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Speculation: A Pretty Long List of 'Own Rentals' (those that have walked to UFA). Trending...

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ottomaddox

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
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Toronto
...towards letting Rielly walk too. This was speculated by both Justin Bourne and JD Bunkis (SN Leafs Hour Aug 5th). That Dubas might be losing his job, so he's going to hang on to Rielly until his contract runs out. In doing so he risks not re-signing him and losing him to another team.

Here's some of the significant players that have walked at the end of their contract:

Freddy Andersen
Zack Hyman
JVR
Tyler Bozak
Leo Komarov
Jake Gardiner
Ron Hainsey
Roman Polak
Tyson Barrie

Please feel free to add to my list if I missed someone.

I know there is still time, but I don't trust KD. He is a man of his word. He can't possibly keep the big 4 and rielly.

What do you think is going to happen?
Click to read more...
 
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Somewhere between half and three quarters of these players you listed leafs fans couldn't get rid of fast enough...

But now they are worth criticizing Dubas over?

Don't get me wrong. I think we've let a couple guys go for nothing that ideally we'd like to have seen go down differently, but it's not an epidemic and every team could make a list like this
 
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ottomaddox said:
...towards letting Rielly walk too. This was speculated by both Justin Bourne and JD Bunkis (SN Leafs Hour Aug 5th). That Dubas might be losing his job, so he's going to hang on to Rielly until his contract runs out. In doing so he risks not re-signing him and losing him to another team.

Here's some of the significant players that have walked at the end of their contract:

Freddy Andersen
Zack Hyman
JVR
Tyler Bozak
Leo Komarov
Jake Gardiner
Ron Hainsey
Roman Polak

Please feel free to add to my list if I missed someone.

I know there is still time, but I don't trust KD. He is a man of his word. He can't possibly keep the big 4 and rielly.

What do you think is going to happen?
Click to expand...
Why hire a rookie, put him through the school of hard knocks and then fire him after three years of lessons learned? Seems pretty dumb to me. Yes, we should have hired an experienced assistant gm to help Kyle...but seems more like Shanahan problems more than anything.
 
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Some of those names certainly would've had more trade value than the others. In turn, those players would've also had value to the Leafs in the team's various attempts to push forward. I'd still maintain the lack of playoff success to be the bigger setback here.

Hyman leaving has probably - in some strange way - made me less optimistic about retaining Rielly beyond this season. I could potentially add Campbell to that too.
 
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Nobody envys Dubas choice here. If you truly believe this team is a contender it is much stronger with Rielly than without, but using him as an own rental and getting nothing for him after just letting Hyman walk the season before is poor asset management.

If he's worried about his job and not the team the choice is easy to keep him in hopes they run through 2 or 3 rounds, but from a management perspective if he cannot be convinced to sign a deal that is good for us we should trade him for assets.

Rough position to be in. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.
 
We'll just keep signing the best players outside of the NHL. Will barely even notice anyone's missing.

I believe Lehtonen was slated to be taking Morgan's place.
 
ottomaddox said:
...towards letting Rielly walk too. This was speculated by both Justin Bourne and JD Bunkis (SN Leafs Hour Aug 5th). That Dubas might be losing his job, so he's going to hang on to Rielly until his contract runs out. In doing so he risks not re-signing him and losing him to another team.

Here's some of the significant players that have walked at the end of their contract:

Freddy Andersen
Zack Hyman
JVR
Tyler Bozak
Leo Komarov
Jake Gardiner
Ron Hainsey
Roman Polak

Please feel free to add to my list if I missed someone.

I know there is still time, but I don't trust KD. He is a man of his word. He can't possibly keep the big 4 and rielly.

What do you think is going to happen?
Click to expand...

These would fall under Lou since they were pending UFA's by the time Dubas took over. If we wanted to trade them for value, Lou would have had to made those trades.

Out of that entire list, the only one I think that should have been moved was Gardiner (that Dubas could have moved). The rest had more value to the team than in a trade. The same applies to Rielly (if we can't get a proper replacement for him), Campbell, and Mikheyev.

Also important to note that we picked up free agents for no assets as well, and if we did move those pending UFA's for assets, we'd need to spend assets to replace them. It's not a one-way street. We can't trade Rielly for a 1st++ and then be without a #1 defenseman... We'd be spending a good chunk of Rielly's return getting a guy who is semi-capable of replacing him.
 
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If some of those players are considered "significant", then you could create a longer list for most teams.

Komarov was a healthy scratched 4th liner at the end of his time here.
We actually received more assets out of Polak than we paid to get him, and then we re-signed him for free in FA.
Hainsey was 38 (retired a year later) and bottom-pairing quality at best at that point. He was originally signed for free. So was Bozak.
These are not significant losses.

We may have lost Andersen in FA, but we also signed a better Mrazek for free in FA.
We may have lost Gardiner in FA (an injured 3rd pairing D by the time he left) but we also signed a better Brodie for free in FA.
We may have lost Hyman and JVR in FA, but we also signed an elite player in Tavares for free in FA.

All teams lose players over time. Why they were let go, and the players that a team gains for free always seem to be left out of these discussions. Decisions on half of those players also weren't even under current management.
 
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This is classic hindsight, if we were in the same position we are now but dealt all those guys the same posters would say "If Dubas kept them and had faith maybe we would've had the depth to move on". Just people trying to go at Dubas for literally anything
 
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SeaOfBlue said:
These would fall under Lou since they were pending UFA's by the time Dubas took over. If we wanted to trade them for value, Lou would have had to made those trades.

Out of that entire list, the only one I think that should have been moved was Gardiner (that Dubas could have moved). The rest had more value to the team than in a trade. The same applies to Rielly (if we can't get a proper replacement for him), Campbell, and Mikheyev.

Also important to note that we picked up free agents for no assets as well, and if we did move those pending UFA's for assets, we'd need to spend assets to replace them. It's not a one-way street. We can't trade Rielly for a 1st++ and then be without a #1 defenseman... We'd be spending a good chunk of Rielly's return getting a guy who is semi-capable of replacing him.
Click to expand...

Kyle Dubas has been Assistant GM since July 2014. I don't know why he held a title like that and had nothing to do with managing the team. Something tells me he did manage the team.

The issue is not a one way street. I agree. A GM has to know when to add because their team is contending, or knows when to move on from UFAs. The one GM gets nothing in return, but does get playoff success. The other doesn't something in return, but no playoffs (or no playoff success). Shanny, Lou, Dubas all seemed to not get a good read on this team. Dubas especially who's moved 1st round picks like they are going out of style, and no playoff success (sometimes no playoffs).

Sure you can split hairs, but Shanny is the common thread then. So why does Shanny allow UFAs to walk so much?
 
May as well add the purchased rentals to the list as well. Dubas and fans a like looked at the team over the past 2-3 years and thought we were contenders. When you're contending you don't trade your UFA's away. If this team makes it to the conference finals (maybe even just the second round) no one is saying anything. Hard to foresee losing to both Columbus and Montreal in back to back years.
 
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Sypher04 said:
Somewhere between half and three quarters of these players you listed leafs fans couldn't get rid of fast enough...

But now they are worth criticizing Dubas over?

Don't get me wrong. I think we've let a couple guys go for nothing that ideally we'd like to have seen go down differently, but it's not an epidemic and every team could make a list like this
Click to expand...

Fans don't get rid of players.
 
ottomaddox said:
Kyle Dubas has been Assistant GM since July 2014. I don't know why he held a title like that and had nothing to do with managing the team. Something tells me he did manage the team.

The issue is not a one way street. I agree. A GM has to know when to add because their team is contending, or knows when to move on from UFAs. The one GM gets nothing in return, but does get playoff success. The other doesn't something in return, but no playoffs (or no playoff success). Shanny, Lou, Dubas all seemed to not get a good read on this team. Dubas especially who's moved 1st round picks like they are going out of style, and no playoff success (sometimes no playoffs).

Sure you can split hairs, but Shanny is the common thread then. So why does Shanny allow UFAs to walk so much?
Click to expand...
I'm sure you've looked at other organizations before jumping to these conclusions.
Is it really 'so much' compared to other playoff teams?
 
Willchel Marlynder said:
May as well add the purchased rentals to the list as well. Dubas and fans a like looked at the team over the past 2-3 years and thought we were contenders. When you're contending you don't trade your UFA's away. If this team makes it to the conference finals (maybe even just the second round) no one is saying anything. Hard to foresee losing to both Columbus and Montreal in back to back years.
Click to expand...
To be fair it really only seems like one person complaining.
 
Dekes For Days said:
If some of those players are considered "significant", then you could create a longer list for most teams.

Komarov was a healthy scratched 4th liner at the end of his time here.
We actually received more assets out of Polak than we paid to get him, and then we re-signed him for free in FA.
Hainsey was 38 (retired a year later) and bottom-pairing quality at best at that point. He was originally signed for free. So was Bozak.
These are not significant losses.

We may have lost Andersen in FA, but we also signed a better Mrazek for free in FA.
We may have lost Gardiner in FA (an injured 3rd pairing D by the time he left) but we also signed a better Brodie for free in FA.
We may have lost Hyman and JVR in FA, but we also signed an elite player in Tavares for free in FA.

All teams lose players over time. Why they were let go, and the players that a team gains for free always seem to be left out of these discussions. Decisions on half of those players also weren't even under current management.
Click to expand...

I left TOR's lack of playoff success out of the discussion too. Definitely a factor in KD's decision to go own rental.
 
While it seems wasteful to let an 'own rental' walk for nothing, unless your team is tanking, it only makes sense to hang onto them and then let them go. Otherwise, you're just going out and buying someone else's own rental to fill the hole.

Let's say Morgan's going rate in the off season is 8 per, and the leafs decide to not pay that. By keeping him now, we are getting an 8m d man for 5 million. definitely worth doing, and we don't have all the intangible challenges that come with rotating a core player out.

The gain that the franchise gets when the own rental leaves is the cap space to fill in for them. Sure, it would be great to have more prospects, but we can't trade fully baked players when we are a contender (to at least win a round or two) in order to get futures.

Now, if the Leafs stagger out of the gate and are out of playoff contention, or even doubtful to make it, then all bets are off and expiring and near-expiring assets would be moved in order to reset for the future, but assuming the Leafs are in a playoff position, the only rational plan of action is to keep key assets like our number 1 d and do the best we can.

I'm way more concerned that we will be parting with more futures as we desperately try to bolster for the playoffs.
 
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the only ways to avoid "own rentals" are to either never be good, or to overpay pending UFAs. Because of this, every good team in the league has own rentals. The people who pretend it's exclusive to the Leafs are bizarre, and they would also be the first ones to complain about Dubas overpaying Hyman if he gave him the same contract that Edmonton did
 
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