Proposal: 3 way potential

[Bubblhead00]

Start with these as center pieces. Add picks and prospects to equal out.

To CBJ Nylander
To TOR Pietranglo
To STL Panarin with extension

Click to read more...

 

[jrs]

I was expecting something else coming in here

 

[seanlinden]

I don't see any reason for Panarin to be an active participant in this.

 

[CREW99AW]

Start with these as center pieces. Add picks and prospects to equal out.

To CBJ Nylander
To TOR Pietranglo
To STL Panarin with extension

Why is Panarin, who is rumored to want to sign in Chicago,LA or NY instead passing up the ufa market to sign in St.Louis?

 

[Viqsi]

No real interest. If Panarin is extending before this offseason, it's going to be with the Jackets.

 

[seanlinden]

A better 3-way trade:

To Carolina:
William Nylander

To St. Louis:
One of Liljegren/Sandin
Toronto 1st Round Pick
Carolina 2nd Round Pick
Nikita Zaitsev
2020 Toronto 2nd that becomes a 1st if the Leafs win the cup in the next 2 years.

To Toronto:
Brett Pesce, Alex Pietrangelo ($2m retained), Warren Foegele

Canes get Nylander without giving up substantial roster assets or futures. Blues get a massive haul of futures for a defenceman that they may not wish to resign, plus a top 4 RHD backfill that may allow them to be respectable through a rebuild. Leafs get 3 pieces that almost perfectly satisfy what they need to be cup contenders, and solve their cap crunch for next year; without completely gutting their development system.

 

[mikeyp24]

Panarin from what Ive seen recently in the cbj section seems to be more and more open to signing here. They are meeting in January I think I saw.

So that being said cut out the leafs and do a Tarasenko for Werenski add pluses where they.need to be.

 

[Sherwood71]

A better 3-way trade:

To Carolina:
William Nylander

To St. Louis:
One of Liljegren/Sandin
Toronto 1st Round Pick
Carolina 2nd Round Pick
Nikita Zaitsev
2020 Toronto 2nd that becomes a 1st if the Leafs win the cup in the next 2 years.

To Toronto:
Brett Pesce, Alex Pietrangelo ($2m retained), Warren Foegele

Canes get Nylander without giving up substantial roster assets or futures. Blues get a massive haul of futures for a defenceman that they may not wish to resign, plus a top 4 RHD backfill that may allow them to be respectable through a rebuild. Leafs get 3 pieces that almost perfectly satisfy what they need to be cup contenders, and solve their cap crunch for next year; without completely gutting their development system.

I think St. Louis gets shafted a little. Sandin+1st+2nd+2nd+Major Cap Dump for Pietrangelo seems off in my opinion, mostly because Zaitsev is included. Also, not that it totally matters but Pesce is a significant roster asset. I think TOR makes out the best. Nylander+Sandin+late 1st+ late 2nd+Zaitsev for Piet and Pesce.

EDIT: Also just realized that there's retention, too. Change to major shafting.

I don't see any reason for Panarin to be an active participant in this.

Really? You think he'd deadfish it in a 3-way?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The correct answer to this topic is Bubblhead00 has no three way potential.

I think St. Louis gets shafted a little. Sandin+1st+2nd+2nd+Major Cap Dump for Pietrangelo seems off in my opinion, mostly because Zaitsev is included. Also, not that it totally matters but Pesce is a significant roster asset.

EDIT: Also just realized that there's retention, too. Change to major shafting.



Really? You think he'd deadfish it in a 3-way?

Panarin has nothing to prove. He doesn't need to impress anyone.

 

[A Loyal Dog]

Of course Nylander's worth Pietrangelo...

 

[seanlinden]

I think St. Louis gets shafted a little. Sandin+1st+2nd+2nd+Major Cap Dump for Pietrangelo seems off in my opinion, mostly because Zaitsev is included. Also, not that it totally matters but Pesce is a significant roster asset. I think TOR makes out the best. Nylander+Sandin+late 1st+ late 2nd+Zaitsev for Piet and Pesce.

EDIT: Also just realized that there's retention, too. Change to major shafting.



Really? You think he'd deadfish it in a 3-way?

Zaitsev isn't a major cap dump... he's a 27 year old #4 defenceman paid $4.5m long term. Not worth a massive haul by any means, but if put on the block, there would certainly be a couple of suitors for him in the range of a mid-rd pick.... St. Louis, with Pietrangelo gone, would likely be one of them.

Objectively, given Pietrangelo's contract status, age, and NTC, I'm not sure how one can expect more than a team's best prospect, their 1st round pick this year, and a couple of other early picks; assuming they are prepared to trade him for a haul that's centered around long term upside.


WRT to Panarin -- why is he signing a deal to be included in a trade to St. Louis?

 

[Snowman]

A better 3-way trade:

To Carolina:
William Nylander

To St. Louis:
One of Liljegren/Sandin
Toronto 1st Round Pick
Carolina 2nd Round Pick
Nikita Zaitsev
2020 Toronto 2nd that becomes a 1st if the Leafs win the cup in the next 2 years.

To Toronto:
Brett Pesce, Alex Pietrangelo ($2m retained), Warren Foegele

Canes get Nylander without giving up substantial roster assets or futures. Blues get a massive haul of futures for a defenceman that they may not wish to resign, plus a top 4 RHD backfill that may allow them to be respectable through a rebuild. Leafs get 3 pieces that almost perfectly satisfy what they need to be cup contenders, and solve their cap crunch for next year; without completely gutting their development system.

This is even worse than your offer in the other thread. Now you want St.Louis to give you a rare, elite #1 RHD for a lowball offer, PLUS retain on AP PLUS bail the Leafs out again by taking a cap dump, all while not offering them anything extra for screwing themselves.

 

[Starat327]

A better 3-way trade:

To Carolina:
William Nylander

To St. Louis:
One of Liljegren/Sandin
Toronto 1st Round Pick
Carolina 2nd Round Pick
Nikita Zaitsev
2020 Toronto 2nd that becomes a 1st if the Leafs win the cup in the next 2 years.

To Toronto:
Brett Pesce, Alex Pietrangelo ($2m retained), Warren Foegele

Canes get Nylander without giving up substantial roster assets or futures. Blues get a massive haul of futures for a defenceman that they may not wish to resign, plus a top 4 RHD backfill that may allow them to be respectable through a rebuild. Leafs get 3 pieces that almost perfectly satisfy what they need to be cup contenders, and solve their cap crunch for next year; without completely gutting their development system.

Toronto moves up to the top of the FBIs most wanted list after this, because there's no way this deal gets done without serious bodily harm to the other two teams.

 

[seanlinden]

This is even worse than your offer in the other thread. Now you want St.Louis to give you a rare, elite #1 RHD for a lowball offer, PLUS retain on AP PLUS bail the Leafs out again by taking a cap dump, all while not offering them anything extra for screwing themselves.

Not sure how you think St. Louis is screwing themselves....

They get a top prospect, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, future 1st/2nd, and backfill reasonably young defenceman for a guy they weren't going to resign anyways.

Yeah, they'll pay for it a bit in 19-20 as there wont be any cap savings from Pietrangelo to Zaitsev, but that's the kind of deal that in one shot they go to having a very deep pool of draft picks and prospects; and it's likely to be a rebuilding year anyways.

 

[seanlinden]

Toronto moves up to the top of the FBIs most wanted list after this, because there's no way this deal gets done without serious bodily harm to the other two teams.

So if you're Carolina, and the Leafs are prepared to move Nylander... you wouldn't pay Pesce, Foegele & a 2nd?

And if you're St. Louis, who's decided that they don't want to give Pietrangelo a big long term deal with NTC and expansion draft protection, you scoff at getting a 1st, 2nd (from a mid-level team), top prospect, a conditional 1st/2nd, and a backfill defenceman?

You want to argue that it's not the right deal for St. Louis because they'd be looking to retool and make more of a 1-for-1 hockey trade, I get that, but to suggest that isn't enough in terms of futures seems pretty ludicrous.

 

[TheBluePenguin]

Not sure how you think St. Louis is screwing themselves....

They get a top prospect, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, future 1st/2nd, and backfill reasonably young defenceman for a guy they weren't going to resign anyways.

Yeah, they'll pay for it a bit in 19-20 as there wont be any cap savings from Pietrangelo to Zaitsev, but that's the kind of deal that in one shot they go to having a very deep pool of draft picks and prospects; and it's likely to be a rebuilding year anyways.

There is no reason for St Louis to rebuild, they MIGHT retool and even that is a might. They need shake up in Net and coaching for sure but all these threads about us rebuilding is just silly, our entire core is still decently young.

 

[Viqsi]

Not sure how you think St. Louis is screwing themselves....

They get a top prospect, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, future 1st/2nd, and backfill reasonably young defenceman for a guy they weren't going to resign anyways.

Yeah, they'll pay for it a bit in 19-20 as there wont be any cap savings from Pietrangelo to Zaitsev, but that's the kind of deal that in one shot they go to having a very deep pool of draft picks and prospects; and it's likely to be a rebuilding year anyways.

It's bad for them because you're assuming "futures for rebuild" and what they're after is "shakeup because we're otherwise good on paper so a kick in the ass is needed".

 

[seanlinden]

It's bad for them because you're assuming "futures for rebuild" and what they're after is "shakeup because we're otherwise good on paper so a kick in the ass is needed".

Of course, I've prefaced most of my comments with the assumption that St. Louis is rebuilding. It's certainly possible (even likely) that they view themselves exactly as you described -- a good team on paper that needs a major shakeup.

If their plan is to resign Pietrangelo to a 7-8 year deal worth no less than $7m, and give him expansion draft protection -- then that type of deal obviously makes no sense.

 

[Brock Radunske]

I think St. Louis gets shafted a little. Sandin+1st+2nd+2nd+Major Cap Dump for Pietrangelo seems off in my opinion, mostly because Zaitsev is included. Also, not that it totally matters but Pesce is a significant roster asset. I think TOR makes out the best. Nylander+Sandin+late 1st+ late 2nd+Zaitsev for Piet and Pesce.

EDIT: Also just realized that there's retention, too. Change to major shafting.



Really? You think he'd deadfish it in a 3-way?

Major cap dump?
Go look at his underlying stats and usage. He's a #4RHD.

 

[Starat327]

So if you're Carolina, and the Leafs are prepared to move Nylander... you wouldn't pay Pesce, Foegele & a 2nd?

And if you're St. Louis, who's decided that they don't want to give Pietrangelo a big long term deal with NTC and expansion draft protection, you scoff at getting a 1st, 2nd (from a mid-level team), top prospect, a conditional 1st/2nd, and a backfill defenceman?

You want to argue that it's not the right deal for St. Louis because they'd be looking to retool and make more of a 1-for-1 hockey trade, I get that, but to suggest that isn't enough in terms of futures seems pretty ludicrous.

If I'm Carolina, no.

If I'm the blues - when did pie say he doesn't want to re-sign. You didn't even note this "what if" in your OP.

When Toronto adds pesce and pie, they aren't a "mid level" team, they're pretty much cup favorites. Late first late second, sandin, and a cap dump dont get you Pie.

The deal is attrocious.

 

[seanlinden]

If I'm Carolina, no.

If I'm the blues - when did pie say he doesn't want to re-sign. You didn't even note this "what if" in your OP.

When Toronto adds pesce and pie, they aren't a "mid level" team, they're pretty much cup favorites. Late first late second, sandin, and a cap dump dont get you Pie.

The deal is attrocious.

He didn't say he doesn't want to resign. The entire concept (Pietrangelo for Futures) would be based on the notion that the Blues do not want to sign him. While I may not have made that explicit in my original post, that's generally the assumption when you see a Futures-for-proven player type trade.

Yes -- when Toronto does that, they become a cup favourite right up there with Tampa.... they give up Nylander, their best prospect, their first round pick, a quality #4 defenceman, and a future 1st/2nd to do so.... although i'd suggest that they would probably still be shopping for a winger to backfill the depth lost in Nylander.

 

[tgo0]

If I'm Carolina, no.

If I'm the blues - when did pie say he doesn't want to re-sign. You didn't even note this "what if" in your OP.

When Toronto adds pesce and pie, they aren't a "mid level" team, they're pretty much cup favorites. Late first late second, sandin, and a cap dump dont get you Pie.

The deal is attrocious.

The “mid level 2nd” he was referring to there was Carolina’s, not the leafs.

I don’t think either team outside of Toronto does either OP or 2nd trade (although the basis for the Carolina part could have potential)

 

[Starat327]

The “mid level 2nd” he was referring to there was Carolina’s, not the leafs.

I don’t think either team outside of Toronto does either OP or 2nd trade (although the basis for the Carolina part could have potential)

Fair enough, I did miss that. Though in a deal of this magnitude, I'm not sure 15 spots in the second round really moves the needle.

 

[Liferleafer]

I was expecting something else coming in here

Me too....thought i had a shot at something. But now that i am in here, as a Leafs fan, it's probably good value...but i don't know if i would do it. I personally want to aim at a tier lower than Petro....it would cost less and keep the young core intact.

 

[Snowman]

Not sure how you think St. Louis is screwing themselves....

They get a top prospect, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, future 1st/2nd, and backfill reasonably young defenceman for a guy they weren't going to resign anyways.

Yeah, they'll pay for it a bit in 19-20 as there wont be any cap savings from Pietrangelo to Zaitsev, but that's the kind of deal that in one shot they go to having a very deep pool of draft picks and prospects; and it's likely to be a rebuilding year anyways.

I'm not sure how you can't see what a terrible offer it is. You would think that the lack of Blues fans flocking here to jump at your trade would give you a hint.

How can you not see that they are screwing themselves? You're not even offering the a competent roster player. You want them to take all the risks while Toronto gets all the rewards.

Toronto gets a #1 elite RHD, the rarest position in the NHL outside of 1C.

The Blues get:
A good not great defenseman prospect, a couple late picks that have a low probability of turning into a regular NHL player. A cap dump (Zaitsev) and they have to retain salary. In effect by dumping Zaitsev on them with the $2M retention you want, they are basically killing $6.5M cap space for a prospect.

Does seeing the offer in actual terms help you see how bad it is?