Proposal: 3 way potential

[DFC]

Clicked this thread for the jokes.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

 

[seanlinden]

I'm not sure how you can't see what a terrible offer it is. You would think that the lack of Blues fans flocking here to jump at your trade would give you a hint.

How can you not see that they are screwing themselves? You're not even offering the a competent roster player. You want them to take all the risks while Toronto gets all the rewards.

Toronto gets a #1 elite RHD, the rarest position in the NHL outside of 1C.

The Blues get:
A good not great defenseman prospect, a couple late picks that have a low probability of turning into a regular NHL player. A cap dump (Zaitsev) and they have to retain salary. In effect by dumping Zaitsev on them with the $2M retention you want, they are basically killing $6.5M cap space for a prospect.

Does seeing the offer in actual terms help you see how bad it is?

Zaitsev is a more than competent roster player.... but as I've mentioned numerous times, the deal is really about getting them a haul of futures and avoiding giving Pietrangelo a contract that they may regret.

The Blues don't do the of a deal with the intent of rebounding next season. They don't trade Pietrangelo for futures period if they have intent on rebounding next season. Given that, the retention doesn't even really matter for them.

They do this deal if they are going to take a 3-4 year outlook, and want to rapidly restock their farm system to a much greater extent than offloading Bouwmeester, Gunnarsson and Maroon for picks at the deadline -- because those guys aren't going to return 1st round picks or top prospects.

 

[Majorityof1]

A better 3-way trade:

To Carolina:
William Nylander

To St. Louis:
One of Liljegren/Sandin
Toronto 1st Round Pick
Carolina 2nd Round Pick
Nikita Zaitsev
2020 Toronto 2nd that becomes a 1st if the Leafs win the cup in the next 2 years.

To Toronto:
Brett Pesce, Alex Pietrangelo ($2m retained), Warren Foegele

Canes get Nylander without giving up substantial roster assets or futures. Blues get a massive haul of futures for a defenceman that they may not wish to resign, plus a top 4 RHD backfill that may allow them to be respectable through a rebuild. Leafs get 3 pieces that almost perfectly satisfy what they need to be cup contenders, and solve their cap crunch for next year; without completely gutting their development system.

TFW other fanbases get in on the fun of trying to shove Zaitsev down your throat.

If Zaitsev is a #4 Dman on a reasonable contract or whatever other bull shit you want to say...why don't you send Pesce and Nylander our way and take all that other garbage? Otherwise, leave us out of it.

 

[seanlinden]

TFW other fanbases get in on the fun of trying to shove Zaitsev down your throat.

If Zaitsev is a #4 Dman on a reasonable contract or whatever other bull **** you want to say...why don't you send Pesce and Nylander our way and take all that other garbage? Otherwise, leave us out of it.

Well... three reasons....

#1 -- the way we get Pesce is by Nylander ending up with the Canes.

#2 -- Pesce is better than Zaitsev, and on a more favourable contract (especially for the to-be-cap-strapped Leafs). The Leafs are paying a premium to get Pietrangelo, and do the Zaitsev-Pesce upgrade.

#3 -- The deal is based on the notion that Carolina wants to make an immediate improvement, without mortgaging the future, that St. Louis is looking to cash out on Pietrangelo with a haul of prospects & picks, and that Toronto is prepared to make a substantial investment of prospects/picks to try and win a cup in the next year or two.

Otherwise, they could probably just do the Nylander-Pietrangelo swap, and save themselves their 1st, future 1st/2nd, and Liljegren/Sandin.

 

[Majorityof1]

Well... two reasons....

#1 -- the way we get Pesce is by Nylander ending up with the Canes.

#2 -- Pesce is better than Zaitsev, and on a more favourable contract (especially for the to-be-cap-strapped Leafs). The Leafs are paying a premium to get Pietrangelo, and do the Zaitsev-Pesce upgrade.

Otherwise, they could probably just do the Nylander-Pietrangelo swap, and save themselves their 1st, future 1st/2nd, and Liljegren/Sandin.

So in other words -

#1 - Nylander is a good player
#2 - Pesce is a good player
#3 (implicit) - Pietrangelo is a good player
#4 (implicit) - The rest combined is no where near as valuable as the 3 above pieces

You are justifying why the other teams do this, but not the Blues. k Thanks. Blues say No.

Rule of thumb going forward, if your proposal to the blues has Zaitsev in it, don't bother. If it is an EA-sports-esque trade where you max out the slots with low value items to equal one star player, don't bother -Sincerely, every Blues fan on HF Board

 

[Whitsmith803]

Blues
Marner, Mitchell
Brown, Connor
Sandin, Rasmus
Zacha, Pavel
Severson, Damon

Leafs
Pietrangelo, Alex Extends (6/6.5m)
Schwartz, Jaden

New Jersey
Steen, Alexander
Sanford, Zachary
Zaitsev, Nikita

 

[seanlinden]

So in other words -

#1 - Nylander is a good player
#2 - Pesce is a good player
#3 (implicit) - Pietrangelo is a good player
#4 (implicit) - The rest combined is no where near as valuable as the 3 above pieces

You are justifying why the other teams do this, but not the Blues. k Thanks. Blues say No.

Rule of thumb going forward, if your proposal to the blues has Zaitsev in it, don't bother. If it is an EA-sports-esque trade where you max out the slots with low value items to equal one star player, don't bother -Sincerely, every Blues fan on HF Board

Not at all.

Nylander is a good young player with upside and cost control
Pesce is a good young player with upside and cost control
Pietrangelo is a good veteran player, with excellent immediate cost control, but long term risk.
Zaitsev is a decent middle-aged player, with probably a little upside remaining, and cost control.
Liljegren/Sandin are good young defensive prospects
Picks are just that, 1st/2nd rounders.

If it makes you feel any better, take out Zaitsev, include a 3rd round pick from Toronto, and they'll ship Zaitsev elsewhere to clear the requisite cap space.


The blues would do this because their draft pick pool has been depleted, they're a team filled with 27-28 year old players and are one of the worst teams in the league.

Pietrangelo is up for a new contract (roughly 7-8 years at $8-9m) which will require trade protection and expansion draft protection (meaning the Blues will lose one of Dunn/Edmunson/Parayko); which they may decide they don't want to sign.... so they trade him, get a haul of young assets to immediately replenish their pool. They go towards building around a new core, using the remnants (ROR, Schenn, Schwartz & Tarasenko) as the veterans of the group; and a D built around Parayko, Edmunson, Dunn and Liljegren/Sandin.

 

[Snowman]

Zaitsev is a more than competent roster player.... but as I've mentioned numerous times, the deal is really about getting them a haul of futures and avoiding giving Pietrangelo a contract that they may regret.

The Blues don't do the of a deal with the intent of rebounding next season. They don't trade Pietrangelo for futures period if they have intent on rebounding next season. Given that, the retention doesn't even really matter for them.

They do this deal if they are going to take a 3-4 year outlook, and want to rapidly restock their farm system to a much greater extent than offloading Bouwmeester, Gunnarsson and Maroon for picks at the deadline -- because those guys aren't going to return 1st round picks or top prospects.

So, you're saying in a cap world, losing cap space isn't important... okay.

In the first year, the Blues are doing you a $6.5M dollar favour, just because. Then, for the next 5 years they are again killing $4.5M of cap space with Zaitsev's contract, just because. For a rebuilding/retooling team, you don't think throwing away $4.5M of cap space matters?

Anyways, for that kind of offer the Blues would just be better off holding onto AP until next year's deadline when they'll easily be able to get the same return you're offering. Plus they'd have the added bonus of keeping AP for another year and not throwing away $4.5M cap space for 5 years just to help the Leafs out without compensation.

I guess we'll just keep track of all the Blues fans that jump at your generous offer.

 

[tgo0]

Not at all.

Nylander is a good young player with upside and cost control
Pesce is a good young player with upside and cost control
Pietrangelo is a good veteran player, with excellent immediate cost control, but long term risk.
Zaitsev is a decent middle-aged player, with probably a little upside remaining, and cost control.
Liljegren/Sandin are good young defensive prospects
Picks are just that, 1st/2nd rounders.

If it makes you feel any better, take out Zaitsev, include a 3rd round pick from Toronto, and they'll ship Zaitsev elsewhere to clear the requisite cap space.


The blues would do this because their draft pick pool has been depleted, they're a team filled with 27-28 year old players and are one of the worst teams in the league.

Pietrangelo is up for a new contract (roughly 7-8 years at $8-9m) which will require trade protection and expansion draft protection (meaning the Blues will lose one of Dunn/Edmunson/Parayko); which they may decide they don't want to sign.... so they trade him, get a haul of young assets to immediately replenish their pool. They go towards building around a new core, using the remnants (ROR, Schenn, Schwartz & Tarasenko) as the veterans of the group; and a D built around Parayko, Edmunson, Dunn and Liljegren/Sandin.

I don't think Zaitsev's "cost control" is a positive. His deal is just a known cost at an inflated price. It would be like calling Lucic/Eriksson/Ladd "cost controlled" even though their deals are net negatives.

Regardless of that I don't see how this would be the winning bid if Pietrangelo were put on the market. If Nylander was included then I could see STL having interest.

 

[seanlinden]

So, you're saying in a cap world, losing cap space isn't important... okay.

In the first year, the Blues are doing you a $6.5M dollar favour, just because. Then, for the next 5 years they are again killing $4.5M of cap space with Zaitsev's contract, just because. For a rebuilding/retooling team, you don't think throwing away $4.5M of cap space matters?

Anyways, for that kind of offer the Blues would just be better holding onto AP until next year's deadline when they'll easily be able to get the same return you're offering. Plus they'd have the added bonus of keeping AP for another year and not throwing away $4.5M cap space for 5 years just to help the Leafs out without compensation.

I guess we'll just keep track of all the Blues fans that jump at your generous offer.

Losing cap space, for 1 year, in a year that is a rebuilding one, is not all that imporant.

There's no "favours" here -- only paying for players to help you win hockey games. Paying Zaitsev $4.5m isn't throwing money away, it's paying a solid #4 RHD what he's worth, through his prime, simple as that. Like I mentioned to the other poster, don't like Zaitsev? fine, take him out and include a 3rd round pick from the Leafs -- they'll easily find another team to replenish that 3rd and clear the cap space that way.

Nobody is likely to offer their top prospect, a 1st round pick, a mid 2nd, and a conditional 1st/2nd to get Alex Pietrangelo for 3 months at the deadline...nevermind the fact that those picks would all be one year later, meaning a pushback in the blues rebuild.

 

[seanlinden]

I don't think Zaitsev's "cost control" is a positive. His deal is just a known cost at an inflated price. It would be like calling Lucic/Eriksson/Ladd "cost controlled" even though their deals are net negatives.

Regardless of that I don't see how this would be the winning bid if Pietrangelo were put on the market. If Nylander was included then I could see STL having interest.

Nothing "inflated" or "negative" about Zaitsev's deal -- it's FMV for a #4 defenceman, and given that the cap continues to rise and that he's only 27 with limited NHL experience, his cost control would be viewed as a (slight) positive.

If the Leafs decided he was on the outs for cap reasons this summer (practically speaking, they can't do it because they have nobody to replace him), he'd easily fetch a mid-round pick.

WRT Nylander, straight up is also something that should be considered.

It's not the sledge hammer of completely revamping Toronto's blueline in one shot, and does limit what they can do to resolve the rest of the issues (Kapanen, Johnsson, Brown would now all be needed), but they would obviously have kept their picks and prospects to use as currency elsewhere.

 

[tony d]

I think Pietrangelo would help solve the Leafs woes on defense. Not sure Panarin would want to sign long-term with the Blues though.

 

[Snowman]

Losing cap space, for 1 year, in a year that is a rebuilding one, is not all that imporant.

There's no "favours" here -- only paying for players to help you win hockey games. Paying Zaitsev $4.5m isn't throwing money away, it's paying a solid #4 RHD what he's worth, through his prime, simple as that. Like I mentioned to the other poster, don't like Zaitsev? fine, take him out and include a 3rd round pick from the Leafs -- they'll easily find another team to replenish that 3rd and clear the cap space that way.

Nobody is likely to offer their top prospect, a 1st round pick, a mid 2nd, and a conditional 1st/2nd to get Alex Pietrangelo for 3 months at the deadline...nevermind the fact that those picks would all be one year later, meaning a pushback in the blues rebuild.

It's obvious you don't want to admit that the deal you're offering is a homerun for the Leafs and a terrible return for the Blues even though a half dozen different posters have told you so. There's really not much else to discuss as you are not willing to consider what the Blues need in the least. The only thing you're concerned with is proposing homerun deals for the Leafs.

 

[seanlinden]

It's obvious you don't want to admit that the deal you're offering is a homerun for the Leafs and a terrible return for the Blues even though a half dozen different posters have told you so. There's really not much else to discuss as you are not willing to consider what the Blues need in the least. The only thing you're concerned with is proposing homerun deals for the Leafs.

Within the context of trying to win a cup in the next 2 years, it is an absolute home run -- as it solves by far the largest areas of concern.

It's taking a team that is pretty stacked, but with glaring holes, and filling those glaring holes.

However, if they don't win a cup, that deal will look very rough in 2 years when after trading Liljegren, Nylander, their 1st in 19, their 2nd in 21 and Zaitsev to be left with Pesce and maybe Pietrangelo on a risky long term deal.

WRT not admitting things -- I'll ask you again, who's tabling a better futures oriented offer? And what are they giving up?

 

[67Blues]

With the title of the thread, I came in expecting to see some serious screwing, and in a way, I'm both disappointed, and also satisfied with my expectations.

 

[tgo0]

Nothing "inflated" or "negative" about Zaitsev's deal -- it's FMV for a #4 defenceman, and given that the cap continues to rise and that he's only 27 with limited NHL experience, his cost control would be viewed as a (slight) positive.

If the Leafs decided he was on the outs for cap reasons this summer (practically speaking, they can't do it because they have nobody to replace him), he'd easily fetch a mid-round pick.

Assuming everything you say is true, which everyone in this thread has disagreed with, and that Zaitsev is a #4 Dman and that his contract is a "(slight) positive" then why is he only fetching a mid-round pick? Can you give examples of other 2nd pairing D being traded for only mid round picks? That's what healthy scratch/depth dmen return.

Joe Morrow got a 4th
Mike Reilly got a 5th (1 year out)
Ian Cole got a 3rd (2 years out)
Brandon Davidson got a 3rd (1 year out)
Nick Holden got a 3rd
Kempny got a 3rd

Even if a team needs to move a guy because of the cap they generally don't dump top 4 talent for 10 cents on the dollar because there are always teams in need of top 4 talent and there would be enough teams bidding to drive the price to at least a fair value.

 

[seanlinden]

Assuming everything you say is true, which everyone in this thread has disagreed with, and that Zaitsev is a #4 Dman and that his contract is a "(slight) positive" then why is he only fetching a mid-round pick? Can you give examples of other 2nd pairing D being traded for only mid round picks? That's what healthy scratch/depth dmen return.

Joe Morrow got a 4th
Mike Reilly got a 5th (1 year out)
Ian Cole got a 3rd (2 years out)
Brandon Davidson got a 3rd (1 year out)
Nick Holden got a 3rd
Kempny got a 3rd

Even if a team needs to move a guy because of the cap they generally don't dump top 4 talent for 10 cents on the dollar because there are always teams in need of top 4 talent and there would be enough teams bidding to drive the price to at least a fair value.

Because his positive value is generally small.

When teams need to dump players because of cap, they usually go towards forwards because defenceman are harder to find -- however in Toronto's case, assuming they had Rielly, Pietrangelo, and Pesce, Zaitsev would be the odd man out.

If we're working with typical, typically Zaitsev would be part of the package for Pietrangelo so that they're not losing a top defenceman outright, and they're getting a #4 guy to eat some of the minutes.

If somebody is willing to pony up more, then great, do that.

 

[Starat327]

With the title of the thread, I came in expecting to see some serious screwing, and in a way, I'm both disappointed, and also satisfied with my expectations.

The problem is, the blues are still the front of the train on this one..

 

[tgo0]

Because his positive value is generally small.

When teams need to dump players because of cap, they usually go towards forwards because defenceman are harder to find -- however in Toronto's case, assuming they had Rielly, Pietrangelo, and Pesce, Zaitsev would be the odd man out.

If we're working with typical, typically Zaitsev would be part of the package for Pietrangelo so that they're not losing a top defenceman outright, and they're getting a #4 guy to eat some of the minutes.

If somebody is willing to pony up more, then great, do that.

When a Blues fan rebuffed the inclusion of Zaitsev you told him to replace him with a 3rd, which is the value of depth dmen who are in the list included in my above post. If he's worth more then why aren't you adding a better pick, one equivalent to your perceived value of him as the replacement?

No one would be willing to "pony up" more than that for Zaitsev.

 

[seanlinden]

When a Blues fan rebuffed the inclusion of Zaitsev you told him to replace him with a 3rd, which is the value of depth dmen who are in the list included in my above post. If he's worth more then why aren't you adding a better pick, one equivalent to your perceived value of him as the replacement?

No one would be willing to "pony up" more than that for Zaitsev.

Because I'd be comfortable in the belief that he could easily be traded for a 3rd at any point in time.

Assuming the Leafs got Pesce and Pietrangelo while only losing Nylander off their current roster, they can afford to trade Zaitsev for a 3rd.

On a D core that after this year includes Rielly, Dermott, Zaitsev, and Oz, they cannot afford to trade Zaitsev.

 

[Snowman]

Within the context of trying to win a cup in the next 2 years, it is an absolute home run -- as it solves by far the largest areas of concern.

It's taking a team that is pretty stacked, but with glaring holes, and filling those glaring holes.

However, if they don't win a cup, that deal will look very rough in 2 years when after trading Liljegren, Nylander, their 1st in 19, their 2nd in 21 and Zaitsev to be left with Pesce and maybe Pietrangelo on a risky long term deal.

WRT not admitting things -- I'll ask you again, who's tabling a better futures oriented offer? And what are they giving up?

Right, only thinking of the Leafs and not what would help the Blues. Your offer is just "here is a bunch of stuff I no longer want, give me one of the best #1RHD in the league and thank me for letting you retain $2M on him."

As for who would offer more, I can't speak for other teams as I don't know their needs and depth well enough.

However, they will easily be able to pull a nice roster player and a pick or prospect at least without having to retain anything. Which easily trumps your offer.

Again, let's just wait and see how many Blues fans are eager to make this swap with the Leafs.

 

[seanlinden]

Right, only thinking of the Leafs and not what would help the Blues. Your offer is just "here is a bunch of stuff I no longer want, give me one of the best #1RHD in the league and thank me for letting you retain $2M on him."

As for who would offer more, I can't speak for other teams as I don't know their needs and depth well enough.

However, they will easily be able to pull a nice roster player and a pick or prospect at least without having to retain anything. Which easily trumps your offer.

Again, let's just wait and see how many Blues fans are eager to make this swap with the Leafs.

Not at all -- I'm thinking of what's the best package of futures I can put together for him... that's St. Louis choice of who they think our best prospect is, our 1st round pick, a mid-level team's 2nd rounder, and the potential of a future 1st rounder, with it being no less than a 2nd, plus a backfill defenceman equal to a mid-rd pick.

Not sure how much more value one can reasonably expect.

If the Blues are trading Pietrangelo for basically pure futures, retention doesn't matter to them.

Again, can you please provide an alternate future-oriented trade that makes sense from another team?

Could they get a young roster player and pick or prospect? Sure, but this is a high end prospect, and 3 very good picks, plus a mid-aged roster player.

 

[67Blues]

Again, let's just wait and see how many Blues fans are eager to make this swap with the Leafs.

I'll take "What is zero" for $500 Alex.

 

[tgo0]

Because I'd be comfortable in the belief that he could easily be traded for a 3rd at any point in time.

Assuming the Leafs got Pesce and Pietrangelo while only losing Nylander off their current roster, they can afford to trade Zaitsev for a 3rd.

On a D core that after this year includes Rielly, Dermott, Zaitsev, and Oz, they cannot afford to trade Zaitsev.

So you can afford to trade him for a fraction of what every other player who meets his criteria is worth? Very poor asset management.

If he truly is a #4 then why wouldn't you ask for the going rate of a #4, a 1st? or a 2nd+good prospect? Can you list any examples of a top 4 D being traded for so paltry of a return?