Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[GoAwayPanarin]

Call someone out for using a small sample size and follow it up by using an even smaller one.

Well done BRB.

AV's ineptitude extends further back than just this season, try to keep up.

I totally agree that AV shouldn't stay here after this year. The team can score, but they don't play an efficient style of game. It's deja Vu with the Torts era in his last year.

Just like back then, I think that goes back to the roster issue though. There's no center that can dominate possession. Impossible to deploy without the personnel.

So you can hire Julien or Sutter, but at the end of the day the elephant in the room remains. Easy to coach with Bergeron, Kopitar, Carter and Krejci centering your lines. Am I doing this right?

FWIW, the Habs have dominated possession since Julien took over there. They have even less to work with at the C position than the Rangers do.

It hasn't helped them win games but thats due to an overall lack of depth up and down the lineup, not necessarily their depth down the middle (the myth that this is the most important position should have died with the Blackhawks winning 3 times.)

 

[Cassano]

Toews does that but he's the most overrated player in the league apparently.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Im not sure what kind of nanny nanny poo poo post this is 4 games into the season - especially when those changes yielded 2 goals against over the previous 2 games (not counting empty netter) after the Rangers got their doors blown off defensively in the first 2 games.

Are you actually advocating that Kampfer should be a staple of our blueline this season? That couldn't possibly be the case, could it?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Toews is one guy.

The Hawks won the cup in 2013 with him doing pretty much nothing for 3 and a half rounds.

I have nothing but love for Toews, but their depth at center has always been the weak point of their teams. They win because they're pretty much awesome every where else.

 

[Inferno]

AV basically says verbatim that he doesnt do anything with regards to goaltending..that he leaves the goalie to Benny....

somehow, its then sacrosanct to credit Benny for turning these goalies into strong players.

although im not sure sacrosanct is the proper word to use in that sentence...but i feel smarter for knowing that its probably closeish...so..yeah.

 

[Inferno]

from this..
http://blueseatblogs.com/2016/08/12/henrik-lundqvists-called-decline/

He's basically ridden Benoit Allaires jock to this false notion of him being a great coach.

If he didnt have such a great goalie coach with such a great stable of goalies..he'd have been fired ages ago.

Lundqvist + Luonogo... rode those guys into some bs false narrative that's going to screw this franchise through a generational goalies career...and henrik is absolutely a generational goalie..i cant believe anyone as smart as Edge would even try to argue otherwise.

 

[Edge]

@Edge - That first paragraph, are you kidding me?! If you dive into the numbers a bit then it's quite clear that Henrik Lundqvist is a generational goalie, he's got a good case for the 2nd best goalie in the "modern" (70s/80's-now) era after Hasek. His consistency is completely unheard of.
So yes, Henrik Lundqvist is definitely a generational goalie.

He's consistently among the best goalies of his era, an elite talent who is going into the HOF. But, no, sorry he's not a generational talent.

Hasek, with two Harts, six Vezinas, six first all star teams, etc. etc. is a generational talent.

And that's a pretty clear distinction.

 

[Inferno]

He's consistently among the best goalies of his era, an elite talent who is going into the HOF. But, no, sorry he's not a generational talent.

Hasek, with two Harts, six Vezinas, six first all star teams, etc. etc. is a generational talent.

And that's a pretty clear distinction.

just because Hasek is better doesnt mean Henrik isnt generational.

 

[Inferno]

Crosby has X, Y, Z more than Ovechkin.

Therefore, Ovechkin isnt generational.

what?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

It's amazing that AV has had 2 of the best goalies of this generation (Hank and Luongo) and another 2 legitimate starters (Talbot and Schneider) as their back ups with the jury still out on Raanta joining the latter group.

 

[Edge]

from this..
http://blueseatblogs.com/2016/08/12/henrik-lundqvists-called-decline/

He's basically ridden Benoit Allaires jock to this false notion of him being a great coach.

If he didnt have such a great goalie coach with such a great stable of goalies..he'd have been fired ages ago.

Lundqvist + Luonogo... rode those guys into some bs false narrative that's going to screw this franchise through a generational goalies career...and henrik is absolutely a generational goalie..i cant believe anyone as smart as Edge would even try to argue otherwise.

In any given year, you're going to tell me that a consensus of players, coaches, pundits and fans viewed Henrik Lundqvist as THE absolute BEST at this position?

And you're going to tell me that someone can be a generational goalie with one vezina, no cups, and a single first team all star selection?

The man is elite and one of the tops of his position. But that is not a generational resume.

Enlighten me, show me another generational player with that resume.

 

[Edge]

To me this issue isn't Lundqvist, the issue is the use of the word generational.

Generational is incredibly rarefied air.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Am I the only one angry about how AV wastes camp and preseason time??

Every year he’s been here we stink starting the year(except the one year Hank went god mode). The lines and pairings seem to be made in a blender. I’m not sure there’s thinking behind any of it other than throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks

 

[Inferno]

so youre using individual awards are your baseline?

and stanley cups? Chris Osgood won 3 of them..who gives a crap about that?

and yeah..id say Henrik would have been called the best goalie a number of years, including the year he won his Vezina, and the other what...3 or 4 that he was nominated? If Henriks last name was LaFleur or something he'd be all anyone would talk about..

hes only like 40something wins behind Luonogo depsite playing like 200 less games for most active wins.. 9 behind him for active shutouts. best save percentage for all active goalies over say 550 GP..tied for best sv% if you use say 400GP.
2nd in active players for goals saved above average...5th all time.
What goalie is there of this generation with his level of consistency, wins, goals saved above average, etc Theres basically 2...and maybe 3 eventually. Roberto Luongo...and Henrik Lundqvist..after all is said and done, Henrik will surpass Luonogo across the board...maybe Carey Price will be up there.

Generational. Nobody in this generation is as good....MAYBE Luongo...but just because A>B doesnt diminish just how good B is.

there are only 2 goalies I will say, hands down, no contest, are better than Henrik Lundqvist. Dominik Hasek, and Patrick Roy. You can make an argument with say...5-10 other goalies..I'd still rank Henrik 3rd behind those, but feel free to disagree.

But again...just because Sidney Crosby isnt Wayne Gretzky doesnt diminish who Sidney Crosby is.

 

[Inferno]

Am I the only one angry about how AV wastes camp and preseason time??

Every year he’s been here we stink starting the year(except the one year Hank went god mode). The lines and pairings seem to be made in a blender. I’m not sure there’s thinking behind any of it other than throwing **** at the wall and hoping something sticks

I have said this every single year...too many guys at camp...none of whom would ever stand a chance at playing for the roster...too much time trying to see how player x plays with player y. put your lines out there, let them play 3-4 games, and see how it goes.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

To me this issue isn't Lundqvist, the issue is the use of the word generational.

Generational is incredibly rarefied air.

Agree. Saying he's not generational is not a knock on him.

I'll only add that the word "generational" is thrown around much too carelessly around here.

 

[Ori]

yes, a good point. I felt it`s like a Déjà Vu experience.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

He's consistently among the best goalies of his era, an elite talent who is going into the HOF. But, no, sorry he's not a generational talent.

Hasek, with two Harts, six Vezinas, six first all star teams, etc. etc. is a generational talent.

And that's a pretty clear distinction.

When you can make a case for Lundqvist being the 2nd best goalie in the last 40-50 years then yes, he's generational.
Using team awards/stats or individual awards which are voted on by GM's who only go with their gut isn't very compelling.

Henrik Lundqvist is not among the best goalies of his era, he's BY FAR the best goalie of his era, noone is even remotely close.
Using Manny Elks K/82 and dSv% we can see that Henrik Lundqvist was a top-6 starter every single season between 07/08 and 15/16, that's 9 seasons in a row being a top-6 goalie in the league. If you use the common 3 year sample then he's a top-3 goalie in every 3 year stretch within that same time frame. That kind of consistency is completely unheard of when it comes to goalies.

 

[Edge]

I love Lundqvist, but if you polled his peers, fans, coaches, executives, and journalists, Lundqvist is not getting the nod as the second best goalie of the last 40-50 years. He's just not, sorry.

So either a lot of people are wrong and a few people on here are right, or we may be overstating his place in hockey history just a teeny weeny little bit here.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

I'd rather "poll" objective stats then poll his peers and those others you mentioned. Those people you talk about will look at Cups, GAA and Vezinas to decide who's better, that's AWFUL ways to evaluate a goalie.

Edit: Once these stats evolve even more and become accepted by mainstream media people will change their opinion on Hank, and it sure won't be for the worse. His shot quality adjusted numbers and his consistency is absurd.

 

[Edge]

so youre using individual awards are your baseline?

and stanley cups? Chris Osgood won 3 of them..who gives a crap about that?

and yeah..id say Henrik would have been called the best goalie a number of years, including the year he won his Vezina, and the other what...3 or 4 that he was nominated? If Henriks last name was LaFleur or something he'd be all anyone would talk about..

hes only like 40something wins behind Luonogo depsite playing like 200 less games for most active wins.. 9 behind him for active shutouts. best save percentage for all active goalies over say 550 GP..tied for best sv% if you use say 400GP.
2nd in active players for goals saved above average...5th all time.
What goalie is there of this generation with his level of consistency, wins, goals saved above average, etc Theres basically 2...and maybe 3 eventually. Roberto Luongo...and Henrik Lundqvist..after all is said and done, Henrik will surpass Luonogo across the board...maybe Carey Price will be up there.

Generational. Nobody in this generation is as good....MAYBE Luongo...but just because A>B doesnt diminish just how good B is.

there are only 2 goalies I will say, hands down, no contest, are better than Henrik Lundqvist. Dominik Hasek, and Patrick Roy. You can make an argument with say...5-10 other goalies..I'd still rank Henrik 3rd behind those, but feel free to disagree.

But again...just because Sidney Crosby isnt Wayne Gretzky doesnt diminish who Sidney Crosby is.

I'm using a number of factors.

Individual awards, team awards, etc.

And in all of those categories, Lundqvist is a sure-fire HOF player. An elite player.

But a generational talent is more than elite, more than a franchise player, they are transformative. They are on a level unlike any of their peers and they are recognized as such by said peers. They are the guys coaches, GMs and journalists clearly recognize as the best of the best. Not one of the best, not among the best, but THE BEST behind a shadow of a doubt. They are the guys who look like they are playing on a different level. Lundqvist has consistently ranked among the best, and in a given year been considered the best, but the generational talents are a handful of guys in history. They are the guys that 30 years later, are still talked about as if they are playing.

Again, I'm sorry, but Lundqvist is not that guy. The hardware doesn't back it up - and the opinions of those who play with him, work in, and cover the sport doesn't seem to back it up either. Outside of a few people on these boards, I've never heard anyone I've worked with, for, or still keep in contact with socially use the word generational. They've used elite. They've called him a future HOF'er. They respect the hell out of him. But generational is something different. With generational, you hear much more of a consensus among a wide variety of players. If you don't, then it means the guy probably isn't quite on that level.

So with that said, what are we to base it off of, the fact that maybe 10 people on here think he qualifies as generational? Sorry, but that's not going to cut it. I'm not really sure what else to tell you.

There's nothing wrong with not being generational. That's not an insult. There are many amazing players who were not generational talents.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Allow me to get this straight. Because I criticize an NHL coach, your only solution is that I should apply for the job?

Why are we here at all? Apparently either we have to fanboy cheerlead. If we do not do that, we should be applying for jobs in the NHL instead of using a public forum created specifically for fans to have debates?

You can criticize anyone you want BUT if you are capable of doing a better job than why not do it? I have coached over 2000 games but I would look like a complete amatuer at the NHL level so I know I personally couldn't do a better job.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'm still a staunch believer that the problem is the defensive system AV uses and not the players themselves. It's only one example but Girardi seems to be playing much better in Tampa than he has ever played under AV's asinine, overly complicated man system, and IMHO, if the system were simplified our defensemen would all look a lot better.

i agree with you. I have hated the defensive system for years and have also pointed out the predictability of the pk but for some reason more and more pro teams have gone to a similar defensive system. The system actually is great when played perfectly but it is so risk filled that is rarely played perfectly. I equate it to a high speed sportscar that does 0-60 in 3 seconds when running great but breaks down often.

 

[Captain Lindy]

My humble prediction:

After this weekend this team will most likely be 1-5. I don't see them playing out of their funk just yet. AV won't make it to Halloween.

 

[Tawnos]

The team's roster the past 2 seasons have been hot garbage. It's a miracle how they got 100+pts in both years to be honest.

Of course, the roster now is even worse.

I actually don't consider 15-16 to be an overachiever. That team was a bubble team on paper and performed like it.

Now, 13-14 was a bubble team on paper and went to the Final. 14-15 was a strong team on paper, but not President's Trophy strong. Last year was a bubble team on paper that finished 5th in the East (well inside of the bubble), had the 6th most ROWs in the league and the best road record overall. 3/4 years they outperformed where they should have been.

There's a reason why fans of other teams keep writing the Rangers off every year. It's hard to see because we're all so close to the team.

(Btw, who the hell are you? It doesn't tell us old screen names anymore)

Edit: you know what? The 15-16 team didn't finish the regular season as a bubble team. 4th in the East. The same number of points ahead of 9th as last year. They overachieved too... until the playoffs.