A Few Words About Kevin Klein

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I think you are understating his value. He played 17 minutes per game during the regular season and is above 13 right now. Does not play on power play.

In 30 games with the Rangers he averaged 15 mins, less than the current other 5 ranger dmen in the lineup.

He is advertised as a steady defensive player, yet he barely plays on the PK and gets slaughtered on most nights possession wise. Does not compute.
 
His numbers are a little screwed by Nashville no? Look at Weber's numbers, they aren't very good and he's an elite dman. KK is on a steal of a contract and plays solid defense. I think he could take Stralman's spot if he had to. He's out produced DZ as well, and he's not exactly known for his offense. We won that trade big time.
 
Del Zotto has been a healthy scratch multiple times for Nashville for good trade by slats. It was funny watching DZ go from in a pairing with Seth jones, to the bottom pair, to a healthy scratch. I highly doubt they pay his QO
 
In 30 games with the Rangers he averaged 15 mins, less than the current other 5 ranger dmen in the lineup.

He is advertised as a steady defensive player, yet he barely plays on the PK and gets slaughtered on most nights possession wise. Does not compute.

You'd rather have Del Zotto-Moore than Klein-Moore? -------------be---------cause-------the Del Zotto-Moore pairing was a disaster waiting to happen just about every night they played together. Del Zotto by the way didn't play all that well in Nashville either. I'm thinking that there's a pretty good chance he doesn't get his $3 mil per year RFA qualification--that the Predators will set him loose to be a UFA.

It's funny how you overlook things you don't want to see. Klein has added a little offense and he is +8 in the playoffs however many minutes he's played--his +8 leads the team and like it or not that's pretty ****ing good--and there's no more of this nonsense about overplaying our top 4 because the bottom pairing now can handle a lot more ****. Personally I think we ripped Nashville off.
 
Klein is capable of playing top-4 minutes, he is on our 3rd pair due to the fact that we are stacked on the backend.
 
1. He's better than Del Zotto, and while older is signed long term so it isn't a big concern. In that sense we won the deal.

2. His performance should have little bearing on re-signing or not re-signing Stralman. It isn't like a 2.9 cap hit on the bottom pairing is egregiously high.

3. I wish he would refrain from jumping into the play as his offensive instincts are at best terrible and at worse completely nonexistent.
 
In 30 games with the Rangers he averaged 15 mins, less than the current other 5 ranger dmen in the lineup.

He is advertised as a steady defensive player, yet he barely plays on the PK and gets slaughtered on most nights possession wise. Does not compute.

Possession stats aren't really the best thing to use to judge someones defensive ability. Obviously they are important but if you are the type of defenseman that is good positionally and with your stick but not a great skater or puck mover you are almost sure to have poor possession stats since it's more difficult to clear the zone. That doesn't mean that player isn't good defensively though. If he's always in the shooting/passing lanes, able to block shots/passes, able to keep guys to the outside and prevent them from driving to the net that's the type of player that plays well defensively but won't have good possession numbers. There are different types of possession. If you're a good puck mover like maybe a Del Zotto sure you'll be in your own zone less but when you are in your zone you're getting beat 1 on 1 all the time, letting guys around you, giving up point blank shots. If you're less good at moving the puck/skating you'll be in your own zone more of course but the quality of chances will be lower.

Blindly stating that possession numbers have a 100% correlation and are the number one determinant of player ability is a misuse of these stats. Imagine the extreme case where player A is in his own zone 50% of the time and never blocks a shot and player B is in his own zone 75% of the time and blocks 33% of shots (and they get out of the zone). In terms of chances allowed defensively these are equivalent situations but just looking at one number of possession you would state A>>>>>B
 
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Prior to coming to the Rangers, Klein was a 20 minute a night guy

on a top 10 defensive club in Nashville

Actually, he was top three in terms of minute munching for the Preds since the 2010-11 season.

They have been one of the better defensive teams in the league.

He's not getting enough respect here.

Great 2nd pairing defenceman playing 3rd pairing minutes

Mostly this. I wouldn't call him a great 2nd pairing guy, but a solid one for sure.
 
Sy wouldn't mathematically that be equal? Doesn't 0.5 equal 0.75 by 0.67? Ha, I was trying to do the math and got equal numbers.

Yea that was my point.
Imagine two players who play 20 minutes/game.
Assume each team attempts 1 shot per minute for simplicity.
Player A in zone 50% of game = 10 shots attempts allowed
Player B in zone 75% of game = 15 shots attempts allowed.
Player A allows 10 shots total since he never blocks one.
Player B allows 10 shots total since he blocks 1/3 of them and they leave the zone.

In terms of chances allowed these two players are equivalent. Ignoring all else defensively they are equal. The possession numbers don't tell you which of these players is better defensively. In this case of course player A is better overall since he has more time in the offensive zone generating positive scoring chances but defensively there is no difference. That is why it is not necessarily fair to say "Player X has bad possession numbers so he is terrible defensively!"
 
If there's one thing I hate to see almost more than anything else it's one of our defense pairings running around all over the defensive zone chasing the play. Chaos in your own end of the ice--everybody out of position. The Del Zotto-Moore pairing were doing it all the time. You could say it was more the one--you can say it was more the other. DZ bought his own ticket out of town--he was the more experienced, he was the one who was supposed to put up the offense and he was the one being paid considerably more for the offense he was no longer producing. I watched the occasional Nashville game after the trade and he was still chasing plays around and not putting up any offense there either.

There is such a thing as puck possession stats--there's no denying that. There's also such a thing as composure under pressure and there's no real stat for that. Klein's puck possession stats might not be great but his composure under pressure is light years better than DZ's. That's why the Rangers can roll out their third pairing of Klein-Moore these days without their fans having multiple heart seizures every other one of their shifts watching DZ-Moore panic under pressure.

Having Klein is just so much better.
 
Not questioning their merit or anything, but aren't most possession stats simply a more in depth version of +/-?

They (fenwick/corsi) are +/- replacing goals with shot attempts which is a good proxy for time of possession. And they do have good correlations to wins, better than anything else we have now such as goal differential, shot differential etc..but they are not the be all end all.
 
They (fenwick/corsi) are +/- replacing goals with shot attempts which is a good proxy for time of possession. And they do have good correlations to wins, better than anything else we have now such as goal differential, shot differential etc..but they are not the be all end all.

Essentially what I thought, thanks for the clarification.
 
Anyone have stats on what forwards/lines he's spent the most TOI with this playoffs?

extraskater.com and/or behindthenet IIRC. Edit: I think BTN is the site used for that purpose.

5v5 have been with: LM1 - John Moore (obviously); LM2 - Zuccarello; LM3 - St. Louis; LM4 Carl Hagelin; LM5 Benoit Pouliot.

There's the possibly I've also completely misinterpreted this, LOL, but anyway, the link: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time...5&f3=KEVINKLEIN&c=0+1+3+5+8+9+11+13+29+31+33#

Somewhere, -31- is smiling, lol.

---

I feel like this picture aptly sums up this trade:

24520354_SA.jpg
 
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This is one of those times where the eye test proves more than his possession numbers.

I really like what Klein's brought to this team.

Yes and Yes.

MDZ was getting scratched by the non-playoff bound Preds towards the end of the season - just like he was in NY. Hope he gets his game back, but the Rangers made the right move.
 
Mostly this. I wouldn't call him a great 2nd pairing guy, but a solid one for sure.

me neither, but I had to balance the equation.

Based on minutes in Nashville, Klein was 3rd behind Weber and Suter.

Great was a bit much, but he's better than a 3rd pairing guy.

Legit 2nd pairing D playing 3rd pair minutes.
 
His numbers are a little screwed by Nashville no? Look at Weber's numbers, they aren't very good and he's an elite dman. KK is on a steal of a contract and plays solid defense. I think he could take Stralman's spot if he had to. He's out produced DZ as well, and he's not exactly known for his offense. We won that trade big time.

Weber's numbers aren't good?

You'd rather have Del Zotto-Moore than Klein-Moore? -------------be---------cause-------the Del Zotto-Moore pairing was a disaster waiting to happen just about every night they played together. Del Zotto by the way didn't play all that well in Nashville either. I'm thinking that there's a pretty good chance he doesn't get his $3 mil per year RFA qualification--that the Predators will set him loose to be a UFA.

It's funny how you overlook things you don't want to see. Klein has added a little offense and he is +8 in the playoffs however many minutes he's played--his +8 leads the team and like it or not that's pretty ****ing good--and there's no more of this nonsense about overplaying our top 4 because the bottom pairing now can handle a lot more ****. Personally I think we ripped Nashville off.

Preferably, I'd rather have neither. Klein is a better fit for the Rangers than MDZ though, but I don't think that makes him a better player or a more valuable asset. I think MDZ should've been moved for LW depth or C depth or picks.

Possession stats aren't really the best thing to use to judge someones defensive ability. Obviously they are important but if you are the type of defenseman that is good positionally and with your stick but not a great skater or puck mover you are almost sure to have poor possession stats since it's more difficult to clear the zone. That doesn't mean that player isn't good defensively though. If he's always in the shooting/passing lanes, able to block shots/passes, able to keep guys to the outside and prevent them from driving to the net that's the type of player that plays well defensively but won't have good possession numbers. There are different types of possession. If you're a good puck mover like maybe a Del Zotto sure you'll be in your own zone less but when you are in your zone you're getting beat 1 on 1 all the time, letting guys around you, giving up point blank shots. If you're less good at moving the puck/skating you'll be in your own zone more of course but the quality of chances will be lower.

Blindly stating that possession numbers have a 100% correlation and are the number one determinant of player ability is a misuse of these stats. Imagine the extreme case where player A is in his own zone 50% of the time and never blocks a shot and player B is in his own zone 75% of the time and blocks 33% of shots (and they get out of the zone). In terms of chances allowed defensively these are equivalent situations but just looking at one number of possession you would state A>>>>>B

Good points, but I think Klein doesn't fit the mould of a player in an AV system. He is playing the same role that Aaron Rome was for the Canucks, but at a higher cost and a higher perceived reputation. Klein would be effective in Torts' system though, I assume.

I am a firm believer that strong puck possession players obviously correlate with winning probability. The goal should be to have the best skating team out there and AV seems to agree. Klein receives the least ice time out of all defenders, yet is the most praised it seems!

TL;dr Klein is an interchangeable part with a lot of other NHL defenders for AV's strict system.

Just a wild guess, but my fellow Rangers fans defensive stance on Klein reminds me of Canucks fans stance on Keith Ballard when he first joined the Canucks.

Your dislike of Klein is hilarious.

Don't really dislike him since I don't know the guy personally. I don't think he's that good of a hockey player though. Besides I don't see how suggesting he's doing fine in his 13 min role is suggesting I dislike him. That's exactly how AV is using him in the playoffs.
 
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