks fan those years spoiled us. We had Kane, Toews, and Seabrook who were all clutch in those types of situations.

Here's a sample:
Pay attention to the time on the clock, the score, the importance of the game, etc.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

The media didn't 'select' Toews, Toews thrust himself into the conversation in 2010 by out-performing Crosby (and everybody else on his team) at the Olympics, with the world watching. He went on to a dominant playoff run, where he took a long-suffering original 6 team to their first cup in decades and won the Conn Smythe in doing so.

Nobody outside of Chicago was really paying that much attention to Toews before that.

He MADE them pay attention.

I mean, that's the thing he played well in a six game exhibition tournament and then had a really great first half of the playoffs that year and the media just blew it up.

It would be like today if the media today started to try and say Barkov was the best player in the world with leading his team to a cup and multiple selkes

 

[x Tame Impala]

I mean, that's the thing he played well in a six game exhibition tournament and then had a really great first half of the playoffs that year and the media just blew it up.

It would be like today if the media today started to try and say Barkov was the best player in the world with leading his team to a cup and multiple selkes

You're such a joke dude. "Six game exhibition tournament"...GTFO

I can't believe you're keeping up with this schtick the last 7 years of your life