Player Discussion Adam Fox

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I think you are highly overcomplicating the stats here. The first stat is literally points at 5v5 on a per minute basis. There's not some complex mathematical formula here. The second stat is literally just shot attempts for and against. Again, it's counting things that happened on the ice. There's no complex formula. If you want to argue xG is more of a black box with unknown inputs and weightings I won't disagree with you there but that's not the only stat that he's putting up great results in.

I think the burden of proof is the other direction here. Fox has put up great numbers for years. He still is putting up great numbers. If you think his play is worse, why, because the results have not changed? If his skating is worse then why have the results not reflected that? Leaguewide scoring is down this year so it's not that everyone is scoring more.
Lets take my opinion out of this. This was from Vince's column the other day.

Fox was among the primary culprits, getting beat in countless board battles and foot races while struggling to create any offensive push.

Now I do give Fox a pass because I don't think he is playing this season at 100% but I think Fox would be the first to admit this hasn't been one of his better seasons. I do think he could bounce back and his high assist numbers in a down season are noteworthy. We as fans need to realize players are not robots. Injuries do matter. It sucks playing at less than 100% because your mind knows what you should be doing but the body response isn't quite there. Its frustrating.
 
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Lets take my opinion out of this. This was from Vince's column the other day.



Now I do give Fox a pass because I don't think he is playing this season at 100% but I think Fox would be the first to admit this hasn't been one of his better seasons. I do think he could bounce back and his high assist numbers in a down season are noteworthy. We as fans need to realize players are not robots. Injuries do matter. It sucks playing at less than 100% because your mind knows what you should be doing but the body response isn't quite there. Its frustrating.

All I want to know is why it's not reflected in the measured results.
 
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All I want to know is why it's not reflected in the measured results.
The measured results are the team stinks and he's supposed to be one of their best, if not the best player. I get his advanced stats are good but sometimes advanced stats don't manifest in wins and that's what these guys are ultimately paid to do. He was a huge factor in two of Toronto's four goals last night.
 
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The measured results are the team stinks and he's supposed to be one of their best, if not the best player. I get his advanced stats are good but sometimes advanced stats don't manifest in wins and that's what these guys are ultimately paid to do. He was a huge factor in two of Toronto's four goals last night.

Points and goals are advanced?

As I said previously maybe your stats do not give you a complete picture.

Or is it possible that the things that you think are issues actually aren't? They are just noticeable but don't have any actual impact? Maybe a slight reduction in skating speed or agility doesn't actually make a difference? Maybe he hasn't been as good at one on one battles so he's purposely not fully exerting himself there and saving energy for other things so the net result is no change?

I don't know what the complete picture means. If the point of the game is to outscore your opponent, and he is doing that by a significant margin, why does it matter how he looks when doing it?
 
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And how do you know that? There is a direct connection between his knee injury and his deteriorating play. These guys are professional athletes, their body is their life, their livelihood, and their pay. Sure, there are some guys you might say this about but I never consider Fox to be among them. These are not the days, long ago, when players might have rarely hit the gym or had all the trainers, strength trainers, personal trainers, therapists, nutritionists, etc., that teams and players have access to today. The Rangers have more staff than they have players. Fox is limited by his physical makeup, his frame, his genetics, from ever being a physical beast, the same with almost all smaller D (Z. Jones is another but w/o Fox's skills). I put "out of condition" with "country club atmosphere" together as something frustrated fans, in all sports, fall back on, whenever a team or individual players underperforms. If anything, when Fox was rehabbing his knee last summer, he might have concentrated on upper body strength. None of us knows, and that includes me, what is going on inside of players' heads, or privy to conversations between players and support staff or coaches. Speculate is what we do. We simply do not know the nature of Fox's knee issues or how much time he puts into the gym.
Its easy to get lazy once you've secured the large contract. Seems to be a theme with this team.
 
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Points and goals are advanced?



Or is it possible that the things that you think are issues actually aren't? They are just noticeable but don't have any actual impact? Maybe a slight reduction in skating speed or agility doesn't actually make a difference? Maybe he hasn't been as good at one on one battles so he's purposely not fully exerting himself there and saving energy for other things so the net result is no change?

I don't know what the complete picture means. If the point of the game is to outscore your opponent, and he is doing that by a significant margin, why does it matter how he looks when doing it?
He's got 3 ES goals this season. For an offensive defenseman who's been shit defensively all season long, that's not enough. Especially for a #1 D. I'm not in the trade him camp but how can you look at the year he's had and be satisfied?
 
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Its easy to get lazy once you've secured the large contract. Seems to be a theme with this team.
I don't believe, in general, that is true. It's an easy shibboleth to fall back on. It wasn't the case with Zib (it is to be expected that the last years of long contracts will not be productive due to aging, not less effort), or CK, or even Panarin. I don't think that was the case with Fox; he was fine until his apparent knee injury. It might be the case with Laf; the connection between the contract and his decreased production is evident. So, I reject your argument that it is a theme with the Rangers. Easy to pick out individual cases (I can't say that I am not incredibly disappointed and upset with Laf because I am) but as a blanket statement, nope.
 
I really respected my dad. He was a great guy and a huge sports fan. He told me one thing that I think both Fox bashers and supporters should keep in mind. "Never judge a guy in his first season coming off an injury".

He also said "Good pitching beats good hitting. The Yanks don't have a chance". That was back in 1985 or 1986. Wish I could hear him say it again. :)
 
He's got 3 ES goals this season. For an offensive defenseman who's been shit defensively all season long, that's not enough. Especially for a #1 D. I'm not in the trade him camp but how can you look at the year he's had and be satisfied?

Why does it make a difference if he's the one whose scoring the goals or if he's the one setting up the goals? He's been on the ice for 3.1 goals/60 this year which is the highest since his rookie year so it's not like him not scoring on his own has caused the team not to score with him on the ice. And yes, he has also been on the ice for the most goals against of his career but the net effect isn't much different since he's also scored more.
 
On a good team, hat missed pass by Fox on Toronto's 4th goal shouldn't even be that much of a problem. It is a huge problem for the Rangers, whose forwards don't play any defense. Kreider's coverage on Knies was embarrassing. Had he stayed with him, it's a blocked shot or deflected into the corner. The Rangers forwards are lazy. Torts would kill these guys.

The McMann goal at the end of the first was far more egregious. KAM loses his board battle then doesn't keep up with McMann on his way to the net. KAM is directly responsible for that goal. He's lost battles then failed to cover the front of the net on multiple goals against this season. KAM needs to go.
 
The proper take on Fox is he's a very good player who's been mediocre for the past ~Calendar year+, with injuries playing a factor, and the team going in the shitter too.

Saying he's a bad defenseman is lunacy. While not nearly as crazy but still dumb is using analytics to say he's been great this year and everything is fine, yadda yadda.

Well see how he fairs going forward with a long offseason. He'll really need to work on skating/fitness/shooting in offseason to get it back to the point where it's not as big a weakness as it is right now. Because right now he can't skate or shoot.

He's not part of the rotten crew in 93, 20, 16, 10 etc. you don't trade him for the hell of it. .
 
I don't believe, in general, that is true. It's an easy shibboleth to fall back on. It wasn't the case with Zib (it is to be expected that the last years of long contracts will not be productive due to aging, not less effort), or CK, or even Panarin. I don't think that was the case with Fox; he was fine until his apparent knee injury. It might be the case with Laf; the connection between the contract and his decreased production is evident. So, I reject your argument that it is a theme with the Rangers. Easy to pick out individual cases (I can't say that I am not incredibly disappointed and upset with Laf because I am) but as a blanket statement, nope.
Zib is in Year 3 of an 8 year deal and he already had a down year last year so it 100% applies to Zib. CK has been a one-dimensional (albeit very good at it) player for a number of years. He hasn't driven offense in years and lives off deflections and the occasional rush chance (largely on the PK). Panarin is Panarin, elite offensively and a major liability on defense. I think Laf and many of the younger players are a product of the environment. Why work hard as a young player when the vets are dogging it on a nightly basis while young players are stapled to the 3rd and 4th lines regardless of outcomes. While all teams miss on draft picks, I dont think I've seen a team completely whiff on 4 top 10 picks over a 3 year period with 2 of those picks being 1st and 2nd overall picks.

With all this what I'm trying to say is the Rangers have a significant culture problem with entited veterans they are tied into for many years.
 
I mean… I’ve said it before, but I don’t think it’s really about Fox at this point. The team like really legitimately and genuinely needs to be completely dismantled and Fox may have already played his best hockey, but almost certainly won’t still be playing his best hockey when this mess of a team is actually ready to compete again… so it isn’t really so much about what he’s accomplished and whether he is/isn’t elite so much as it’s a matter of what value he is to a team that’s going nowhere. Perrault and Cuylle being your best players under 25 is pretttttty abysmal. Kreider and Zib aren’t bringing back anything worthwhile. What would get us young assets to start a rebuild? I know. We won’t ever see a proper rebuild in NYC, and I know not all fans agree about needing one… but if you can get over whether or not you agree (not you personally) with the idea of trading Fox and instead look at it as whether or not you can see the merit in believing we need a full tear down rebuild (which even if it isn’t your preferred route, I imagine most can see as a 50/50 proposition) than it shouldn’t be too difficult to fathom why moving Fox becomes a discussion for some.
If you want to include Fox in just nuking the team because that's the timeline you're working on, I don't think that's an unfair take.

I think the unfair takes, which many are responding to when they post things like that, are people taking this guy who was never Hughes or Makar; and he wasn't Hughes or Makar when he was the best defensemen on the planet -which he was a couple of times- and now that the team is bad and people are in a pissy mood, they wanna suddenly be irate that the guy has flaws he always had.

And that's what it is. It's shit spewing rage posting. Adam Fox is 90% of the posts for the worst offenders. People are tired of it.

I think a lot of teams could use this guy's unique set of skills. For a team that's bad at pretty much everything, you're gonna see the areas where he comes up short. I got news for people, Quinn Hughes plays for a team that's just as big of a mess, and Cale Makar, God bless him, hasn't played a stretch of hockey in his pro career without being attached to a faster Mark Messier. No single player is going to solve deep problems in the institution.

Maybe that's reason to trade him! All I'm saying is approaching that discussion in good faith is not the same as the trolling that's been going on.
 
If you want to include Fox in just nuking the team because that's the timeline you're working on, I don't think that's an unfair take.

I think the unfair takes, which many are responding to when they post things like that, are people taking this guy who was never Hughes or Makar; and he wasn't Hughes or Makar when he was the best defensemen on the planet -which he was a couple of times- and now that the team is bad and people are in a pissy mood, they wanna suddenly be irate that the guy has flaws he always had.

And that's what it is. It's shit spewing rage posting. Adam Fox is 90% of the posts for the worst offenders. People are tired of it.

I think a lot of teams could use this guy's unique set of skills. For a team that's bad at pretty much everything, you're gonna see the areas where he comes up short. I got news for people, Quinn Hughes plays for a team that's just as big of a mess, and Cale Makar, God bless him, hasn't played a stretch of hockey in his pro career without being attached to a faster Mark Messier. No single player is going to solve deep problems in the institution.

Maybe that's reason to trade him! All I'm saying is approaching that discussion in good faith is not the same as the trolling that's been going on.

Absolutely man. I just think that the team needs to be nuked. It isn’t specifically Fox or Panarin or him or her. It’s just… damn this team sucks.
 
You say it's there" yet your third paragraph stated "I'm not going to start a deep dive to determine the context"

So, it's not there.

I asked you why Fox has career best numbers in many basic categories if his play is so much worse and all you responded with was one paragraph about Connor McDavid, one paragraph about Quinn Hughes (yes, I mentioned them in my post responding to your previous comment), and one paragraph saying you're not going to determine the context.

You want to say he's getting more zone starts this year? That is true. But are you seriously going to tell me ONE additional offensive zone faceoff per game from this year compared to last year is the reason?

You also specifically mention five things except it's really just being wordy and repetitive to make it look like you're mentioning a lot of things. "Deployment" and "Zone Starts" are essentially the same thing. "Matchups", "Strength of opponents on ice", and "Miller/Borgen getting harder assignments" are the same thing.
Run in circles and you answers your own question. I brought up the lack of context in the surface numbers, and the fact that I am not going to do the deep dive to get that context for you w those numbers. I'm not sure what is so confusing nor do I care at this point...
 
I really respected my dad. He was a great guy and a huge sports fan. He told me one thing that I think both Fox bashers and supporters should keep in mind. "Never judge a guy in his first season coming off an injury".

He also said "Good pitching beats good hitting. The Yanks don't have a chance". That was back in 1985 or 1986. Wish I could hear him say it again. :)
My dad has been hospitalized since last May . Covid-pneumonia twice and a few bladder infections along the way along with prostate cancer . He is 88 . He did travel 1000 miles to see his Sens play before he got covid.....so I'm glad he got that treat . Anyways.....I visit him everyday and we talk some hockey . LOL....one thing he used to preach was never chase the defender behind the net....you can't win that race !
 
My dad has been hospitalized since last May . Covid-pneumonia twice and a few bladder infections along the way along with prostate cancer . He is 88 . He did travel 1000 miles to see his Sens play before he got covid.....so I'm glad he got that treat . Anyways.....I visit him everyday and we talk some hockey . LOL....one thing he used to preach was never chase the defender behind the net....you can't win that race !

That's rough ... wishing the very best for you and your dad
 
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My dad has been hospitalized since last May . Covid-pneumonia twice and a few bladder infections along the way along with prostate cancer . He is 88 . He did travel 1000 miles to see his Sens play before he got covid.....so I'm glad he got that treat . Anyways.....I visit him everyday and we talk some hockey . LOL....one thing he used to preach was never chase the defender behind the net....you can't win that race !
Really sorry to hear your dad has health issues. Hope he gets better soon. I'm glad you visit him often. I would give so much to visit with my dad. Please make sure you tell him how you feel about him. Sometimes me and my dad were too macho for emotional words and I regret that.
 
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Run in circles and you answers your own question. I brought up the lack of context in the surface numbers, and the fact that I am not going to do the deep dive to get that context for you w those numbers. I'm not sure what is so confusing nor do I care at this point...

Ok. This has been a good conversation to remind me why I haven't interacted with you in at least five years, likely longer. Because it's like talking to a brick wall. I was wondering if I was the problem but then I saw that you've had similar issues with two other posters in the last two days so I've concluded that the problem is actually your attitude as I thought. Thank you for helping refresh my memory.
 
Ok. This has been a good conversation to remind me why I haven't interacted with you in at least five years, likely longer. Because it's like talking to a brick wall. I was wondering if I was the problem but then I saw that you've had similar issues with two other posters in the last two days so I've concluded that the problem is actually your attitude as I thought. Thank you for helping refresh my memory.
Just like many of your other posts, what you put in this post is inaccurate. I made a comment during the summer that you act super arrogant to people that disagree with you and try to belittle them and then you got all upset about it after that and stopped commenting on my post which worked out great because you're giving another example of exactly what I wrote at that point. If you don't agree with somebody you try to post selective data to justify your cause and when somebody tries to challenge it by pointing out the holes and such you just try to belittle them because you don't like the fact that they're challenging your points. Theres a group of posters here that do it and it's a tired act.

You threw out a bunch of data to basically say that there was not a difference between these players and to say fox was having the best year of his career, and I pointed out that the data you used does not have context and if you watch the games you can see a noticeable difference in the players. The gap between highest and makar to fix has widened significantly. I think the game today demonstrates exactly that. I don't care if the data that you cherry pick tries to say that Hughes and fox are on an equal level or if fox is having the best year of his career bc if you watch the games your eyes and tell you plenty about the multiple different ways that Hughes and his pace of play affect the game well beyond anything that fox does. And you won't admit that which is fine, so If you just want people to agree with you and not challenge you than keep with that group of people because there's no constructive conversations that ever come out of this.
 
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Just like many of your other posts, what you put in this post is inaccurate. I made a comment during the summer that you act super arrogant to people that disagree with you and try to belittle them and then you got all upset about it after that and stopped commenting on my post which worked out great because you're giving another example of exactly what I wrote at that point. If you don't agree with somebody you try to post selective data to justify your cause and when somebody tries to challenge it by pointing out the holes and such you just try to belittle them because you don't like the fact that they're challenging your points. Theres a group of posters here that do it and it's a tired act.

You threw out a bunch of data to basically say that there was not a difference between these players and to say fox was having the best year of his career, and I pointed out that the data you used does not have context and if you watch the games you can see a noticeable difference in the players. The gap between highest and makar to fix has widened significantly. I think the game today demonstrates exactly that. I don't care if the data that you cherry pick tries to say that Hughes and fox are on an equal level or if fox is having the best year of his career bc if you watch the games your eyes and tell you plenty about the multiple different ways that Hughes and his pace of play affect the game well beyond anything that fox does. And you won't admit that which is fine, so If you just want people to agree with you and not challenge you than keep with that group of people because there's no constructive conversations that ever come out of this.

You are, once again, wrong.


The last time I mentioned Cale Makar, in any post, was discussing his contract and NTC.


The only time I mentioned Hughes this month was in response to your stupid comment of "If Fox is so good then it's amazing the team is so bad" asking why Vancouver is only in the WC2 if Hughes is so good and stating bad teams have good players.

I have not posted a single stat about either of the two of them nor have I compared their play to Fox.

Clearly you are either mixing me up with someone else or you just have no idea what you're saying and are making things up.
 
The proper take on Fox is he's a very good player who's been mediocre for the past ~Calendar year+, with injuries playing a factor, and the team going in the shitter too.

Saying he's a bad defenseman is lunacy. While not nearly as crazy but still dumb is using analytics to say he's been great this year and everything is fine, yadda yadda.

Well see how he fairs going forward with a long offseason. He'll really need to work on skating/fitness/shooting in offseason to get it back to the point where it's not as big a weakness as it is right now. Because right now he can't skate or shoot.

He's not part of the rotten crew in 93, 20, 16, 10 etc. you don't trade him for the hell of it. .
He's not great defensively and he does get outmuscles often (not always). His lack of speed and pace are noticeable. The rangers play so slow, slower than their overall team speed. Fox dominates the breakouts and it's silly to act like that's not a part of this. The breakout "structure" definitely plays a part of this as well, but fox rarely skates the puck or pushes the pace and we all know why... He's not a great skater and people can try to deny it or defend it as much as they want but you just need to watch the game...

I don't know anyone that is saying trade fox just to trade him, but the comments I've made and I think others is that you should look and see what the trade options are before him nmc kicks in bc if there is a deal for an NHL level hockey trade this is the only time it will most likely be possible. After this summer his nmc kicks in and he will be here until into his 30s when he will need his retirement contract as an even slower, worse skating pp specialist. Everyone keeps giving him a pass bc of his injuries but they seem to ignore the fact that at his size injuries add up quicker and injuries to his lower body (like the knee) that cause him to lose a step will stand out more on a poor skater compared to even league average skaters. And don't give me this burst speed nonsense, the NHL is not about burst speed unless you are MCD that can just create insane separation, the league today is about higher/faster aggregate speed and pace. The game today demands it be played virtually at all times at a high pace...
 
You are, once again, wrong.


The last time I mentioned Cale Makar, in any post, was discussing his contract and NTC.


The only time I mentioned Hughes this month was in response to your stupid comment of "If Fox is so good then it's amazing the team is so bad" asking why Vancouver is only in the WC2 if Hughes is so good and stating bad teams have good players.

I have not posted a single stat about either of the two of them nor have I compared their play to Fox.

Clearly you are either mixing me up with someone else or you just have no idea what you're saying and are making things up.
You're so ridiculous, the exact posting chain that you commented on and jumped in on was another poster making the argument about the 3 players and you coming in to discredit the idea that he's falling off And that there's no separation from him falling off. Just please put me on ignore already...
 

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