Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[McRanger]

AV hasn't really done anything to change the direction of the team. This is the same team from the start of the season.

The difference between our 1-5-2 start and our 12-4 recent run is as simple as the puck finally going in for us and not going in for the opposition.

1-5-2 start
Opposition shooting percentage: 11.3%
Rangers shooting percentage: 7.3%

12-4 run
Opposition shooting percentage: 8.2%
Rangers shooting percentage: 11.8%

Hank is pretty much solely responsible for decrease in goals. The defense has been a mess even with McD in the lineup. Going from stopping 88.7% of shots to 91.8% of shots is a huge difference, there really isn't much more we can ask of him right now.

As for scoring, avoiding both strings of hot goalies and terrible luck have been the biggest factors. PP scoring is actually down slightly. The Rangers have been top 3 in shooting percentage the past two seasons averaging ~10%. They weren't going to stay in the cellar forever.

So yeah good for AV for not getting fired. But this team still has some holes, runs a system that seems like it should have an accompanying Benny Hill soundtrack and has a coach that, at least in my opinion, can't be trusted to make needed adjustments or smart personnel decisions.

 

[Tawnos]

Save percentage is a statistic that’s a combination of how well the goalie is playing and how well the team executes their defensive system.

In other words, goaltending and coaching.

 

[bl02]

Flawed coach but still impressive how for the most part the team did not give up on him with that horrendous start.
You would have thought after being here for a while (ny years seems like decades lol) that the players have responded. Best record in November in a league where there are no easy games says a lot Hank being amazing and all

 

[DanielBrassard]

Save percentage is a statistic that’s a combination of how well the goalie is playing and how well the team executes their defensive system.

In other words, goaltending and coaching.

But the Rangers have not exactly played well defensively, and if you take stock in xG numbers, we are worst in the NHL. So I don't see how that can be on behalf of good coaching.

 

[True Blue]

Flawed coach but still impressive how for the most part the team did not give up on him with that horrendous start.
You would have thought after being here for a while (ny years seems like decades lol) that the players have responded. Best record in November in a league where there are no easy games says a lot Hank being amazing and all

The problem is that you do not know what team this truly is. The one that started out so poorly, the one that played a hot game, or the one that won a few ugly games. Time will tell if the truth is in the middle, which is still mediocre.

 

[Ori]

Brooks read the HF forum, especially my comments. It`s a gold mine for journalists, haha. `grin`
In before we see Smith wedding history in the media with newly signed contract unless he start playing good quality 4th pairing hockey!

 

[Tawnos]

But the Rangers have not exactly played well defensively, and if you take stock in xG numbers, we are worst in the NHL. So I don't see how that can be on behalf of good coaching.

Admittedly, I’m not sure of everything that goes into xG, but if it’s not finding a way to quantify both how well the goalie is seeing the shots he’s saving and how well teams clear away rebounds, then it isn’t measuring the effectiveness of the defenders well.

There’s another thing about the calmness and steadiness of the team that you can generally see. The Rangers haven’t had it in first periods, but they’ve been solid the rest of the time.

 

[ZiGOODejad]

The leash this guy has is way too long.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Admittedly, I’m not sure of everything that goes into xG, but if it’s not finding a way to quantify both how well the goalie is seeing the shots he’s saving and how well teams clear away rebounds, then it isn’t measuring the effectiveness of the defenders well.

There’s another thing about the calmness and steadiness of the team that you can generally see. The Rangers haven’t had it in first periods, but they’ve been solid the rest of the time.

AV likes to get his players into fixed lines and roles. We're only just now seeing those come together. I remember 13-14 being madness until 67-16-36 were solidified and Kreider was called up to complete the top line. Seems like with Miller as 3C things have finally started to settle.

Hopefully, the defense is still in-progress. Though even there it's benefitted from the stability of the 2nd pair, 76-22. Earlier I was calling for Boo to get a shot to help sort out the forwards. Hopefully, the young defensemen who impressed in camp will get looks this year. Not as likely, but we'll have trouble all season as long as we're running a 6 with Staal and Kampfer AND Holden in it.

 

[Ail]

Save percentage is a statistic that’s a combination of how well the goalie is playing and how well the team executes their defensive system.

In other words, goaltending and coaching.

"Save percentage (often known by such symbols as SV%, SVS%, SVP, PCT) is a statistic in many sports that track saves as a statistic.

In ice hockey and lacrosse statistic that represents the percentage of shots on goal a goaltender stops. It is calculated by dividing the number of saves by the total number of shots on goal."

This is why people falsely and unfairly credit the Rangers defense for the past decade as factor in the success of Henrik Lundqvist when it has pretty much been the complete opposite. Save percentage is NOT a reflection of the defense or coaching at all. A team can play shit defense and the goaltender can stand on his head, a defense can play perfect hockey and the goaltender can look like a soft serve station at the all you can eat Asian buffet.

 

[Inferno]

yeah its more important to look at high danger shots, high danger saves, and then go ont o medium danger and then low danger.

henrik has consistently, year in and year out, been among the most battered goalies in terms of high danger shots seen.

 

[True Blue]

Looks like mediocrity it is. As usual, unless Henke is standing on his head, AV's approach is exposed. There is ZERO done to help the goalie.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Just gonna put these tweets here and ask this question, why isn't AV fired yet?

 

[Filthy Dangles]

AV hasn't really done anything to change the direction of the team. This is the same team from the start of the season.

The difference between our 1-5-2 start and our 12-4 recent run is as simple as the puck finally going in for us and not going in for the opposition.

1-5-2 start
Opposition shooting percentage: 11.3%
Rangers shooting percentage: 7.3%

12-4 run
Opposition shooting percentage: 8.2%
Rangers shooting percentage: 11.8%

Hank is pretty much solely responsible for decrease in goals. The defense has been a mess even with McD in the lineup. Going from stopping 88.7% of shots to 91.8% of shots is a huge difference, there really isn't much more we can ask of him right now.

As for scoring, avoiding both strings of hot goalies and terrible luck have been the biggest factors. PP scoring is actually down slightly. The Rangers have been top 3 in shooting percentage the past two seasons averaging ~10%. They weren't going to stay in the cellar forever.

So yeah good for AV for not getting fired. But this team still has some holes, runs a system that seems like it should have an accompanying Benny Hill soundtrack and has a coach that, at least in my opinion, can't be trusted to make needed adjustments or smart personnel decisions.

xGF% over 1-5-2 run: 47%

xGF% over 12-4 run: 51.3%

It's more than just luck as you claim, the team is playing better and getting better looks.

 

[TheTakedown]

Looks like mediocrity it is. As usual, unless Henke is standing on his head, AV's approach is exposed. There is ZERO done to help the goalie.

And this is the problem with his system. It *REQUIRES* a top tier goaltender.

It's an antiquated system that allows too many shots against.

on the other hand the offense isn't bad either so it's part of the price paid. There's a known quantity or scale of offense vs defense, AV's sacrifices Defense for Offense, and then requires a goaltender to make up for it.

 

[Yahoo89]

AV has got to go, he had buch on the fourth line up until he was about to get fired. What happened after that? The team took off offensively. The PP was on fire, who works the PP? NOT av, Arniel does, Arniel had Buch on the first PP because he knew he should be playing up. The forwards and the powerplay and excellent play by Hank masked the same problems we were having before the great run. Bad D men playing way too much and TERRIBLE first period starts. Now do not try to blame the D on the D coach because AV has done this through THREE defensive coaches now and its the SAME result. Staal and Holden have gotten WAY too much responsibility and ice time for their caliber of play and now AV has a new half-good toy to play with, Kampfer. If gorton was smart hed send Kampfer and Holden down and take away his toys, bring up either graves, deangelo or pionk and force him to play them. Those guys at this point are just as good as the terrible three and would actually LEARN from playing up and making mistakes, unlike the 3 that are proven to not improve no matter how much they play. We all know Staal will never sit.

 

[will1066]

You're watching AV Gonna AV in 60. We now move ahead in the action.

 

[Tawnos]

"Save percentage (often known by such symbols as SV%, SVS%, SVP, PCT) is a statistic in many sports that track saves as a statistic.

In ice hockey and lacrosse statistic that represents the percentage of shots on goal a goaltender stops. It is calculated by dividing the number of saves by the total number of shots on goal."

This is why people falsely and unfairly credit the Rangers defense for the past decade as factor in the success of Henrik Lundqvist when it has pretty much been the complete opposite. Save percentage is NOT a reflection of the defense or coaching at all. A team can play **** defense and the goaltender can stand on his head, a defense can play perfect hockey and the goaltender can look like a soft serve station at the all you can eat Asian buffet.

Thanks. I attended elementary school. If I wanted a braindead argument I would have asked for it.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

"Save percentage (often known by such symbols as SV%, SVS%, SVP, PCT) is a statistic in many sports that track saves as a statistic.

In ice hockey and lacrosse statistic that represents the percentage of shots on goal a goaltender stops. It is calculated by dividing the number of saves by the total number of shots on goal."

This is why people falsely and unfairly credit the Rangers defense for the past decade as factor in the success of Henrik Lundqvist when it has pretty much been the complete opposite. Save percentage is NOT a reflection of the defense or coaching at all. A team can play **** defense and the goaltender can stand on his head, a defense can play perfect hockey and the goaltender can look like a soft serve station at the all you can eat Asian buffet.

lol @ the condescension.

you don't know what you're talking about if you think goaltending and defense are 100% mutually exclusive

 

[Ail]

Thanks. I attended elementary school.

Elementary school I am sure of, everything after is where it becomes unclear.

lol @ the condescension.

you don't know what you're talking about if you think goaltending and defense are 100% mutually exclusive

Did I post that? I said save percentage is not representative of defense impacting goaltending, because it isn't.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Did I post that? I said save percentage is not representative of defense impacting goaltending, because it isn't.

I wouldn't agree with the OP's definition that it's "combination...how well the team executes their defensive system. " but it's proven that as shots go up, so does SV% but you seem to be implying there's not much of a relationship, if any.

Shots Against and Even Strength Shooting Percentage

Premises: Defense primarily controls how many shots the goalie sees. The Goalies SV% goes up as the number of shots go up.

Conclusion: Defense impacts what a goalies SV% might be.


The conclusion to be drawn is not "The Rangers defense and defensive system are good at keeping shots to the outside and inflating Henrik's SV%" rather "The Rangers defense gives up a lot of shots which causes Henrik's SV% to perhaps be a little higher than what it would be on a different team who didn't regularly concede so many shots."

 

[Tawnos]

Elementary school I am sure of, everything after is where it becomes unclear.



Did I post that? I said save percentage is not representative of defense impacting goaltending, because it isn't.

All you did was say how save percentage is calculated. Statistics like that tell you what happened, but do nothing to tell you how it happened.

I would be surprised if a single goalie in the league thought their save percentage stayed the same no matter what their team in front of them was doing.

Lundqvist’s save percentage in 3 seasons (10-11 to 12-13) playing as part of the 6 goalie system of Tortorella* was 0.926. In the three seasons before that, his save percentage was 0.917. In the three seasons after that, his save percentage was 0.921.

There isn’t one reason for this. Some of it is a matter of Lundqvist being in his prime. Some of it is the relative quality of the team. To say that team system played no role is... I don’t even know what to call it.

*09-10 wasn’t under the 6-goalie system, although Torts was coach. He spent a lot of that year trying to stick with the “safe is death” philosophy he came to the Rangers with, before realizing we didn’t have the horses for it.

 

[mike14]

yeah its more important to look at high danger shots, high danger saves, and then go ont o medium danger and then low danger.

henrik has consistently, year in and year out, been among the most battered goalies in terms of high danger shots seen.

At the risk of sounding incredibly stupid (certainly wouldn't be the first time); does that chart show high danger shots or all chances against?

 

[Tawnos]

I wouldn't agree with the OP's definition that it's "combination...how well the team executes their defensive system. " but it's proven that as shots go up, so does SV% but you seem to be implying there's not much of a relationship, if any.

Shots Against and Even Strength Shooting Percentage

Premises: Defense primarily controls how many shots the goalie sees. The Goalies SV% goes up as the number of shots go up.

Conclusion: Defense impacts what a goalies SV% might be.


The conclusion to be drawn is not "The Rangers defense and defensive system are good at keeping shots to the outside and inflating Henrik's SV%" rather "The Rangers defense gives up a lot of shots which causes Henrik's SV% to perhaps be a little higher than what it would be on a different team who didn't regularly concede so many shots."

Shots to the outside are VERY far from the only goal of a defensive system.

Shots, from high danger areas or not, are going to occur. It’s just not possible to stop them from occuring and depending on the opposition, sometimes even limiting them. Defensive systems aren’t just designed to prevent, they’re designed to react as well.

The Rangers employ a system that specifically relies on a highly talented goaltender to make up for moments where the opposition will exploit extra weaknesses. Those extra weaknesses are an intentional trade off in exchange for continual movement of skaters. That continual movement is about taking advantage of what happens AFTER the shot attempt. Clear away a rebound to a teammate already moving and he’s up and out of the zone quickly. Recover a blocked shot and you’ve got a teammate already moving... ready to fly the zone quickly. Many of those cases, one, maybe two passes and the team is on offense. Its the reaction to what happens after a shot attempt that can raise a goaltenders save percentage.

The thing is that this all requires defensive players to be quick on the puck and be in good position to move to transition. It requires execution. Execution requires buy-in. Buy-in comes from the coach. It’s a major part of his job. Defensive execution is entirely a reflection of coaching.

Lundqvist is not the goaltender he was. I agree with the idea that the system the Rangers play is not right for the goaltender Lundqvist is. Shot suppression should be the goal. It isn’t with the Rangers. You can tell when they’re executing their system well though.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Did I post that? I said save percentage is not representative of defense impacting goaltending, because it isn't.

Messed up on my phone and took your name out ail.

I think what you're saying and what you think you're saying are two different things.

Or you're just wrong.

What you're saying is that d has no effect on sv%. (Thats what the words you chose mean) That's wrong. If the d is limiting high danger shots then of course there's a relationship. Its obvious you know this but for whatever reason your words are slightly contradicting this

What i think you mean is that if you ONLY look at sv% it doesnt tell you nearly enough about the D.