#87 Sidney Crosby Milestone Thread - History will be made (MOST FACEOFFS WON IN NHL HISTORY 2025-01-07))

[Dessloch]

You couldn't drop by a Flyers or Caps message board in his early years without seeing "Secondary Sid" everywhere.

Could you drop by HFboards without seeing it during Sids early years?

 

[McOvechking]

I don't think anyone saw this coming. The longevity, the adaptation to the modern game, the consistency. There was a time mostly everyone thought his career was over due to the concussions. It's beyond impressive what he has done and how good a year he's had. Legend.

 

[Despote]

I really hope the Pens can make the playoffs. Sid is playing some of the best hockey he has in a long time, he's arguably been a top 5 forward in the league this year at even strength and would be on his way to a 100+ point season if the Pens PP could figure their shit out (yes, partially his responsibility).

Would be a shame if this effort went to waste.

 

[paracord]

Sidney Crosby should soon become only the 9th player in NHL history with 600 goals and 1000 assists, joining:

Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Jaromir Jagr
Steve Yzerman
Gordie Howe
Marcel Dionne
Mario Lemieux
Joe Sakic

He's sitting at 582 / 982 currently.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sidney Crosby should soon become only the 9th player in NHL history with 600 goals and 1000 assists, joining:

Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Jaromir Jagr
Steve Yzerman
Gordie Howe
Marcel Dionne
Mario Lemieux
Joe Sakic

He's sitting at 582 / 982 currently.

And he didn't have the benefit of boosting those totals by playing in the high scoring 80s/early 90s like a few names on that list.

 

[MadLuke]

There was a time mostly everyone thought his career was over due to the concussions.

Was their a contract taht the pens could not get an insurer for it ?

Around that time:

Sidney Crosby's new Penguins contract not insured against career-ending injury

The Penguins are not insured against a career-ending, concussion-related injury in Sidney Crosby's new contract. (Bruce Bennett/Getty Images) Sidney Crosby's

www.si.com

Him and Patrice Bergeron had quite the rest of their career versus most people expectation, after Savard and other devastating story of the style around that time... could have been more like what happened to Simon Gagné

 

[PaulD]

Guentzal goes out . Rust plays with Sid on Sunday. Scores 2 goals.
Rust goes out
Rackel plays with Sid on Tuesday. Scores two goals.
Guentzal is a soft perimeter playing winger who doesn't defend well.
Free agent trade bait is a no brainer

 

[Video Nasty]

And he didn't have the benefit of boosting those totals by playing in the high scoring 80s/early 90s like a few names on that list.

While it’s not 1:1, he did however have the benefit of playing his first two seasons in some of the most powerplay friendly environments (important to note that so did some of the players on that list).

It’s also worth noting that including this season, he has enjoyed close to 6 and above league scoring in his past 7 seasons. Some guys on that list played through their own low scoring years as well. Granted, mostly in their 30s anyways, but I think it’s fair to say that Crosby has been aided during his 30s and I think it has helped keep his PPG season streak alive and helped recover some of those goals and points that he would have lost if league scoring stayed where it was when he was missing chunks of time as it was.

I don’t think it’s all totally evened out, but it’s worth thinking about.

 

[authentic]

While it’s not 1:1, he did however have the benefit of playing his first two seasons in some of the most powerplay friendly environments (important to note that so did some of the players on that list).

It’s also worth noting that including this season, he has enjoyed close to 6 and above league scoring in his past 7 seasons. Some guys on that list played through their own low scoring years as well. Granted, mostly in their 30s anyways, but I think it’s fair to say that Crosby has been aided during his 30s and I think it has helped keep his PPG season streak alive and helped recover some of those goals and points that he would have lost if league scoring stayed where it was when he was missing chunks of time as it was.

I don’t think it’s all totally evened out, but it’s worth thinking about.

Then McDavid doesn’t have the legendary 150+ point and soon be 100+ assist seasons either. Have to give credit where it’s due.

 

[Video Nasty]

Then McDavid doesn’t have the legendary 150+ point and soon be 100+ assist seasons either. Have to give credit where it’s due.

Forget McDavid for a moment.

I’m just pointing out that things tend to wash in the end, or as much as they can. A guy like Yzerman who enjoyed really high scoring seasons during the first half of his career got dinged a bit from 1997-1998 through 2003-2004.

Even then, at an older age in a lower scoring era, he was still able to hover at close to a PPG until injuries took their final toll.

I’m actually not avoiding giving Crosby credit here. I’m saying that like many other players, some balance is struck when playing such a long career. It’s not perfect, it doesn't make up for everything, but I think it’s helpful for Crosby to soak up some more goals and points lately than he was able to during earlier years and that’s where some balance is at least struck.

 

[authentic]

Forget McDavid for a moment.

I’m just pointing out that things tend to wash in the end, or as much as they can. A guy like Yzerman who enjoyed really high scoring seasons during the first half of his career got dinged a bit from 1997-1998 through 2003-2004.

Even then, at an older age in a lower scoring era, he was still able to hover at close to a PPG until injuries took their final toll.

I’m actually not avoiding giving Crosby credit here. I’m saying that like many other players, some balance is struck when playing such a long career. It’s not perfect, it doesn't make up for everything, but I think it’s helpful for Crosby to soak up some more goals and points lately than he was able to during earlier years and that’s where some balance is at least struck.

You’re not wrong but you’re just picking and choosing when scoring levels matter I see

 

[Video Nasty]

You’re not wrong but you’re just picking and choosing when scoring levels matter I see

How so?

 

[mobilus]

And he didn't have the benefit of boosting those totals by playing in the high scoring 80s/early 90s like a few names on that list.

Or it can be argued a 21 team league didn't have the talent dilution that comes with 32 teams. That's another 220 players that wouldn't have had a place in the '80s. That's a lot of riff-raff for top players to skate through.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Or it can be argued a 21 team league didn't have the talent dilution that comes with 32 teams. That's another 220 players that wouldn't have had a place in the '80s. That's a lot of riff-raff for top players to skate through.

The overall depth is much much better now than when there was a 21 team league. There were still players in the league that could barely skate back then.

 

[mobilus]

The overall depth is much much better now than when there was a 21 team league. There were still players in the league that could barely skate back then.

There was nobody in the league who could barely skate back then. If you'd ever played shinny with a 35 year old ex-NHLer who spent a half season in the league as a fourth liner, you would never say a thing like that.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

There was nobody in the league who could barely skate back then. If you'd ever played shinny with a 35 year old ex-NHLer who spent a half season in the league as a fourth liner, you would never say a thing like that.

It's relative of course. There's a much smaller gap between good players and bad players in today's NHL than the 80s. The overall quality is significantly higher, despite more teams.

 

[Toby91ca]

Or it can be argued a 21 team league didn't have the talent dilution that comes with 32 teams. That's another 220 players that wouldn't have had a place in the '80s. That's a lot of riff-raff for top players to skate through.

You could try arguing that but would be totally wrong. The talent depth in the league right now is quite a bit better than the 80s. The 21 team league was ~90% Canadian. The best European players in the world were not playing in the NHL

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It’s also worth noting that including this season, he has enjoyed close to 6 and above league scoring in his past 7 seasons. Some guys on that list played through their own low scoring years as well. Granted, mostly in their 30s anyways, but I think it’s fair to say that Crosby has been aided during his 30s and I think it has helped keep his PPG season streak alive and helped recover some of those goals and points that he would have lost if league scoring stayed where it was when he was missing chunks of time as it was.

I don’t think it’s all totally evened out, but it’s worth thinking about.

He's also played these past 7 seasons well past his prime.

Playing in a high scoring environment in your 20s is a lot different than playing it when you're 30+ years old. Pretty much everyone on that list got to play their PRIME years in the 80's/early 90s.

If Crosby was 20-27 over the past 7 seasons and not 30-37, you might have a point with this paragraph above.

 

[wetcoast]

^^ Quite impressive considering all the games missed during his peak years.

By fastest they meant 4th fewest amount of games.

 

[wetcoast]

Or it can be argued a 21 team league didn't have the talent dilution that comes with 32 teams. That's another 220 players that wouldn't have had a place in the '80s. That's a lot of riff-raff for top players to skate through.

The 21 team NHL in 79-80 was quite different than at the end of the decade and scoring went down a bit.

As for today there are more than enough highly skilled "extra" players from Europe and the States today compared to back then.

There has been zero talent dilution.

There was nobody in the league who could barely skate back then. If you'd ever played shinny with a 35 year old ex-NHLer who spent a half season in the league as a fourth liner, you would never say a thing like that.

There were lots of guys back then who weren't good skaters or all around players that just showed up, your assertion is falling flat of the reality.

I watched a ton of hockey back then.

 

[mobilus]

You could try arguing that but would be totally wrong. The talent depth in the league right now is quite a bit better than the 80s. The 21 team league was ~90% Canadian. The best European players in the world were not playing in the NHL

There were Swedes and Finns over here in the 80s, those absent were the Russians and Czech/Slovaks (minus the Stastny brothers). What's odd is once the iron curtain fell and the doors opened to Eastern European players, league scoring went down.

This is traditionally attributed to the evolution of goaltenders' size and their equipment. That's part of it but ignored is that for every Bure, Fedorov and Jagr who came into the league, they were accompanied by a basin of players who would not have qualified for a NHL job back in the '80s. Maybe 4th line players of today are better than 4th liners from back then, but they aren't the equals to 1st/2nd liners of the '80s.

Leaving out Dionne and Howe as a truly different era, and Gretzky/Lemieux as freaks of nature; Sakic, Yzerman, Jagr and Messier played a fair piece of their careers through the dead puck era. That's just four players out of the last 40 years who managed to hit 600/1,000. All were supremely skilled. All had lengthy careers. All were healthy through most of it. All played for top end Cup winning teams with a strong cast. All had incredibly competitive personalities. You remove any one of these elements and a player falls short of those numbers. I believe Fedorov had everything here except the long haul competitive drive. Bure had knee injuries and no period playing on a dominant team. A lot of great talents fell short due any combination of these factors.

600/1,000 is such a rare thing. All planets must align for the right amount of time for the right player to have a chance to achieve that. I can tip my hat to Crosby without blowing off others as having gotten an easy pass. Nothing has ever been easy in this league.

 

[mobilus]

There were lots of guys back then who weren't good skaters or all around players that just showed up, your assertion is falling flat of the reality.

I watched a ton of hockey back then.

It's like everybody read the Klima quote from a few weeks ago and taken it as gospel that the league was full of bad skaters in the '80s. The guy was idle bragging because that's all he had to brag about. Klima was one of those speed freaks where his feet outranked his head in terms of talent. There's been a lot of players like that – Kapanen, Berzein, Yakupov, Daigle.

Klima was faster than Gretzky, look what it got him. Berezin was faster than Owen Nolan or Vincent Lecavalier, look what it got him. When a speed merchant's head matches their feet, then you get an Ovechkin or Kovalchuk or Messier, or Bure/Fedorov/Mogilny.

l don't care how much hockey you've watched, if you've been on the ice with anyone who's played even 10 minutes in the NHL, you'll understand how good a skater you have to been just to get into that league.

 

[jigglysquishy]

l don't care how much hockey you've watched, if you've been on the ice with anyone who's played even 10 minutes in the NHL, you'll understand how good a skater you have to been just to get into that league.

It's always a good reminder that the vast majority of the forum doesn't know how to skate and a very small percentage have ever played important hockey.

I've played beer league against 45 year old career minor leaguers. And they looked like McDavid out there.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

By fastest they meant 4th fewest amount of games.

I know -- he scored more points-per-game during his peak years, hence my comment.

 

[wetcoast]

It's like everybody read the Klima quote from a few weeks ago and taken it as gospel that the league was full of bad skaters in the '80s. The guy was idle bragging because that's all he had to brag about. Klima was one of those speed freaks where his feet outranked his head in terms of talent. There's been a lot of players like that – Kapanen, Berzein, Yakupov, Daigle.

Klima was faster than Gretzky, look what it got him. Berezin was faster than Owen Nolan or Vincent Lecavalier, look what it got him. When a speed merchant's head matches their feet, then you get an Ovechkin or Kovalchuk or Messier, or Bure/Fedorov/Mogilny.

l don't care how much hockey you've watched, if you've been on the ice with anyone who's played even 10 minutes in the NHL, you'll understand how good a skater you have to been just to get into that league.

Your original post implied that somehow because the NHL was a 21 team league that it was harder to score in and you are factually wrong there.

Subjectively the amount of elite and very good players that were non Canadian shifted from barely any in the start of the 70s, with a trickle and then grew hitting a sort of high point in the mid 90s and has dipped and risen since then at a much higher level than the period you are talking about.

Also your post above you talk about Messier and Yzerman playing in the dead puck era, sure when they were like 35 and 30.

As to the skating issue it's not just that its that everyone can skate and check now teams play structured defensive systems everyone blocks shots and fills lanes, watching in the 70s and 80s I know the difference in gameplay and makes me wonder if you do?