After Canada who is the top hockey nation?

[Henri M]

Tournaments with single games is one thing but the US has too deep of a roster and would easily beat the Finns in a 7 game series, unless a goaltender stood on his head and "stole" a series.

Your personal conjectures do not impress me, neither should it impress anyone with more than half a brain.

If your argument would hold true for a "best of 7 series", it also should hold true for a large enough sample size, e.g. several top tournaments (and if we are talking about depth, we might want to include the WC in this as well).

Now, based on the historic results, also known as empirical evidence, I do not see much of a reason to assume that the usa would come out better than Finland.

 

[wintersej]

Your personal conjectures do not impress me, neither should it impress anyone with more than half a brain.

If your argument would hold true for a "best of 7 series", it also should hold true for a large enough sample size, e.g. several top tournaments (and if we are talking about depth, we might want to include the WC in this as well).

Now, based on the historic results, also known as empirical evidence, I do not see much of a reason to assume that the usa would come out better than Finland.

Depends on if the game is played on international or NHL sized ice.

 

[YesCubed]

USA would do better if they stop bringing players like Dustin Brown and Brooks Orpik to tournaments

Year after year we get these warnings of the impending take over of hockey by the big and bad U.S but tournament after tournament they usually finish weak. They get knocked out by the Finns early in the Olympics while we dominate Sweden on our way to gold. In the WC we smash every single team we play while the U.S got their bronze. Good for them, they finally medalled

Did you even watch either tournament? The USA finished 4th in the '14 Olympics (aka not getting "knocked out early"). The Canada WC gold was their first medal in the World Championships since 2009 meanwhile the USA "finally medalled" after a shocking 2 years.

Do some research before you blurt out garbage like this.

 

[JackSlater]

Based on what? Names?

Out of how many top level competitions between these two countries have each of them won? You can find your answer there.

Based on the best players all playing together in the same league, and it being easily observable that USA has better players.

USA has won one top level competition, Finland has won none. So? In the last decade Finland was better at the 2006 Olympics, USA was better at the 2010 Olympics, and then USA was better again in 2014. Yes, in spite of Finland winning the consolation game.

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

Sweden
Russia
Finland/Usa

 

[fmrdh]

Can
swe/usa
rus
fin
cze
sui / svk
ger / kaz / lat / bel

 

[xxxx]

Based on what? Names?

Out of how many top level competitions between these two countries have each of them won? You can find your answer there.

Based on my opinion which is based on the facts that the US has better players in offence and defence, players like Kane, Johnson, or Pacioretty that Finland can dream about now, and depth that is unquestionable (talking about the best team's depth). One bronze-medal game doesn't change anything. Also previous results from even only 5 years back don't matter. And of course games from any WHC don't matter at all, because no team was playing with their best.

As I said, America has better forwards, better defensemen, and also better depth. They are closer to Canada than to Finland. And I think no matter the results at any stage, you can say Canada would win, or at least be a huge favorite against Finland in a best-of-seven series. US wouldn't be that huge favorite, but definitely still quite a big favourite.

 

[Henri M]

Based on the best players all playing together in the same league, and it being easily observable that USA has better players.

USA has won one top level competition, Finland has won none. So? In the last decade Finland was better at the 2006 Olympics, USA was better at the 2010 Olympics, and then USA was better again in 2014. Yes, in spite of Finland winning the consolation game.

What are you going on about? Finland was better at the 2014 olympics in case you did not know. They crushed the USA in the bronze game at 2014.

You would be able to make the claim that the players are better for every tournament, but when the results do not show this, then your point is moot.

 

[JackSlater]

What are you going on about? Finland was better at the 2014 olympics in case you did not know. They crushed the USA in the bronze game at 2014.

You would be able to make the claim that the players are better for every tournament, but when the results do not show this, then your point is moot.

USA was a better team than Finland. USA lost to Canada and then lost a game they obviously didn't care that about to Finland, who then proceeded to celebrate the win pretty much more than Canada did when they won gold. I know that European fans cannot comprehend a team not caring about winning bronze at the Olympics, but that's the situation for Canada and USA.

The current generation of Finnish and American players have played in two best on best competitions, totaling fewer than 15 games total. That's obviously a ridiculously small sample size. They've also played hundreds of NHL games over that span. It's obvious which is a better method to judge the players.

 

[Yakushev72]

USA was a better team than Finland. USA lost to Canada and then lost a game they obviously didn't care that about to Finland, who then proceeded to celebrate the win pretty much more than Canada did when they won gold. I know that European fans cannot comprehend a team not caring about winning bronze at the Olympics, but that's the situation for Canada and USA.

The current generation of Finnish and American players have played in two best on best competitions, totaling fewer than 15 games total. That's obviously a ridiculously small sample size. They've also played hundreds of NHL games over that span. It's obvious which is a better method to judge the players.

They would be awarded an Olympic medal if they won the game, and zero/nothing if they lost, and they didn't care about the game? That is not plausible or credible. The US got blown off the ice that day by Finland, and they looked embarrassed when they left.

Anyone who watched the game would agree that the USA was very lucky to get by Russia in the 13th round of a Shootout. The USA was the only team in the Olympics that Russia actually outplayed. You can argue about which team had more talent here and there, but the outcome on the ice when they played was clear cut and decisive.

 

[JackSlater]

They would be awarded an Olympic medal if they won the game, and zero/nothing if they lost, and they didn't care about the game? That is not plausible or credible. The US got blown off the ice that day by Finland, and they looked embarrassed when they left.

I appreciate you proving exactly what I said. Canadians grow up knowing that a bronze medal (or silver) at the Olympics is not acceptable in hockey, for Canada at least. American fans claim that the same kind of idea exists for them. Not all nations are going to value a bronze medal the same way.

Anyone who watched the game would agree that the USA was very lucky to get by Russia in the 13th round of a Shootout. The USA was the only team in the Olympics that Russia actually outplayed. You can argue about which team had more talent here and there, but the outcome on the ice when they played was clear cut and decisive.

I agree with you that Russia outplayed USA. Just as Finland looked better against Russia than USA did, USA looked better against Canada than Finland did. Finland played incredibly scared, completely falling back into a defensive shell even when trailing late in the game, never even trying to win. On the whole I think USA looked better. A fair number of fans/media thought that USA looked like the best team heading into the semi-finals.

 

[QnebO]

after canada who is the top hockey nation?

Finland!!

 

[Jablkon]

USA was a better team than Finland. USA lost to Canada and then lost a game they obviously didn't care that about to Finland, who then proceeded to celebrate the win pretty much more than Canada did when they won gold. I know that European fans cannot comprehend a team not caring about winning bronze at the Olympics, but that's the situation for Canada and USA.

The current generation of Finnish and American players have played in two best on best competitions, totaling fewer than 15 games total. That's obviously a ridiculously small sample size. They've also played hundreds of NHL games over that span. It's obvious which is a better method to judge the players.

That attitude is pretty much justified and reasonable considering quality and history of canadian hockey. Not that much for the team which won smth. in 1980 and 1996 imo. They should come big in Sochi accordnig to all predictions. However it was obvious that apart of great system which is built from youth level, they simply dont have that "winning x factor" and decisive players.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

I believe that apart from Canada, any team that plays in the bronze medal game in olympics are doing their best to win it. Us fans can see it differently and to me as a finn bronze medal is nothing compared to winning the gold medal. But I can pretty realisticly claim that the players in both teams (Finland, Sweden, Russia, USA, Czech) want to win the medal equally much.

 

[JackSlater]

I believe that apart from Canada, any team that plays in the bronze medal game in olympics are doing their best to win it. Us fans can see it differently and to me as a finn bronze medal is nothing compared to winning the gold medal. But I can pretty realisticly claim that the players in both teams (Finland, Sweden, Russia, USA, Czech) want to win the medal equally much.

It's possible I guess. I don't think it's part of American sporting culture to really embrace a bronze though, and based on what fans were saying before that game they didn't seem to really care all that much. I can't imagine the American players celebrating the bronze like the Finnish players did. I'm not American though. For Canada it's a bit different... bronze is a commendable achievement, outside of hockey.

 

[Yakushev72]

I appreciate you proving exactly what I said. Canadians grow up knowing that a bronze medal (or silver) at the Olympics is not acceptable in hockey, for Canada at least. American fans claim that the same kind of idea exists for them. Not all nations are going to value a bronze medal the same way.



I agree with you that Russia outplayed USA. Just as Finland looked better against Russia than USA did, USA looked better against Canada than Finland did. Finland played incredibly scared, completely falling back into a defensive shell even when trailing late in the game, never even trying to win. On the whole I think USA looked better. A fair number of fans/media thought that USA looked like the best team heading into the semi-finals.

Now you're focusing on perceptions, perceptions, perceptions - as in "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder." Your point is just completely implausible and not credible. Maybe Canadians always expect to be No. 1, but in the end, they would prefer to be on the medal stand than listed among the "also rans."

 

[JackSlater]

Now you're focusing on perceptions, perceptions, perceptions - as in "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder." Your point is just completely implausible and not credible. Maybe Canadians always expect to be No. 1, but in the end, they would prefer to be on the medal stand than listed among the "also rans."

Being in the third place position is being an also ran. Even Wayne Gretzky, not one to make excuses, said that he regretted that he and the 1998 Olympic team didn't care much about the 1998 bronze medal game at the time. You can assume all you like that Canadians care about winning bronze in hockey, but it won't make it true for the vast majority. I am also assuming, of course, that Americans have a similar mindset... could be wrong though.

 

[xxxx]

in terms of players, I don't really know. Some 3rd place games looked like they actually cared ('12 World Juniors in Calgary), and some that they definitely didn't ('06 WHC, I remember it was a very nervous game). Can't really speak for players how much they feel motivated to win "at least" bronze. But it's quite obvious that in every mind of a canadian player, there's just one goal and that is the gold medal. And failing to reach that goal is quite a disaster (of course it's just sport, but still a sport disaster), so the disappointing is so big that playing some game for the 3rd place seems meaningless. You may say every top nation wants to win the gold, what's the difference. I can't explain it, but in Canada, winning the gold is just...you were simply born to do it

 

[Lepardi]

Finland played incredibly scared, completely falling back into a defensive shell even when trailing late in the game, never even trying to win.

Trailing late in the game?

http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/388/IHM400B06_74_4_0.pdf

Do you think Finland should have played a more open style after that Doughty goal, or what do you mean? I think falling back was the wisest thing for Finland to do, cause the difference in talent level is so humongous. Had they not been in a "defensive shell", Canada probably would have taken 3 points out of that game.

 

[Get North]

If you're not first, you're last.

 

[Jablkon]

If you're not first, you're last.

So Canada won last WHC just because of being terribly anxious not to end up on Slovenia level?

 

[Urbanskog]

For a team that has not achieved a lot internationally recently, the way Americans belittle any medal other than the golden one is certainly flabbergasting.

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

Last 35 years the Americans have won 7 medals in Men's IIHF events (Olympics, Worlds). For them to say an Olympic Bronze is meaningless is laughable. They haven't accomplished anything in International Hockey compared to a Canada, they can't think like winners because they're not. That's pure American ''superiority'' kicking in.

 

[JackSlater]

Trailing late in the game?

http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/388/IHM400B06_74_4_0.pdf

Do you think Finland should have played a more open style after that Doughty goal, or what do you mean? I think falling back was the wisest thing for Finland to do, cause the difference in talent level is so humongous. Had they not been in a "defensive shell", Canada probably would have taken 3 points out of that game.

Whoops, conflated the last few minutes of the Latvia game. In that game Finland sat back and just absorbed pressure without really counter attacking or attempting to generate offence. It was bizarre to see. I understand why they did it, but USA was clearly much better against Canada. Yes, just like Finland was better against Russia.

 

[Canuckistani]

Last 35 years the Americans have won 7 medals in Men's IIHF events (Olympics, Worlds). For them to say an Olympic Bronze is meaningless is laughable. They haven't accomplished anything in International Hockey compared to a Canada, they can't think like winners because they're not. That's pure American ''superiority'' kicking in.

The 1996 World Cup changed their thinking.

Ever since that victory USA Hockey seems to have adopted a gold-or-nothing view, deserved or not.