GDT: 9/15 - Preseason - Coyotes vs. Kings (split squad)

[IPreferPi]

True, but he was also getting a ton of minutes, and I don't think this "proves" he can play harder minutes. Keep in mind that 26 of those 59 points came on the powerplay.

More importantly, though, no player other than OEL (who was a rookie at the time and played only 48 games) had a higher percentage of offensive zone starts, and Yandle's relative Corsi was only 1.7. Compare that to 8.1 in 11-12 and 8 this past season.

Not saying that Yandle will ever be an elite shutdown defenseman (and he won't). But you'd better hold Karlsson and Letang to the same standard then if you're going to diminish a defenseman's #1 ability just because he takes more offensive zone starts. With the defensive depth we have and OEL, Z, Klesla, and Morris better suited to shutdown minutes, I have no problem with Tippett using comparative advantage and exploiting matchups as much as he can.

And it seems like you're holding those 26 PP points in 2011 against Yandle - considering how abysmal our PP has been over the past 5 years, I'd consider it a godsend.

 

[kihekah19*]

Let's say you run a vacuum cleaner business. Two of your traveling salesman come back from a day on the road having sold the exact same number of vacuum cleaners. But one of them had been in densely packed condos in an affluent neighborhood while the other one had been out in a more rural area, where the houses are far more spread out and the income level is generally lower. All else being equal, one of your salesmen was able to accomplish the same thing with much tougher circumstances. The next time you can only send one of them out, your decision is much easier.

This is why purely results-oriented analytics are dumb. Let's say you suddenly have to clear $5 million in cap space, and you have two defensemen making exactly $5 million coming off 45-point seasons. If you're looking only at the point totals, it's a coin flip. But if you look deeper and see the one player had fewer minutes, a smaller percentage of offensive zone starts, higher Corsi, better quality of competition, etc., you can make a much more educated decision.

I too had heard that Yandle was selling vacuums in the off season, to try and keep it "old school," but who is this other defensive minded salesman with offensive prowess?

 

[hbk]

I mostly agree. Yandle will never be a shutdown guy, but he's world's better than Oleg Tverdovsky or Deron Quint, and the minutes he gets are far more a function of his offensive proficiency than any defensive deficiency.

That said, it's definitely worth noting that he gets easier minutes. Aside from all the powerplay time (roughly 3:30 per game each of the last two years and 4:00 the year before that), his even strength shifts started in the offensive zone 60% of the time last year (fourth on the team among everyday players) and 55% the year before that. It's inarguable that he plays well in those minutes, but I think the argument goes that if he were a true #1 defenseman, he'd be playing tougher minutes, and his numbers would go down as a result. Still, when you dig a little, his stats aren't far off from the Karlssons, Subbans and Letangs of the world.

Coyotes are deeper at D and have less offensive forwards than the teams in which the players you mention play on. The fact that Tippett uses his bench to his advantage is just a sign that he's a good coach. People are reading way too much into ability/coaches motivation.

I like analytics but I'm not convinced the current higher level stats are capturing what people think they are capturing. We're not their yet.

 

[PhoPhan]

Not saying that Yandle will ever be an elite shutdown defenseman (and he won't). But you'd better hold Karlsson and Letang to the same standard then if you're going to diminish a defenseman's #1 ability just because he takes more offensive zone starts. With the defensive depth we have and OEL, Z, Klesla, and Morris better suited to shutdown minutes, I have no problem with Tippett using comparative advantage and exploiting matchups as much as he can.

And it seems like you're holding those 26 PP points in 2011 against Yandle - considering how abysmal our PP has been over the past 5 years, I'd consider it a godsend.

Not at all. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Yandle's OZS% is not really out of line with Karlsson or Letang (or Subban or a number of other offensively productive defensemen).

I'm not really concerned with whether or not Yandle is a #1 defensemen. Whether he's one of the 30 best defensemen in the league is arguable (and I lean toward including him), but that's rarely what people mean by "#1 defensemen." It's usually something much more subjective than that.

I'm not trying to diminish anything about Yandle's abilities here. I've been one of his biggest supporters for a while now. But as long as we're discussing him, I think context is valuable.

 

[PhoPhan]

Coyotes are deeper at D and have less offensive forwards than the teams in which the players you mention play on. The fact that Tippett uses his bench to his advantage is just a sign that he's a good coach. People are reading way too much into ability/coaches motivation.

I like analytical but I'm not convinced the current higher level stats are capturing what people think they are capturing. We're not their yet.

Again, I mostly agree. Situationally stratified minutes are more indicative of a progressive coach than a weak roster. It will be really fun to see how the Rangers and Canucks play this year after swapping one of the biggest evangelists of situational minutes for one of its biggest detractors (at least in terms of how they use their players—I don't know much about what they've said publicly).

I don't think the advanced stats we're seeing in hockey today are perfect by any means, but using them in concert with the more traditional metrics will almost always paint a clearer picture than simply discarding them, so long as the people looking at them know what they mean.

 

[BAdvocate]

That said, it's definitely worth noting that he gets easier minutes.

why?

to find reasons to diminish an all star on the team you root for?

I don't find any worth to it, but it sure makes these threads less enjoyable.

 

[XX]

Do you disagree that Tippett generally gives Yandle easier minutes?

No. Are you claiming that this is out of some deficiency Yandle has? Because it's clearly about roles and coaching, something which Tippett is good at.

 

[hbk]

Again, I mostly agree. Situationally stratified minutes are more indicative of a progressive coach than a weak roster. It will be really fun to see how the Rangers and Canucks play this year after swapping one of the biggest evangelists of situational minutes for one of its biggest detractors (at least in terms of how they use their players—I don't know much about what they've said publicly).

I don't think the advanced stats we're seeing in hockey today are perfect by any means, but using them in concert with the more traditional metrics will almost always paint a clearer picture than simply discarding them, so long as the people looking at them know what they mean.

I think we are on the same page.

 

[PhoPhan]

why?

to find reasons to diminish an all star on the team you root for?

I don't find any worth to it, but it sure makes these threads less enjoyable.

Why? Because this is a discussion board, and I personally prefer to have more knowledge, not less.

 

[Scottyb123]

Glad to see Klink net one last night. Looking forward to see what he can bring with a full season ahead.

 

[PHX FireBirds18]

Don't think anyone would disagree here that Yandle might be the worst defender out of all our D. That said. He's by far the closest thing we have to a game breaker, and he does it from the backend. His decision making has become somewhat questionable at times the last couple years but I think that it does come from the lack of talent we've had on this team recently. When Whitney first came that's when he had his breakout year. Hopefully with the arrival of Ribeiro. Yandle can start using his speed more and being less of the quarterback. Progression from Boedker, and a healthy overachieving year from Doan would be awesome.

 

[Sinurgy]

Don't think anyone would disagree here that Yandle might be the worst defender out of all our D.

Well technically no because you used the word "might". I do know that if they were in a crucial situation where they needed D I would choose Yandle over Stone, Schlemko and obviously Rundblad.

Here's how I see it right now...

Defense: OEL > Z > Rusty > Morris > Yandle > Stone > Schlemko > Rundblad
Offense: Yandle > OEL > Rundblad > Morris > Schlemko > Stone > Z > Rusty

My rankings above are based on overall ability. However if I was worried about defending a speedy team, I would put Yandle ahead or Rusty and Morris while in terms of say the penalty kill, I may actually drop him below Stone. It's all situational and thankfully Tippet tries to play them accordingly.

If you score the rankings above the results are...

OEL - 15pts
Yandle - 12pts
Morris - 10pts
Z - 9pts
Rusty - 7pts
Rundblad - 7pts
Stone - 6pts
Schlemko - 6pts

I think it's interesting where Rusty and Rundblad end up. They are not higher because they are primarily one dimensional but they are not at the very bottom because they are still strong at that one dimension.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

Well technically no because you used the word "might". I do know that if they were in a crucial situation where they needed D I would choose Yandle over Stone, Schlemko and obviously Rundblad.

Here's how I see it right now...

Defense: OEL > Z > Rusty > Morris > Yandle > Stone > Schlemko > Rundblad
Offense: Yandle > OEL > Rundblad > Morris > Schlemko > Stone > Z > Rusty

My rankings above are based on overall ability. However if I was worried about defending a speedy team, I would put Yandle ahead or Rusty and Morris while in terms of say the penalty kill, I may actually drop him below Stone. It's all situational and thankfully Tippet tries to play them accordingly.

If you score the rankings above the results are...

OEL - 15pts
Yandle - 12pts
Morris - 10pts
Z - 9pts
Rusty - 7pts
Rundblad - 7pts
Stone - 6pts
Schlemko - 6pts

I think it's interesting where Rusty and Rundblad end up. They are not higher because they are primarily one dimensional but they are not at the very bottom because they are still strong at that one dimension.

I'd move Stone ahead of Demo and Schlemko...easily over them.

 

[PhoPhan]

Well technically no because you used the word "might". I do know that if they were in a crucial situation where they needed D I would choose Yandle over Stone, Schlemko and obviously Rundblad.

Here's how I see it right now...

Defense: OEL > Z > Rusty > Morris > Yandle > Stone > Schlemko > Rundblad
Offense: Yandle > OEL > Rundblad > Morris > Schlemko > Stone > Z > Rusty

My rankings above are based on overall ability. However if I was worried about defending a speedy team, I would put Yandle ahead or Rusty and Morris while in terms of say the penalty kill, I may actually drop him below Stone. It's all situational and thankfully Tippet tries to play them accordingly.

If you score the rankings above the results are...

OEL - 15pts
Yandle - 12pts
Morris - 10pts
Z - 9pts
Rusty - 7pts
Rundblad - 7pts
Stone - 6pts
Schlemko - 6pts

I think it's interesting where Rusty and Rundblad end up. They are not higher because they are primarily one dimensional but they are not at the very bottom because they are still strong at that one dimension.

Strictly on defense, I'd say Yandle has only Rundblad beat. Offensively, he's the best on the team, but both Rundblad and OEL could pass him, and it could happen soon.

 

[IPreferPi]

Strictly on defense, I'd say Yandle has only Rundblad beat. Offensively, he's the best on the team, but both Rundblad and OEL could pass him, and it could happen soon.

Rundblad's passing and vision may eventually exceed Yandle's, but that's only half of Yandle's offensive game: the other half is his elite mobility. I'd say Rundblad is barely average in that regard. As far OEL, he is definitely the smoothest skater on the team and probably top 10 in the league among d-men when it comes to overall agility and edgework, but even then, Yandle is still noticeably quicker/faster than him IMO.

 

[SniperHF]

..

Defense: OEL > Z > Rusty > Morris > Yandle > Stone > Schlemko > Rundblad

I think you are selling Schlemko short as a defensive D quite a bit. He was quite heavily relied upon on the shutdown pair before Z was brought back and did well. I think he's 4th on that list pretty easily.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Well technically no because you used the word "might". I do know that if they were in a crucial situation where they needed D I would choose Yandle over Stone, Schlemko and obviously Rundblad.

Here's how I see it right now...

Defense: OEL > Z > Rusty > Morris > Yandle > Stone > Schlemko > Rundblad
Offense: Yandle > OEL > Rundblad > Morris > Schlemko > Stone > Z > Rusty

My rankings above are based on overall ability. However if I was worried about defending a speedy team, I would put Yandle ahead or Rusty and Morris while in terms of say the penalty kill, I may actually drop him below Stone. It's all situational and thankfully Tippet tries to play them accordingly.

If you score the rankings above the results are...

OEL - 15pts
Yandle - 12pts
Morris - 10pts
Z - 9pts
Rusty - 7pts
Rundblad - 7pts
Stone - 6pts
Schlemko - 6pts

I think it's interesting where Rusty and Rundblad end up. They are not higher because they are primarily one dimensional but they are not at the very bottom because they are still strong at that one dimension.

By those rankings, Yandle would be on the PK quite often if any d-man went to the box. Yandle is usually the last d-man we have on the PK, so I would surmise that both Stone and Schlemko are ahead of Yandle there.

 

[Sciamachy]

I think you are selling Schlemko short as a defensive D quite a bit. He was quite heavily relied upon on the shutdown pair before Z was brought back and did well. I think he's 4th on that list pretty easily.

I agree with this completely. It amazes me how much Schlemko continues to get shortchanged by so many people around here.

 

[HerrDonut]

Put me down as another Schlemko supporter, although I'd like to note his offensive ability. Dude can actually puck-handle. Personally, I'd have him on that list about Mo. I like Mo's hard slapshot, but other than that... meh.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Just a quick recap of some thoughts from last night's game, mainly on the youth in the lineup:

- Domi certainly didn't hurt himself in terms of competing for a roster spot. I counted four total blocked shots on the PK, and adding the secondary assist on the shorthanded rush. Feel like he's still finding himself w control of the puck at times

- Szwarz played very nicely on the PK. Should be our top performer in Portland on the kill. Moved well, anticipated, and got in lanes.

- Samuellsson is big and lacks foot speed. Don't know if he got enough chances to park in front of the net. Had some good plays along the boards when he pitchforked the puck perpendicular to the boards to a teammate (at least 3 occasions I saw this)

- Lessio just moves all over the place. Really liked his gears. Would not have known he has an issue with his foot. Endearing player and fought hard along the boards as well.

- Murphy made some smart plays with the puck and appeared to perform well in transition. Noticeable at times, so I guess that is good that he blended in well, eve when getting some early PP time with the Klesla hit and subsequent time for Morris in the box.

That's about all I got - every other younger player didn't really stand out a ton. Most of the remaining team were vets on one-way deals.