24/25 Waivers/Rumors/TDL Thread.

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Their GM so screwed the pooch on this. If he would have moved on this over the summer, he probably gets more from a Miller trade and doesn't let his locker room turn into a mess. Or he could have used Petersson's contract demands to move him before signing him to that big deal. Now, their #1 center still might not be happy, have to wonder if their not seeming to be interested in re-signing Boeser is fall out from it, and who knows who else is unhappy. And adding to that they had their GM going to the media to call out players earlier in the season.

The whole thing seems self-inflicted.
Your hope is he actually just hates Tocchet, but that is also kind of down to how he competes. He doesn’t seem a great fit for our dressing room and looked lifeless playing for his country too. I am not sure what is going on with him but not super interested in paying to finding out…

It is a huge risk, I get if it works out that is great. A lot of us spent all summer saying this about PLD who has been great in Washington, but something looks really off with Pettersson.

I am not sure what you do when your star players legitimately stop liking each other. Tough spot for Vancouver, while we have Swedes, it is important to remember a bunch of our USA hockey guys know Miller very well too.
 
Your hope is he actually just hates Tocchet, but that is also kind of down to how he competes. He doesn’t seem a great fit for our dressing room and looked lifeless playing for his country too. I am not sure what is going on with him but not super interested in paying to finding out…

It is a huge risk, I get if it works out that is great. A lot of us spent all summer saying this about PLD who has been great in Washington, but something looks really off with Pettersson.

I am not sure what you do when your star players legitimately stop liking each other. Tough spot for Vancouver, while we have Swedes, it is important to remember a bunch of our USA hockey guys know Miller very well too.

Yeah, make it what you will of the situation in Vancouver but the fact he was notably bad in the 4 Nations (there was a part of the Athletic re-cap talking about it today) should tamper, if not outright sink, any desire to take a chance on the guy at this point.
 
Elias Lindholm mention got me looking at Boston and Morgan Geekie and got me thinking that I have no idea how to value him and I have a lot of questions on him.

-First off, with Bergeron and Krejci retiring, Marchand being 36, and potentially missing the playoffs for the first time in a long time, would they potentially unload him?

-26 years old. 17 goals last year and 17 so far this year. That's more than Copp and Compher combined. But, assist numbers are low. Is that a sign that he has more potential to explode, or are his goal numbers flukey?

-Only makes $2 million this year and is an RFA going into next. What kind of contract will he get?

-What would it take to trade for him? I have no idea if it would be relatively cheap or very expensive. But, my mindset in bringing this up is along the lines of what Tampa did with Jeannot (failure) and Hagel (huge success). Identifying a guy that you can get on a value contract and paying to go get him.

So... is he any good? Is adding him to the team a good idea at a cheap price? Is he a guy that teams would actually pay a lot to get?
 
Your hope is he actually just hates Tocchet, but that is also kind of down to how he competes. He doesn’t seem a great fit for our dressing room and looked lifeless playing for his country too. I am not sure what is going on with him but not super interested in paying to finding out…

It is a huge risk, I get if it works out that is great. A lot of us spent all summer saying this about PLD who has been great in Washington, but something looks really off with Pettersson.

I am not sure what you do when your star players legitimately stop liking each other. Tough spot for Vancouver, while we have Swedes, it is important to remember a bunch of our USA hockey guys know Miller very well too.

Yeah, I'm not really enthusiastic for a Pettersson trade, either, outside of a ridiculous underpay. And probably retention, because even if he rebounds to a ppg center, I think he's still $3m, overpaid for that. Especially with our cap team cap structure. But I also don't really see how Vancouver can move him, realistically retool, and keep Hughes happy in the process with his UFA looming. I think they give themselves two years to make it work, but if Hughes won't re-sign and they aren't gaining traction, you scorch earth it a bit.

Every time people downgrade locker room issues when dealing guys in and out of the org, though, I think Vancouver needs to be remembered. My interpretation from what I've seen is that it seems Miller is just a bit of a dick at times, and Vancouver didn't act fast enough when things started heading south in their room. With Miller specifically, I got the impression this isn't the first time he was moved because he had issues in the room, either.

And I still wouldn't trade for PLD. I still don't trust him. I have to point out that while he seems to be having a good season in Washington, he's still only pacing for 65 points. From looking at his career, that is the best case scenario with him, and if you don't get that you get that weird, floaty 40 point guy who talks about not knowing his role.
 
If there are no question marks about them players like Pettersson are not available. It does not meanthat i would trade everything for him, i just don't think it makes sense to do evaluation based on 3 games in a new setup in the middle of difficult season.
 
Yeah, I'm not really enthusiastic for a Pettersson trade, either, outside of a ridiculous underpay. And probably retention, because even if he rebounds to a ppg center, I think he's still $3m, overpaid for that. Especially with our cap team cap structure. But I also don't really see how Vancouver can move him, realistically retool, and keep Hughes happy in the process with his UFA looming. I think they give themselves two years to make it work, but if Hughes won't re-sign and they aren't gaining traction, you scorch earth it a bit.

Every time people downgrade locker room issues when dealing guys in and out of the org, though, I think Vancouver needs to be remembered. My interpretation from what I've seen is that it seems Miller is just a bit of a dick at times, and Vancouver didn't act fast enough when things started heading south in their room. With Miller specifically, I got the impression this isn't the first time he was moved because he had issues in the room, either.

And I still wouldn't trade for PLD. I still don't trust him. I have to point out that while he seems to be having a good season in Washington, he's still only pacing for 65 points. From looking at his career, that is the best case scenario with him, and if you don't get that you get that weird, floaty 40 point guy who talks about not knowing his role.
I think in Tampa Miller was not established enough to be offering those rebukes. He now is a fairly established point producer that plays the game the right way. To be fair Yzerman wasn’t a rainbows and sunshine leader when we got there either. He was hard on Fedorov behind the scenes because of his ridiculous talent level.

Hyper-competitive leadership is tough in rough patches, honestly why I don’t establish it as a leadership principal on teams as a manager in certain cases. I did install it in a really massive way when in construction for a while but we worked on piece rate, you either do it or you don’t and it was far easier to establish that culture. You make the culture for each other but you play into that concept of achievement and competition within. What Miller has always been accused of in terms of being a dick is he wears guys out. What you don’t hear in those criticisms is he is unwilling to do what he is asking. I warned a few years ago to stay away from Miller but I think it matters what dressing room you have, for instance I think he is a far better fit on our current team now even if that opportunity passed.

Pettersson has 54 points in his last 82 games. Somebody damn well should be taking him to task and I think Miller and Tocchet were trying to do something that might not necessarily be in Quinn Hughes’ wheelhouse. If people think Larkin is going to love the Laissez-faire mentality Pettersson has I don’t see it going super well as a landing spot.
 
If there are no question marks about them players like Pettersson are not available. It does not meanthat i would trade everything for him, i just don't think it makes sense to do evaluation based on 3 games in a new setup in the middle of difficult season.
You were using that sample size to argue against the dysfunction of Vancouver being a big culprit. We have a long sample size now in terms of a year plus of something wrong. Three games is too small a sample size, it also wasn’t promising to see him drag down their top six and look lifeless.

You need to be bold in roster construction, I understand those pushing for this. He does have a contract that absolutely kills your ability to be good though if he cannot bring it back to ppg offensive force. I know Demko’s health has been an issue but what is plaguing Vancouver who looked poised to take steps is Pettersson’s game has absolutely cratered to second line center level while making a premium on the cap. I will gladly look at the rest of this forum and be wrong if we acquire him and he returns to the 100 point man he was. It is just a love fraught with peril and one that absolutely ties our core to his turnaround in my opinion.

Confidence is massive for a hockey player. Gaining it back doesn’t always happen with an address change. He would be a summer move so I think seeing him at the World Championships gives you more data points as well outside of Vancouver before the draft.
 
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Not saying the goalies alone will bring any value in a trade but maybe we can throw in a goalie like gylander in a big deal ?

I think we all agree at this point Augustine and cossa are untouchable and since going to the quebec juniors Rudy dumond has been on fireeee 941% and 1.61 gaa

He's 19 so I'd like to hang on to him for now so we have someone in the pipeline that would take 4-5 yrs to be ready (although I'd put him in a deal if push came to shove for an important player)

I like gylander but hes gonna be 24 and we have cossa Augustine and hes not signed but we also have bednar in echl whis been better that we can then sign who turns 23 in late August

Seen somewhere alec martinez is a die hard Detroit fan hes on the older side and will be 38 in the summer but can he be a short term target??? Maybe we can extend him x1 if we like him??

Gylander for martinez??

Chiarot seider
Edvinsson johansson
Martinez gustafsson

I'd still prefer a bigger target like k killer and seeking a tuomisto wallinder see a few games this season ,least kicking holl out a few games for tuomisto
 
You were using that sample size to argue against the dysfunction of Vancouver being a big culprit. We have long sample size now in terms of a year plus of something wrong. Three games is too small a sample size, it also wasn’t promising to see him drag down their top six and look lifeless.

You need to be bold in roster construction, I understand those pushing for this. He does have a contract that absolutely kills your ability to be good though if he cannot bring it back to ppg offensive force. I know Demko’s health has been an issue but what is plaguing Vancouver who looked poised to take steps is Pettersson’s game has absolutely cratered to second line center level while making a premium on the cap. I will gladly look at the rest of this forum and be wrong if we acquire him and he returns to the 100 point man he was. It is just a love fraught with peril and one that absolutely ties our core to his turnaround in my opinion.

Confidence is massive for a hockey player. Gaining it back doesn’t always happen with an address change. He would be a summer move so I think seeing him at the World Championships gives you more data points as well outside of Vancouver before the draft.

Kane looks like his days as plus 5-on-5 player a behind him, and think for this team to improve further he needs to be replaced, currently the ones who were supposed to make a step forward did so. Another imprivement is a legit top 4 defenseman instead of Chiarot.
Who is suited to replace Kane? Marner or Rantanen for 14+mil? Ehlers looks like a good fit with Raymond and Larkin (@9mil?) but this means Kasper is supposed to be play driver on the second line, but i'm not sure he can do it in his sophomore season. Pettersson at 11,6 does sound that bad to me under assuption he is ppg player again. It's less than 1 mil more than Kane and Tarasenko together.
I understand that the last 82 games (which also more or less corresponds with the timing of his injury last year) are not so small of a sample and it means there are issues, the questions are are those issues solvable. Is about environment, about locker room and coach, about injury? Or is it about player? If you think fomer 3 games against top competition should not change it, since even with the trade of Miller those issues or their consequesnces won't dissapear (i.e. form won't come back immediately). I don't think he declined a lot at the age of 26, given injury and invironment issues, i was prepared to give him a benefit of doubt and still do so. Hopefully those 3 games tanked his value further.
 
I think in Tampa Miller was not established enough to be offering those rebukes. He now is a fairly established point producer that plays the game the right way. To be fair Yzerman wasn’t a rainbows and sunshine leader when we got there either. He was hard on Fedorov behind the scenes because of his ridiculous talent level.

Hyper-competitive leadership is tough in rough patches, honestly why I don’t establish it as a leadership principal on teams as a manager in certain cases. I did install it in a really massive way when in construction for a while but we worked on piece rate, you either do it or you don’t and it was far easier to establish that culture. You make the culture for each other but you play into that concept of achievement and competition within. What Miller has always been accused of in terms of being a dick is he wears guys out. What you don’t hear in those criticisms is he is unwilling to do what he is asking. I warned a few years ago to stay away from Miller but I think it matters what dressing room you have, for instance I think he is a far better fit on our current team now even if that opportunity passed.

Pettersson has 54 points in his last 82 games. Somebody damn well should be taking him to task and I think Miller and Tocchet were trying to do something that might not necessarily be in Quinn Hughes’ wheelhouse. If people think Larkin is going to love the Laissez-faire mentality Pettersson has I don’t see it going super well as a landing spot.

It's great that Miller lives what he preaches, but it's not helping when he's actively turning your 1C off the game. And we've had at least one former teammate go public that he pulled Miller aside and made that clear to him, that he was going at Pettersson entirely wrong and that he was "going to lose him." If tocchett was a part of this, taking a 100 point, solid defensive, 1c and just totally losing him...I'm not sure I'd chalk that up in his favor as a coach.

Part of good leadership is not losing one of the three best players on your team.
 
Sorry for the length,

@The Zetterberg Era - I don't disagree with your assessment, but I very much get the impression that this is more than just a 'hard-nosed' player taking someone to task and where exactly that falls in this. Your point of VAN is a mess, and that having the face of your team as a 25yo Hughes, and a big of a revolving door of coaches to try to wrangle manage the interpersonnel relationship of Miller and Peterson is a recipe for disaster. It's a fairly large organizational failure of the front office, ownership, etc. that this wasn't managed for effectively and to allow it have go as far as it has. Relationships, management, and leadership are learned skills just like anything else and I would argue that one of the things that JT Miller has proven time and time again, is his inability to be 'a leader'.

But VAN being a mess and being responsible for this situation, doesn't make JT Miller not a key contributor to the situation.

I think he's tough, and works hard, and has had unbelievable success on the ice because of those things. But despite being as talented as he is - he's now on his fourth team in less than 8yrs. His leadership style might be effective in some capacity, but the hallmark of a good teammate, a good leader, is being able to bring out the best in those you are expected to lead and knowing when to push, when to support, when to critique, etc. The fact he has effectively worn out his welcome in so many locker rooms despite the fact he's such a premier player on the ice, tells me he's a pretty intense and difficult person and probably worse, is he shows either no self awareness of this or personal accountability that he might be the issue otherwise he might have tried a different approach.

The result is still the same that he tries to intensely force a player into performing which is was obviously not working; a wiser more effective leader should try different approaches or reach the conclusion that the individual is inherently flawed (given that the Petterson has performed in the past and has proven capable, that shouldn't be the issue here). I suspect when Miller didn't get what he wanted, he doubled down even harder. I think Miller is a badass, old school player, but I do not think he's a leader nor would I want a player like him in a locker room that didn't have a Sidney Crosby-level of credibility that was willing to keep him in check. Quite frankly, he sounds like a really passionate guy who wants to win and is a huge d*ck to anyone who can't match his intensity - which is going to be most people.

Your Yzerman/Feds example is a good one. I would expect that you dropped 31yo Miller into the Wings locker room in 98, he would've absolutely hated 28yo Fedorov and rode him mercilessly. But that wasn't Fedorov, that wasn't what motivated him. Fedorov was a bit...mercurial. He never had any ambitions to be 'the guy' in the sense of the responsibility of being the leader of the room. He was, to this day, probably the more physically talented player I have ever seen play. There was literally nothing he couldn't do when he wanted to do it and often times because he has so many gifts, it looked like he didn't care or was floating for large parts of games. He could have had 100pt seasons over and over again, Selke Trophies, hell... when he played D for the quarter of the year, he could've contended for a Norris if he made that his full time position. He was often aloof in interviews, he seemed like he cared more about dating celebrities and driving his Porsche, etc. EP isn't quite all of that but in terms of his approach and his talent, I can see why its frustrating to a guy like Miller.

The difference between Yzerman and Miller is, yes, Yzerman was intense, yes, but he also encouraged and supported his teammates. He knew what made Feds go and they would talk regularly (I know this as I would talk to Fedorov on occasion). They always had good conversations and he would encourage him - but Stevie was private in that way when dealing with these things because he was able to flex his leadership style for Fedorov (with the help of Larionov as well). The point of this is simply: just because Petterson isn't working out in the VAN situation with Miller putting him on blast in the room, etc. and him not responding to it - doesn't mean he wouldn't find the support or a better situation with the Wings. The Wings do not have anyone like Miller and in fact, I think Yzerman has gone to great lengths to purposefully eliminate certain personalities in that room and encourage others ( a good portion of my support of Copp) who are good guys who want to help the others in the room.

I do think much of EP's performance currently is due to the utter show that VAN is and a pretty bad shot to his confidence. We know he is a capable ppg 1C with incredibly high defense, do we think he can find that form with the Wings? Maybe. I think our locker room is actually pretty good with a good group of guys who get along and support one another. I also don't think Yzerman would ever allow any disputes or friction in that room to persist and he would nip it in the bud quickly.

Just my 2 cents
 

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