Confirmed with Link: Adam Foote Named Head Coach of the Vancouver Canucks

[andora]

So.. retooling the retool?

if that helps call it whatever you want

 

[4th line culture]

if that helps call it whatever you want

What would you call it?

 

[andora]

What would you call it?

this year was a major setback to becoming a consistent playoff team

this stuff is insane i almost wish they were all fired so we could read all the first date stuff again

 

[F A N]

Pretty sure no team has gone through a retool and then tada contender in 2 years. That timeline seems like a fantasy.

The Bruins? They traded Kessel for picks in 2009. The Rutherford-era Penguins? Avalanche during MacKinnon era (it took a while for them to actually win a cup though)?

 

[arttk]

The Bruins? They traded Kessel for picks in 2009. The Rutherford-era Penguins? Avalanche during MacKinnon era (it took a while for them to actually win a cup though)?

Trading away Kessel when he can wasn't a core like Bergeron, Chara seems like a stretch. Also not sure how trading away 1 player is for considered as retooling. Maybe we need a more clear definition on what constitutes as a retool.

How did th Ave retool? They rebuild a rebuild and then sucked after MacKinnon was drafted.

Ok yeah I think rh Pens is a legit one. So the last person to retool in a short term is JR.

 

[andora]

Trading away Kessel when he can wasn't a core like Bergeron, Chara seems like a stretch. Also not sure how trading away 1 player is for considered as retooling. Maybe we need a more clear definition on what constitutes as a retool.

How did th Ave retool? They rebuild a rebuild and then sucked after MacKinnon was drafted.

Ok yeah I think rh Pens is a legit one. So the last person to retool in a short term is JR.

There are no guidelines to this stupid term teams in that mid-range try and get better and sometimes they shift Direction when things aren't working

I guess this term means about seven or eight different things with no specific timeline and doesn't account for a lot of situations or parameters

But they are not free from criticism

 

[arttk]

There are no guidelines to this stupid term teams in that mid-range try and get better and sometimes they shift Direction when things aren't working

I guess this term means about seven or eight different things with no specific timeline and doesn't account for a lot of situations or parameters

But they are not free from criticism

Yeah I think the thing that really matters is have management shown they can put this team on the right path because I think that is the key thing that will determine if Quinn will extend. I don't really buy the idea that we need to be Florida level good for him to extend. Just getting back to what we were the season prior should be enough and I think we'll see if they can do it soon enough. I feel like a lot of folks here just want to declare this as a failure.

 

[andora]

Yeah I think the thing that really matters is have management shown they can put this team on the right path because I think that is the key thing that will determine if Quinn will extend. I don't really buy the idea that we need to be Florida level good for him to extend. Just getting back to what we were the season prior should be enough and I think we'll see if they can do it soon enough. I feel like a lot of folks here just want to declare this as a failure.

If there are a lot of bosses that post here they must fire a lot of people

 

[F A N]

Trading away Kessel when he can wasn't a core like Bergeron, Chara seems like a stretch. Also not sure how trading away 1 player is for considered as retooling. Maybe we need a more clear definition on what constitutes as a retool.

For me, a retool is an acknowledged attempt to take a step back in an effort to take two or more steps forward rather than a rebuild where you're not even looking to compete. Looking back, given that there may have been contractual and player/coach conflict reasons for trading Kessel, it wasn't a planned retool. With that said, Kessel was a former top 5 pick and top goalscorer so if trading him for picks doesn't constitute a retool because he wasn't a core player then did Rutherford/Allvin retooled this team? Prior to this season, the only "core player" they traded was Horvat and by that time he was more Kessel than Bergeron/Chara. Plus we tried to extend him.

We also have to define what a contender means. How about the 2015 draft moves? It didn't end up benefitting the Bruins as hoped but arguably they were contenders when they won the President's Cup.

How did th Ave retool? They rebuild a rebuild and then sucked after MacKinnon was drafted.

Sure and there are teams that kind of just building too.

Ok yeah I think rh Pens is a legit one. So the last person to retool in a short term is JR.

But the only "core player" they traded was Neal. There was certainly a lot of turnover and key additions.

 

[arttk]

For me, a retool is an acknowledged attempt to take a step back in an effort to take two or more steps forward rather than a rebuild where you're not even looking to compete. Looking back, given that there may have been contractual and player/coach conflict reasons for trading Kessel, it wasn't a planned retool. With that said, Kessel was a former top 5 pick and top goalscorer so if trading him for picks doesn't constitute a retool because he wasn't a core player then did Rutherford/Allvin retooled this team? Prior to this season, the only "core player" they traded was Horvat and by that time he was more Kessel than Bergeron/Chara. Plus we tried to extend him.

We also have to define what a contender means. How about the 2015 draft moves? It didn't end up benefitting the Bruins as hoped but arguably they were contenders when they won the President's Cup.


Sure and there are teams that kind of just building too.


But the only "core player" they traded was Neal. There was certainly a lot of turnover and key additions.

I think retool is more about changing the makeup of the team, taking a step back or not is just a byproduct of that. Pitts didn’t just trade Neal, they basically flushed the whole roste. Hell he made 15 trades in 2 seasons leading to the cup and he made 50 trades over his tenure there. I would argue the pens under him was under a constant state of flux that maybe the term retool doesn’t apply. He acquired a bunch of key players and then flip them because JR is JR and he did it even after winning the cup. it’s like the common convention of retool is not a thing for him, high turnover is just his way of running a team.

 

[Vector]

 

[Canucks LB]

I think all three of them would do well

 

[andora]

As long as kenface doesnt come here

 

[Bleach Clean]

Uhhh they were successful and then things fell apart. The reason why it fell apart is really important. They were successful in constructing a roster in a retool, so if we are talking about ability to build, they have shown they are capable.

miller would actually be a bargain even if he ages out considering Bennet is going to reset the center market with a 10M contract. All 2Cs between 50-70pt range are going to be making at least 8 moving forward.

A successful retool means they have opened up a multi-year cup contention window. 1 year in the playoffs doesn't fit that bill.

Miller at an average/good 2C level is markedly below the 1C/Elite 1C level he was at last year. That decline hurts them in trying to win the cup. They are short 1 of their 4 key drivers in such a case (Pettersson, Miller, Hughes and Demko).

Not in this case - in general case what is a retool timeline (whatever the hell retool means anyway)

Tried and now setback.. absolutely

You dont know that so a guess is not evidence

I don't know that Miller would have turned 33 next year, and that age related decline hits every player?

So you agree that they tried a 1-2 retool and had a "setback". That settles a major portion of the debate.

I gave you the general case for a retool: 2-4 years. Most GM tenures run about 5 years.

 

[Bleach Clean]

There are no guidelines to this stupid term teams in that mid-range try and get better and sometimes they shift Direction when things aren't working

I guess this term means about seven or eight different things with no specific timeline and doesn't account for a lot of situations or parameters

But they are not free from criticism

That first sentence is the fundamental misunderstanding here: You think there are no parameters to a retool, questioning the very definition of the word, therefore the team can be in whatever state (setback) and it's still 'on plan'. This is incorrect.

There are standards via precedent and intel. Like, look at management being put on notice with the Foote hire (Shah). If there's no standard, that doesn't happen.

 

[arttk]

A successful retool means they have opened up a multi-year cup contention window. 1 year in the playoffs doesn't fit that bill.

Miller at an average/good 2C level is markedly below the 1C/Elite 1C level he was at last year. That decline hurts them in trying to win the cup. They are short 1 of their 4 key drivers in such a case (Pettersson, Miller, Hughes and Demko).



I don't know that Miller would have turned 33 next year, and that age related decline hits every player?

So you agree that they tried a 1-2 retool and had a "setback". That settles a major portion of the debate.

I gave you the general case for a retool: 2-4 years. Most GM tenures run about 5 years.

Ok let’s recap.
The timeline and success metric you have defined for a retool is so unrealistic that maybe 1 team meets it within the whole cap era.
As fans we should try to be at least somewhat realistic about expectations. It seems like you are mad about something that is mo realistic. On top of that it looks like you don’t give a f*** about process as well. Yeah they had a set back, it’s important to understand what was the cause. If it was roster construction issue and we are tied down with a bunch of poor pro and amateur scouting leading to a bunch of anchor contracts that I would agree that we are f***ed but that’s not the case. The setback was caused by one single individual and that guy is gone and they “just” need to continue to have good pro/amateur scouting and continue to build. Also on top of that, we are going to see within 1 month what they are capable of so this whole screaming about they’ve failed and we need to rebuild and f*** these guys seems misguided and premature.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Ok let’s recap.
The timeline and success metric you have defined for a retool is so unrealistic that maybe 1 team meets it within the whole cap era.
As fans we should try to be at least somewhat realistic about expectations. It seems like you are mad about something that is mo realistic. On top of that it looks like you don’t give a f*** about process as well. Yeah they had a set back, it’s important to understand what was the cause. If it was roster construction issue and we are tied down with a bunch of poor pro and amateur scouting leading to a bunch of anchor contracts that I would agree that we are f***ed but that’s not the case. The setback was caused by one single individual and that guy is gone and they “just” need to continue to have good pro/amateur scouting and continue to build. Also on top of that, we are going to see within 1 month what they are capable of so this whole screaming about they’ve failed and we need to rebuild and f*** these guys seems misguided and premature.

Nobody has said rebuild. This statement, like your recap, is well off base.

Miller didn't derail the success of their retool. I have already explained why. They were not legit contenders with him either.

Please let me know why a 2-4 year window for a retool is an unrealistic expectation? Most GMs have an average tenure of 5 years.

 

[arttk]

Nobody has said rebuild. This statement, like your recap, is well off base.

Miller didn't derail the success of their retool. I have already explained why. They were not contenders with him either.

Please let me know why a 2-4 year window for a retool is an unrealistic expectation? Most GMs have an average tenure of 5 years.

You said retool is a 1-2 year thing that leads to multiple cup contending runs. That’s hyper unrealistic and not based on reality.

Which team was able to do that outside of the Pens? Hell even the Pens I would argue didn’t actually retool because making a ton of trades is just how JR likes to do things regardless.

We were in the process of building and it got derailed by Miller. If Miller didn’t blow it up we would be like 2 top6 guys from being a legit contender. Your arbitrary time horizon has no actual meaning in reality. It’s not like they would suddenly stop because oh we are not a contender in the bleach clean 2 year horizon I guess we failed annd now we have no choice but to pack it up and rebuild.

 

[racerjoe]

Nobody has said rebuild. This statement, like your recap, is well off base.

Miller didn't derail the success of their retool. I have already explained why. They were not legit contenders with him either.

Please let me know why a 2-4 year window for a retool is an unrealistic expectation? Most GMs have an average tenure of 5 years.

How were they not legit contenders with him?

 

[Bleach Clean]

How were they not legit contenders with him?

They were not amongst the best 4-6 teams in the NHL. Likely more. Underdogs vs EDM, DAL or FLA. Set record low shot totals in the playoffs. Rode high conversion rates. I could go on...

Think about it this way: They couldn't even maintain a playoff spot without him... And that NYR couldn't get into the playoffs with him.... Doesn't that suggest the strength of the team and him in both instances?

 

[racerjoe]

They were not amongst the best 4-6 teams in the NHL. Likely more. Underdogs vs EDM, DAL or FLA. Set record low shot totals in the playoffs. Rode high conversion rates. I could go on...

Think about it this way: They couldn't even maintain a playoff spot without him... And that NYR couldn't get into the playoffs with him.... Doesn't that suggest the strength of the team and him in both instances?

3rd in the west... underdogs only because our starting two goalies were hurt... 6th I think it was in NHL standings. A single point behind that Florida team you mentioned a head of Edmonton...

Your logic is also faulty... it wasn't just JT or no JT... it was also No Hronek, Pettersson out or hurt and bad when in, Hughes missing for large portion, and our top goalie out, our best goal scorer also missed a huge portion, and that just a tiny bit of what went wrong this year.

 

[andora]

A successful retool means they have opened up a multi-year cup contention window. 1 year in the playoffs doesn't fit that bill.

Miller at an average/good 2C level is markedly below the 1C/Elite 1C level he was at last year. That decline hurts them in trying to win the cup. They are short 1 of their 4 key drivers in such a case (Pettersson, Miller, Hughes and Demko).



I don't know that Miller would have turned 33 next year, and that age related decline hits every player?

So you agree that they tried a 1-2 retool and had a "setback". That settles a major portion of the debate.

I gave you the general case for a retool: 2-4 years. Most GM tenures run about 5 years.

2 to 4 years.. cool we have some time

That first sentence is the fundamental misunderstanding here: You think there are no parameters to a retool, questioning the very definition of the word, therefore the team can be in whatever state (setback) and it's still 'on plan'. This is incorrect.

There are standards via precedent and intel. Like, look at management being put on notice with the Foote hire (Shah). If there's no standard, that doesn't happen.

Oh that silly jim thinking 2 years when it can generall by 2 to 4.. hes too aggressive

Is there an actual definition?

 

[Vector]

 

[Bleach Clean]

You said retool is a 1-2 year thing that leads to multiple cup contending runs. That’s hyper unrealistic and not based on reality.

Which team was able to do that outside of the Pens? Hell even the Pens I would argue didn’t actually retool because making a ton of trades is just how JR likes to do things regardless.

We were in the process of building and it got derailed by Miller. If Miller didn’t blow it up we would be like 2 top6 guys from being a legit contender. Your arbitrary time horizon has no actual meaning in reality. It’s not like they would suddenly stop because oh we are not a contender in the bleach clean 2 year horizon I guess we failed annd now we have no choice but to pack it up and rebuild.

At this point I have to assert you are not reading my posts. I have clarified twice now that the 1-2 year retool was their plan that failed. Not that this is generally the timeline of retools. That would be 2-4 years. And again, no one has said rebuild.

There was a poster here that advocated for a hard 1-2 year retool, and then if that had failed, like now, then rebuild. I actually argued against this poster, but it's funny to see here that you have ascribed his position to me. So weird. Anyway.

3rd in the west... underdogs only because our starting two goalies were hurt... 6th I think it was in NHL standings. A single point behind that Florida team you mentioned a head of Edmonton...

Your logic is also faulty... it wasn't just JT or no JT... it was also No Hronek, Pettersson out or hurt and bad when in, Hughes missing for large portion, and our top goalie out, our best goal scorer also missed a huge portion, and that just a tiny bit of what went wrong this year.

VAN's regular season belied its actual true talent. Silovs was playing well and they were still dogs against FLA, EDM and DAL. Did it matter that their regular season record was better? No. The talent disparity is there.

It's not my faulty logic that said JT alone derailed the Canucks' season (look up). They were not a contender last year or this year (with or without him).

 

[Bleach Clean]

2 to 4 years.. cool we have some time
Oh that silly jim thinking 2 years when it can generall by 2 to 4.. hes too aggressive

Is there an actual definition?

Jim didn't follow the longer timeline. He burned his assets up front. Now they're scrambling.

Since I've indulged you by answering your questions in good faith, I've got one for you: If Jim has been on plan for his retool, why was he put on notice with the Foote hire?