AHL Affiliate?

[Barclay Donaldson]

Its already been said Seattle will OWN IT. Its not going to be an independent club. AHL already said Seattle AHL team will be in the pacific. And i believe the start time is 21-22 as well.

No one said it'll be 20-21 start.

Calm down, guy. I've provided factual proof in the form of a quote from the CEO that's it's a possibility, and provided more evidence they're against the wall to do it. Don't go back to the same argument, come back with something that's going tangible to support your assertion, like they're going to hire a dozen scouts over the next 2 years and get 25 players ready to sign AHL contracts on July 1, 2021.

And they did say they wanted to own it. They also said they wanted to start in 2020-2021, but they're not. NHL teams have said they'll do a lot of things before, take it with a grain of salt. Everyone thought Melnyk was relocating and anyone with half a brain can figure out in the current NHL climate he can't or won't. People are doing the same with Jacobs saying that Houston will get a team, but no reliable source has said anything since the Fertitta-Bettman meeting and he found out he was dropping north of $600 million before the puck even drops. In 2011, Pegula guaranteed a cup by the end of this decade and we know how they're doing. Lemieux and the Penguins were going to KC and "everyone" knew it. The list goes on. Don't take what NHL owners say as automatic proof that doesn't need to be backed up.

They can't logistically sign 25 AHL players for their puck drop. Accept that. That's not happening. AHL teams average, and plan, to have more than 35 players rostered throughout the season. That's even more impossible. Accept that. It doesn't work from a hockey operations POV. Unless you have proof or an assertion that proves otherwise.

 

[gstommylee]

Calm down, guy. I've provided factual proof in the form of a quote from the CEO that's it's a possibility, and provided more evidence they're against the wall to do it. Don't go back to the same argument, come back with something that's going tangible to support your assertion, like they're going to hire a dozen scouts over the next 2 years and get 25 players ready to sign AHL contracts on July 1, 2021.

And they did say they wanted to own it. They also said they wanted to start in 2020-2021, but they're not. NHL teams have said they'll do a lot of things before, take it with a grain of salt. Everyone thought Melnyk was relocating and anyone with half a brain can figure out in the current NHL climate he can't or won't. People are doing the same with Jacobs saying that Houston will get a team, but no reliable source has said anything since the Fertitta-Bettman meeting and he found out he was dropping north of $600 million before the puck even drops. In 2011, Pegula guaranteed a cup by the end of this decade and we know how they're doing. Lemieux and the Penguins were going to KC and "everyone" knew it. The list goes on. Don't take what NHL owners say as automatic proof that doesn't need to be backed up.

They can't logistically sign 25 AHL players for their puck drop. Accept that. That's not happening. AHL teams average, and plan, to have more than 35 players rostered throughout the season. That's even more impossible. Accept that. It doesn't work from a hockey operations POV. Unless you have proof or an assertion that proves otherwise.

The 20-21 date was the NHL team begin playing as they originally wanted. They never mention about the AHL starting 20-21. And nothing says to date that they will start the NHL franchise with a shared AHL team. Nothing. And i pay attention to a lot of this stuff. AHL did say team #32 will be in the pacific division everything is set up for a 8th pacific division team. They aren't going to realign the league again. Everything NHL seattle said about where their team will be at is either Boise or in California. Oh and if they buy the ECHL Idaho steel heads and promote them to AHL team there's your team right there minus the Dallas controlled players.

 

[gstommylee]

Let's wait and see when the AHL team gets announced on what is going to happen.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The 20-21 date was the NHL team begin playing as they originally wanted. They never mention about the AHL starting 20-21. And nothing says to date that they will start the NHL franchise with a shared AHL team. Nothing. And i pay attention to a lot of this stuff. AHL did say team #32 will be in the pacific division everything is set up for a 8th pacific division team. They aren't going to realign the league again. Everything NHL seattle said about where their team will be at is either Boise or in California. Oh and if they buy the ECHL Idaho steel heads and promote them to AHL team there's your team right there minus the Dallas controlled players.

I'm not sure due to some horrible grammar in that first sentence if you think that the Seattle NHL team will start in 2020-21 or that's when they wanted to start. First, they're starting in 2021-22. I literally just mentioned it. The Seattle NHL organization said they wanted to start in 2020-21, but are starting in 2021-22, and I used that as part of my bigger point of "Don't take what team owners say they will do as facts, and use your own thoughts and common sense."

You're saying they're not going to have any AHL affiliation during their first season? That's what you're saying? If so, then that's an entirely unrealistic scenario, even more so than other ones you've mentioned. I'm not sure when the last time a NHL went without a minor league affiliation, it hasn't happened in a couple of decades. I'm not sure the NHL will allow them to be without an AHL affiliate.

As for your Boise notion, yes they've apparently been interested in Boise and Palm Springs. The Boise owner reportedly doesn't want to sell and has a history of rejecting being a subservient to higher level teams. A good portion of Boise's top players annually have come from the AHL Texas Stars going back to 2005, so they're out the door. Seattle will almost certainly clear house and bring in "their people" as many teams have done when they buy the franchise. Since you pay attention to a lot of minor league hockey stuff, you know where coaches and front office guys go, they usually bring their players with them.

So, in this case where Seattle buys the team from the guy who doesn't want to sell, and keep every major producer from the previous few years, they'll still need to sign at least 15 players to AHL contracts if they have any hope of not getting murdered each game. You do realize there's a sizeable difference in level of play between the AHL and the ECHL? This season, Idaho has had 42 players who've suited up this season, and I would maybe give 8 a contract, of which 4 belong to the Stars.

 

[gstommylee]

I'm not sure due to some horrible grammar in that first sentence if you think that the Seattle NHL team will start in 2020-21 or that's when they wanted to start. First, they're starting in 2021-22. I literally just mentioned it. The Seattle NHL organization said they wanted to start in 2020-21, but are starting in 2021-22, and I used that as part of my bigger point of "Don't take what team owners say they will do as facts, and use your own thoughts and common sense."

You're saying they're not going to have any AHL affiliation during their first season? That's what you're saying? If so, then that's an entirely unrealistic scenario, even more so than other ones you've mentioned. I'm not sure when the last time a NHL went without a minor league affiliation, it hasn't happened in a couple of decades. I'm not sure the NHL will allow them to be without an AHL affiliate.

As for your Boise notion, yes they've apparently been interested in Boise and Palm Springs. The Boise owner reportedly doesn't want to sell and has a history of rejecting being a subservient to higher level teams. A good portion of Boise's top players annually have come from the AHL Texas Stars going back to 2005, so they're out the door. Seattle will almost certainly clear house and bring in "their people" as many teams have done when they buy the franchise. Since you pay attention to a lot of minor league hockey stuff, you know where coaches and front office guys go, they usually bring their players with them.

So, in this case where Seattle buys the team from the guy who doesn't want to sell, and keep every major producer from the previous few years, they'll still need to sign at least 15 players to AHL contracts if they have any hope of not getting murdered each game. You do realize there's a sizeable difference in level of play between the AHL and the ECHL? This season, Idaho has had 42 players who've suited up this season, and I would maybe give 8 a contract, of which 4 belong to the Stars.

Again NOTHING has been said on what will actually happen. Seattle hasn't been saying much on what is the full plan with their AHL team. other than possible a June announcement and they looked at Boise and Palm springs Ca. Other than that nothing.

So far the AHL said the team will be in the pacific and what also has been said that Seattle will own it. You don't have the AHL alignment be what it is today if the #32 team isn't going to be in the pacific.

Can we wait and see when the team makes the darn announcement. Things will be clear then.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Again NOTHING has been said on what will actually happen. Seattle hasn't been saying much on what is the full plan with their AHL team. other than possible a June announcement and they looked at Boise and Palm springs Ca. Other than that nothing.

So far the AHL said the team will be in the pacific and what also has been said that Seattle will own it. You don't have the AHL alignment be what it is today if the #32 team isn't going to be in the pacific.

Can we wait and see when the team makes the darn announcement. Things will be clear then.

This entire thread is based off of speculation. The announcement for where they're going isn't going to happen for 2 years, unless they go with what their reported favorite in Palm Springs (or some other location with no facilities) and have to build a stadium and infrastructure from scratch.

Until then, we speculate and come up with somewhere near realistic scenarios. Not that they won't have an AHL affiliate their first season, which it turns out is a league requirement.

 

[gstommylee]

This entire thread is based off of speculation. The announcement for where they're going isn't going to happen for 2 years, unless they go with what their reported favorite in Palm Springs (or some other location with no facilities) and have to build a stadium and infrastructure from scratch.

Until then, we speculate and come up with somewhere near realistic scenarios. Not that they won't have an AHL affiliate their first season, which it turns out is a league requirement.

Last I heard, they'll make some sort of comment (possible announcement) on the AHL in June cause if they have to upgrade or build an arena for the team. Its going to take up to 2 years for that. They aren't going to wait 2 years then have the announcement which then you really delaying start by additional 2 years or so.

 

[tank44]

Last I heard, they'll make some sort of comment (possible announcement) on the AHL in June cause if they have to upgrade or build an arena for the team. Its going to take up to 2 years for that. They aren't going to wait 2 years then have the announcement which then you really delaying start by additional 2 years or so.

If they go to a new market (Palm Springs or Tacoma) that needs arena investment, then a sooner announcement makes sense. But if they're taking over a WHL or ECHL city, is makes the current team a lame duck until the AHL team arrives. If they are going to share or take over a current AHL team, then the status quo seems to be to wait on any announcement there too. Vancouver extended their AHL lease for 3-6 years in Utica. It just seems they are waiting for Seattle and the two of them would move their AHL teams the NW together.

Also - per a note you noted earlier about the AHL not wanting to realign their divisions - they literally do that every year. Teams like Charlotte and San Antonio get shifted divisions/conferences regularly.

 

[BattleBorn]

Realignment isn't an issue in the AHL since they do it all the time. What is an issue, IMO, is locating you franchise in an area they requires charter flights to all of your away games as well as all your call ups.

From a visiting team perspective, having another AHL location near your city would be optimal as well. If Vancouver's got a long term plan to move their AHL franchise to the Pacific Northwest, it would make sense to do it at the same time as Seattle. It wouldn't really make Seattle or Vancouver's travel much easier except for games against each other, but it would make an easily busable two/three game road trip between the two cities for teams coming in to play them. For example, fly into Bellingham or Everett and play the Seattle team, take a bus to Langley or wherever, then fly home from Vancouver.

The AHL Pacific schedule is division heavy due to travel cost considerations, if it's division heavy and also involves a lot of long intra-division play trips, it's going to cause an issue unless they can try to overcome that by knocking out multiple games in a long-haul travel situation.

 

[gstommylee]

If they go to a new market (Palm Springs or Tacoma) that needs arena investment, then a sooner announcement makes sense. But if they're taking over a WHL or ECHL city, is makes the current team a lame duck until the AHL team arrives. If they are going to share or take over a current AHL team, then the status quo seems to be to wait on any announcement there too. Vancouver extended their AHL lease for 3-6 years in Utica. It just seems they are waiting for Seattle and the two of them would move their AHL teams the NW together.

Also - per a note you noted earlier about the AHL not wanting to realign their divisions - they literally do that every year. Teams like Charlotte and San Antonio get shifted divisions/conferences regularly.

Washington state and Oregon already been ruled out for the AHL team.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Do you think Spokane be considered for AHL? Would they ditch WHL for Seattle's AHL affiliate? Or keep both?

I doubt it for now, but asking because Spokane is the largest city in Washington outside Seattle, questionable if the Thunderbirds/Silvertips stay after the NHL comes to Seattle, but do think Wenatchee gets WHL in the future. From one of them, but if Spokane+Thunderbirds/Silvertips get involved it'll be interesting how that'd look.

 

[gstommylee]

Do you think Spokane be considered for AHL? Would they ditch WHL for Seattle's AHL affiliate? Or keep both?

I doubt it for now, but asking because Spokane is the largest city in Washington outside Seattle, questionable if the Thunderbirds/Silvertips stay after the NHL comes to Seattle, but do think Wenatchee gets WHL in the future. From one of them, but if Spokane+Thunderbirds/Silvertips get involved it'll be interesting how that'd look.

The team already said they don't want to distribute any of the WHL teams so Washington and oregon are ruled out.

 

[PCSPounder]

Let's go to two practical matters here.

IF they announce in June, and announce Palm Springs without having an arena agreement in place (and there is NO noise about this, and if it's happening, there HAS to be noise), you may as well prepare the egg and the face it will land on.

Similarly, if you announce Boise in June without having purchased the Steelheads, that will be fun. There would be noise about that, too- and I suspect given Idaho's been to the Kelly Cup playoffs 21 straight years- there would be some anger involved from the fans you need to absorb AHL realities.

Something's got to give. Practically speaking, June is unrealistic. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to those who say AHL being spun up at the same time as the Sockrakeneyes is likely a non-starter, though I'd argue that would raise eyebrows in Seattle.

I also think the "no Oregon or Washington" thing will be revisited... or at least ought to be. In all likelihood, there's going to be a ruling on the CHL class action that will make a mess of things. I'm not sure I'd expect the Portland Winterhawks to survive that mess.

 

[Brodie]

Is Sacramento an option?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Is Sacramento an option?

San Jose was linked to it a year or two back but seem happy sharing facilities with the parent club. Not sure Golden 1 Center owners are interested in a team or even have ice making capabilities. Plus, Kings might not be keen to share their pick of the best home dates.

 

[PCSPounder]

San Jose was linked to it a year or two back but seem happy sharing facilities with the parent club. Not sure Golden 1 Center owners are interested in a team or even have ice making capabilities. Plus, Kings might not be keen to share their pick of the best home dates.

It's not aligned for hockey... and after the whole Barclays Center issue, we should never talk of this again.

The Sacramento State athletic director had proposed replacing the "gym" where their basketball team plays with a 5,000-seat arena with hockey capability. He said that 2-3 years ago when arriving on the job and really hasn't spoken of it since. Biggest problem: it would be 40% more arena than Sac State should build, never mind the scheduling problems with women's basketball and the like.

 

[gstommylee]

Let's go to two practical matters here.

IF they announce in June, and announce Palm Springs without having an arena agreement in place (and there is NO noise about this, and if it's happening, there HAS to be noise), you may as well prepare the egg and the face it will land on.

Similarly, if you announce Boise in June without having purchased the Steelheads, that will be fun. There would be noise about that, too- and I suspect given Idaho's been to the Kelly Cup playoffs 21 straight years- there would be some anger involved from the fans you need to absorb AHL realities.

Something's got to give. Practically speaking, June is unrealistic. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to those who say AHL being spun up at the same time as the Sockrakeneyes is likely a non-starter, though I'd argue that would raise eyebrows in Seattle.

I also think the "no Oregon or Washington" thing will be revisited... or at least ought to be. In all likelihood, there's going to be a ruling on the CHL class action that will make a mess of things. I'm not sure I'd expect the Portland Winterhawks to survive that mess.

They already said its not going to happen. They don't want to force any current teams out. There is no revisiting needed.

What's not to say something is already being worked on for an arena for Palm Springs or an agreement with Idaho.

Remember OVG was working on Key arena idea way before we even knew about it and they got it through Seattle process pretty quickly given Seattle has been known to take their time on just about anything. And note this is a AHL arena. it doesn't need to be a very very large arena.

 

[PCSPounder]

They already said its not going to happen. They don't want to force any current teams out. There is no revisiting needed.

What's not to say something is already being worked on for an arena for Palm Springs or an agreement with Idaho.

Remember OVG was working on Key arena idea way before we even knew about it and they got it through Seattle process pretty quickly given Seattle has been known to take their time on just about anything. And note this is a AHL arena. it doesn't need to be a very very large arena.

Someone else has given you the proper lecture on what is said versus what eventually happens. Your characterization of OVG's secretness with the city regarding Seattle Center isn't "that" clean. It was fast be Seattle process standards, but there still was plenty of process.

Boise's arena took more than 18 months to complete, and it would be a bit on the small side for the AHL. Of course, it was built with an adjoining hotel and sports bar (or vice versa... kind of an inside joke in Boise). That was privately funded and still required all the permits, etc. The point being made is that announcing this in June... eh, not so keen.

 

[SoldiersOfFilth]

I think that if the team goes with Sockeyes, the best move would be to buy the Steelheads and promote them to AHL. Can use similar branding to the parent team, like the P-Bruins, Barracuda, Texas Stars, and others.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I think that if the team goes with Sockeyes, the best move would be to buy the Steelheads and promote them to AHL. Can use similar branding to the parent team, like the P-Bruins, Barracuda, Texas Stars, and others.

EXCEPT there's no franchise to be bought, it has to be already established see Colorado and the Eagles over the St.Louis/VGK/transaction

 

[PCSPounder]

EXCEPT there's no franchise to be bought, it has to be already established see Colorado and the Eagles over the St.Louis/VGK/transaction

The AHL will happily bow to the NHL for whatever arrangement is decided.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The AHL will happily bow to the NHL for whatever arrangement is decided.

disagree, PCS, HOW MANY YEARS were on the Colorado PDC with San Antonio prior to the agreement (3) add the decision by St. Louis to strictly be an affiliate and not an outright owner/affiliate once Kansas City/Independence was blocked by the Mavericks.....

the AHL doesn't capitulate to any arrangement

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

disagree, PCS, HOW MANY YEARS were on the Colorado PDC with San Antonio prior to the agreement (3) add the decision by St. Louis to strictly be an affiliate and not an outright owner/affiliate once Kansas City/Independence was blocked by the Mavericks.....

the AHL doesn't capitulate to any arrangement

You do realize that in 2015-16 the AHL allowed 7 relocations and 4 team affiliations at the drop of a hat because those NHL teams make the big decisions. The AHL capitulates to almost whatever the NHL wants. St. Louis wanted their affiliate in Indianapolis or KC. There isn't a Blues affiliate there now not because "the AHL does not capitulate to any arrangement," it's because the independent minded ECHL owners in those two markets told St. Louis to screw off, it had nothing to do with the AHL. The Kings, Oilers, and Flames all in the same summer said "we're going to swap the leagues of our two affiliates" (because they all owned their AHL and ECHL teams) and the AHL had nothing they could do about it. The AHL lives to serve the NHL.

 

[monkeywrench]

Someone else has given you the proper lecture on what is said versus what eventually happens. Your characterization of OVG's secretness with the city regarding Seattle Center isn't "that" clean. It was fast be Seattle process standards, but there still was plenty of process.

Boise's arena took more than 18 months to complete, and it would be a bit on the small side for the AHL. Of course, it was built with an adjoining hotel and sports bar (or vice versa... kind of an inside joke in Boise). That was privately funded and still required all the permits, etc. The point being made is that announcing this in June... eh, not so keen.

Let's go to two practical matters here.

IF they announce in June, and announce Palm Springs without having an arena agreement in place (and there is NO noise about this, and if it's happening, there HAS to be noise), you may as well prepare the egg and the face it will land on.

Similarly, if you announce Boise in June without having purchased the Steelheads, that will be fun. There would be noise about that, too- and I suspect given Idaho's been to the Kelly Cup playoffs 21 straight years- there would be some anger involved from the fans you need to absorb AHL realities.

Something's got to give. Practically speaking, June is unrealistic. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to those who say AHL being spun up at the same time as the Sockrakeneyes is likely a non-starter, though I'd argue that would raise eyebrows in Seattle.

I also think the "no Oregon or Washington" thing will be revisited... or at least ought to be. In all likelihood, there's going to be a ruling on the CHL class action that will make a mess of things. I'm not sure I'd expect the Portland Winterhawks to survive that mess.

There is a proposed 12,000 seat indoor stadium on the north side of the I-10 just off of Cook ST on Varner RD that may be able to converted for the AHL team.

 

[Agalloch]

Idaho?