Post-Game Talk: 5 minutes of work doesn't equal a win, Jets lose in OT 2-1

[bumblebeeman]

I just want to point out, in the 2018 season there were a lot of posters here saying the Jets were playing worse than their record and that they would crash back to earth, up until like 30 games into the season. That never happened and they finished 2 points from the President's trophy. I'm not saying this team is nearly as good, but they are finding ways to win (Helle), and have shown some good stretches and I think they will find a way to get there more consistantly. I guess we'll see what happens.

Just going to enjoy the ride

I was not one of the "we need to fix the bottom 6" crowd -
But regardless, what do you think?

I still think it's an issue, though they have been playing well lately.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Lowry is also "the face off guy" and they won the game in Colorado when they started, so it's not simply a message.

Worst game I can remember seeing the team play in quite some time. The fact that they got a point is a miracle in and of itself, so I'm not going to bemoan OT choices or what have you, no need to get greedy.

They need to come out firing against some weaker opponents in the home stand here. At least 5 of 6 points. Otherwise their current record really doesn't mean much because it's not sustainable.

They were worse against LAK, by quite a bit. Helle was less good in that game and the goalie at the other end was much worse.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Florida under Maurice THRIVING with some of the best metrics in the league. Jets under the new coach a basement dweller. Maurice wasn't the problem with this group. Poorly constructed roster by the GM. They are not just losing but getting blown the f*** out of the building both tonight and in LA with only Helle keeping them in it.

PLD useless... can't generate anything at 5v5. LOL @ anyone calling him a 1C. I'll take 2011-2016 Little any day over him

As an outsider, this is what I saw last year: Maurice stressed playing faster all camp long and early in the season. After a while, they managed to do it for half a dozen games and actually looked good doing it.

Then they ran out of gas, started struggling and after a while PoMo said f*** it I'm out

I think he saw what is reality, this team just can't play a fast paced game consistently. Whether it's conditioning, players slowing the game down with turnovers, stubbornness of sticking to old habits or whatever, there's issues with the roster.

Then the GM hires a coach for this year that has spent the last couple seasons working with a somewhat similar team, instead of trying to fix the issues personnel-wise, accepting what they are and trying to maximize results playing better defensively.

Expect a lot more of the same as this last stretch, the good and the bad.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

It wasn’t much better for the first two periods in LA either.

It was worse.

While the result stinks given Helle’s effort, I still look to that blatant missed call on Barron that tied it up.

How this isn’t a black and white tripping call is beyond me.

5/6 is nice but man, the Jets were winning ugly this trip.

View attachment 601205

Yup. The trip is called, that goal doesn't happen. The trip doesn't happen, neither does the goal. Barron was playing great there, BTW.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think starting with Lowry was fine. Face offs are so important. But I do agree that Perfetti should have seen the ice in overtime. You want your smartest players out there.

OK, start your best FO man. Put him out there with Perfetti just to win the FO and then get off.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

I think you have 2 top 6 RWs right now who aren't Top 6. You got Dubois who looks like he's somewhat uninterested. Scheif has looked good tho generally. KFC is struggling... nik is hurt.

But I do think this team needs some help still. Wheels Dubois prob should go and maybe pionk too. Top 6 needs a real shake up.

Pionk to Vancouver for Horvat (signed)

Dubois to Boston for Pastrnak just because

Wheeler mysteriously go missing

Perfect scheif pastA
Connor Horvat Ehlers

LFG

 

[LowLefty]

I'm not arguing against any of that. I like the pressure schemes we apply. I also haven't seen a lack of work ethic from our top 6 in buying in.

I have -
Maybe not all but some - and mainly in our dzone.
Which line gets bottled up in their end more than the rest?
Why do you think that is happening?

IMO, it's because they leave the d to do most of the work - and then wonder why they don't see those crisp outlet passing coming their way. You wear out the D and they struggle with outlets - and when dead tired after another extended shift in your end, they start chipping it out - usually up the walls. And then we blame them for poor defensive execution.

There is no consistency in how our top forwards play - we've seen them play with that energy all over the ice and we've seen them not. It's not the type of game these guys are used to playing and we knew if was going to take some time - and it is.

There are a couple of exceptions in the top 6 - but unless they all get it and apply, it won't work.

 

[heretik27]

I was curious since some people mentioned Scheifele was ridden into the ground in OT so I checked the numbers.

Scheifele had 3 shifts in OT, 1:13 mins, 0:51 mins, and 0:54 mins. A full minute more than Eichel played.
Eichel's TOI, who also had 3 shifts was on the ice to start for 1:21 mins, 0:16 mins, and 0:18 mins.

So yeah, fresh legs matter and Scheifele got burned because he was completely gassed by the time Eichel made his move.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Am I the only one who noticed Jets shots not being counted?
I counted 5. 2 were originally counted and then later removed. I'm not talking about those that were near the pipes that may have turned out to not have been on the net, or the ones that were blocked even though the goalies movements made it look like he stopped them. I'm talking about pretty clear SOG.

Another 5 SOG wouldn't change the fact that Jets were badly outplayed and out shot, but it looked like a homer shot count to me.

 

[surixon]

I have -
Maybe not all but some - and mainly in our dzone.
Which line gets bottled up in their end more than the rest?
Why do you think that is happening?

IMO, it's because they leave the d to do most of the work - and then wonder why they don't see those crisp outlet passing coming their way. You wear out the D and they struggle with outlets - and when dead tired after another extended shift in your end, they start chipping it out - usually up the walls. And then we blame them for poor defensive execution.

There is no consistency in how our top forwards play - we've seen them play with that energy all over the ice and we've seen them not. It's not the type of game these guys are used to playing and we knew if was going to take some time - and it is.

There are a couple of exceptions in the top 6 - but unless they all get it and apply, it won't work.

I'd say the dzone issues last night were mostly on Pionk. First five alarm shift Pionk has a horrible gap and allows Smith to walk right in and that leads to the group scrambling to get back and 4 grade A chances later they get it out.

Second bad shift with the top line, team is attacking through the nz and Pionk gets stripped of the puck with only one dmen back and Vegas goes down with an odd man chance and gets extended zone time amd a bucket more of chances. This is aided by Wheeler just firing a no look breakout pass right back to the other team. Those two shifts were largely attributable to that lines awful metrics.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

That game is 10-0 if not for Hellebuyck.
Getting a point is a total bonus.

Nope.
It would have been 10-1. Jets had 1 goal and it was legit.

 

[surixon]

Am I the only one who noticed Jets shots not being counted?
I counted 5. 2 were originally counted and then later removed. I'm not talking about those that were near the pipes that may have turned out to not have been on the net, or the ones that were blocked even thought the goalies movements made it look like he stopped them. I'm talking about pretty clear SOG.

Another 5 SOG wouldn't change the fact that Jets were badly outplayed and out shot, but it looked like a homer shot count to me.

I pointed that out in the GDT in the second period. They also padded Vegas with a few extra grade A chances on some of those scrums around the net then they actually got. But it still doesn't change the fact that we got dominated.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Need to start playing better, but glad Vezina Helle is back so far this year. Bank these points and try to move forward.

Haven't seen the makings of a Bowness team yet really, this team is eerily similar to all the past versions of the Jets. Maybe the players just are who they are.

Or one coach is a lot like another.

I get that the Jets played like shit but so far our bottom 6 has been light years better than probably the last 5 years. With Ehlers i think we have a decent top 6 and they will eventually start scoring more. Helly gets paid close to 7 million a season to stop the puck so if we have no legs because we have played 3 games in 4 nights all on the road and Helly has to bail them out once in a while i'm ok with that.

That's OK for last nights game. 3 in 4 for the 2nd time already in the first 9 games. But what about the 2 previous games that they managed to win in spite of themselves? They were not won on the backs of the goalies either, BTW.

 

[LowLefty]

I'd say the dzone issues last night were mostly on Pionk. First five alarm shift Pionk has a horrible gap and allows Smith to walk right in and that leads to the group scrambling to get back and 4 grade A chances later they get it out.

Second bad shift with the top line, team is attacking through the nz and Pionk gets stripped of the puck with only one dmen back and Vegas goes down with an odd man chance and gets extended zone time amd a bucket more of chances. This is aided by Wheeler just firing a no look breakout pass right back to the other team. Those two shifts were largely attributable to that lines awful metrics.

Yup - there were turnovers caused by an aggressive Vegas team that pressures the puck carriers.
I like the fact that you bring this up because it is exactly what I am talking about - an aggressive team that gives you nothing vs a team that doesn't have that part of the game entrenched (yet).

But the bottom 6 get it - even though they may not have the offensive skill, they play hard at both ends and if they continue to play like that, you'll likely see more goals for and less against (for this group). They keep it simple. Not saying our top lines need to play that exact game - but they need to borrow that aggressive style from these guys. There's more to it than that but I believe that is what the coaching staff are trying to instill first.
Makes sense to me.

 

[Buffdog]

I'm not arguing against any of that. I like the pressure schemes we apply. I also haven't seen a lack of work ethic from our top 6 in buying in.

What we have seen so far is that when we get the puck out cleanly the top 6 is much more able to play that way successfully. When they get bogged down into constant defensive battles and when the puck keeps getting turned over exiting our zone that is when they get into trouble and get hemmed in.

Last night the defense constantly played the puck up the boards into contested areas instead of taking a look and putting the puck on an open stick and getting out cleanly. This bogged the top 6 down and prevented them gaining speed leaving the zone. This wasn't just a defenseman issue as our forwards now seem to be taught to chip it out and hope one of our other forwards is able to skate onto it. All to often though that results in a turnover and it's right back in.

So to me it isn't a question of effort, it's a question of fixing the breakouts and that will lead to improvements in all the other areas.

It seems like the team is picking up on the defensive side of the new systems more quickly than what they're trying to do with the puck. Who knows how much of it has even been gone over in practice.

I notice that in the offensive zone many times someone will rim the puck hard all the way around to the other side and there's no support there (resulting in turnovers)

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Unfortunately there's a certain element on this board that are never ever happy and seem to enjoy being miserable.

Some of the same people only now remember 2017/18 with fondness and claim that was the one enjoyable season, but my recollection was that this place was a cesspool of negativity even worse than right now up until about February 2018. It got so bad that I started the first positivity thread (by accident because a guy I had blocked did the GDT so I thought there was none and started my own) and ended up just staying in there all the time.

Which is all just to say this is nothing new and just the dangers of posting here. I don't like blocking people but it does help with one's enjoyment. If some people can only "enjoy" this entertainment by being angry all the time then its better they just do that without my involvement. I prefer to enjoy hockey as an "ignorant casual fan" who is too stupid to allow analytics to ruin his enjoyment of the sport.

That said, to this game in particular, not the strongest effort, but I was glad to see 3rd and 4th line still playing strong and I think that's a piece of how we skated away with 1 point (secondary to Helle's stellar play of course). If our 3rd and 4th were getting cratered as well, I don't think even Helle could have saved the Jets.

Also not on board with the Arniel hate for starting Lowry and Apples in OT. They were actually among the few playing decent and it wasn't them that got scored on in OT.

I agree with a lot of this as it applies to this particular game. But you have to take the good with the bad as far as this board is concerned. The posters who seem to you to never be happy are, for the most part, happy when the team plays well and unhappy when they keep seeing the same bad play year after year. That is not unreasonable.

I'm more upset with Arniel playing Scheif and Wheeler for so much of the OT than I am with him starting Lowry and Appleton.

There were some positives in that game. The bottom 6, Samberg, DeMelo, Perfetti and Helle of course.

 

[The Blue Baron]

There's a lot of people on the ledge when I looked out this morning

Christ, we're 5-3-1 record and 2nd in the Central .............

Yes, BUT are you watching the games? lol
Maybe the players know it is Halloween and they are scaring the crap outta there fans!
That kinda play is no where near sustainable.

 

[surixon]

Yup - there were turnovers caused by an aggressive Vegas team that pressures the puck carriers.
I like the fact that you bring this up because it is exactly what I am talking about - an aggressive team that gives you nothing vs a team that doesn't have that part of the game entrenched (yet).

But the bottom 6 get it - even though they may not have the offensive skill, they play hard at both ends and if they continue to play like that, you'll likely see more goals for and less against (for this group). They keep it simple. Not saying our top lines need to play that exact game - but they need to borrow that aggressive style from these guys. There's more to it than that but I believe that is what the coaching staff are trying to instill first.
Makes sense to me.

I don't disagree with playing hard. I would just like to see some more thought put into how it's channeled.

Yeah the bottom 6 gets it because it's all those players except probably Gagner's natural play style and it was reinforced by brining in players who's games support the way they play. I'm not surprised they are more quick to pick up on it.

The issue is our top 6 is more finesse based so it is going to take more time there and even then they need to be helped with a more robust breakout and break in scheme. You don't need to pressure and grind as much whe you have the puck and imo we have done a poor job managing the puck.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm really liking our bottom 6 so far. Once we get Fly back and Connor starts scoring I think we'll have a pretty well balanced forward group

Yes - but ..........
You can't count on being healthy all of the time. When Ehlers gets back, someone else will go down. We need better depth if we can't handle 1 injury in the top 6. And where will we be if Morrissey or DeMelo get hurt? Or Helle, Scheifele, Dubois?

But it is nice to have a bottom 6 that can hold their own. That, at least, is progress.

 

[The Blue Baron]

I get that the Jets played like shit but so far our bottom 6 has been light years better than probably the last 5 years. With Ehlers i think we have a decent top 6 and they will eventually start scoring more. Helly gets paid close to 7 million a season to stop the puck so if we have no legs because we have played 3 games in 4 nights all on the road and Helly has to bail them out once in a while i'm ok with that.

Ok well stated. I can live with this explanation, for now.

 

[surixon]

It seems like the team is picking up on the defensive side of the new systems more quickly than what they're trying to do with the puck. Who knows how much of it has even been gone over in practice.

I notice that in the offensive zone many times someone will rim the puck hard all the way around to the other side and there's no support there (resulting in turnovers)

Yeah to be fair I think they've had one, maybe two practices the last two weeks.

Over the next two weeks our games are pretty spread out and we should have time for a good 4 or 5 practices.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

With the way the 4th line is playing who do you take out when Ehlers is ready to go, atm is has to be Apples but I have a feeling it wont be

Has to be either Maeno or Flowbee. I don't know which I would sit. I've liked both.

 

[Easternbull]

Even though his game against Vegas was so so, Jets need to do whatever thry can to hang onto Dubois.

What do you do when if he leaves and Scheiff walks? Perfetti will be fantastic IMHO but is he a center?

Just dont put wWeeler and 55 on the same line..

 

[Jet]

Appleton is outmatched in the top 6. He needs less minutes and less competition. I'd swap him and Gagner right now and try that for a game or two.

@Jet Sorry if my negativity is affecting your ability to enjoy the game. I'm trying to be objectively balanced and fair. I think I've earned that right.

I wouldn't say you are an offender. I don't mind criticism, hell this team has earned it.

Sometimes a critical post from someone who is trying to be objective triggers me, and it's not their fault, that's on me

Thriving? Both teams are 5-3-1, with the exact same goal differential.

Of Florida's first 9 games, 7 have been against teams that missed the playoffs last year. Their 5 wins have been against the Isles (twice), Sens, Sabres, and Flyers. This is the team that won the President's Trophy last year with 122 points.

In contrast, 5 of the Jets first 9 games have been against teams that made the playoffs last year. And we've won 3 of them (St. Louis, NYR, and cup champs Colorado).

It will take some time for our new systems to click. Not to mention we haven't had our coach for most of the season, Ehlers has been out, and KFC has been snakebitten.

Plenty more season to see how those plays out.

Too logical.

 

[Jet]

Am I the only one who noticed Jets shots not being counted?
I counted 5. 2 were originally counted and then later removed. I'm not talking about those that were near the pipes that may have turned out to not have been on the net, or the ones that were blocked even thought the goalies movements made it look like he stopped them. I'm talking about pretty clear SOG.

Another 5 SOG wouldn't change the fact that Jets were badly outplayed and out shot, but it looked like a homer shot count to me.

There is a huge homerism when it comes to shot tallies - I've really noticed it this year. They should really be using a computer to track that.

The argument is that if the puck is headed towards the net but is projected to miss it or hit the bar, it's not a shot even if the goalie saves it. I think that gives the homer shot counters all the leeway they need.

Just another in a long list of failures when it comes to NHL officiating