Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: Sad Penguins, no Ploffs, got tariffed instead

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How is signing Marner any different than winning the draft lottery for McKenna next year? McKenna would also screw with their draft position and push them into the 8-15 range, which will prevent them from doing a "true rebuild".
Because Gavin McKenna will be an elite 18 year old #1 pick and Mitch Marner will be approaching his 30s? How are you watching this team and thinking they have the remotest prayer of contending for a Stanley Cup while Marner is still in his prime?

Signing Marner -- and the organizational shift that signing Marner would be a part of -- is a surefire way to make sure this team doesn't contend for a Stanley Cup for a very long time. It would turn us into the early 2010s Toronto Maple Leafs, except instead of Kessel entering his prime it's Kessel leaving it.

Who's the #2 centre? Who's the #1 defenceman? Who's the #2 defenceman, frankly? Who's the #1 centre for the other 5 years of this Marner contract after Sid retires? What if Sid falls off at any point before retiring, or even regresses to being a 70 point player?
 
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I'm for trying to sign Marner but I don't think there's a chance in hell he comes here. I do think getting McKenna is more likely.

But why not both? If the Rags move their pick to 2026 for us and they suck...two lottery picks.

McGroarty-Sid-Marner
McKenna-Misa-Koivunen
Rakell-Novak-Rust
Poulin-Pono-Hallander

Oh yeah, we won the lottery and got 2nd OV in 2025 in my fantasy. I'll be in my bunk. No calls.
 
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Because Gavin McKenna will be an elite 18 year old #1 pick and Mitch Marner will be approaching his 30s? How are you watching this team and thinking they have the remotest prayer of contending for a Stanley Cup while Marner is still in his prime?

Signing Marner -- and the organizational shift that signing Marner would be a part of -- is a surefire way to make sure this team doesn't contend for a Stanley Cup for a very long time. It would turn us into the early 2010s Toronto Maple Leafs, except instead of Kessel entering his prime it's Kessel leaving it.

Who's the #2 centre? Who's the #1 defenceman? Who's the #2 defenceman, frankly? Who's the #1 centre for the other 5 years of this Marner contract after Sid retires? What if Sid falls off at any point before retiring, or even regresses to being a 70 point player?
Mate if the Rangers take this years pick, your next mission is to pray to whatever deity you believe in for them to absolutely f***ing tank with incompetence the f*** out of the season. Like Shesterkin hurt in camp, Breadman yeasted to the LTIR as well and they finish dead last. The Pens should help them by trading them Sullivan after they fire Lavi.

That pick would be ours.
 
Mate if the Rangers take this years pick, your next mission is to pray to whatever deity you believe in for them to absolutely f***ing tank with incompetence the f*** out of the season. Like Shesterkin hurt in camp, Breadman yeasted to the LTIR as well and they finish dead last. The Pens should help them by trading them Sullivan after they fire Lavi.

That pick would be ours.
Dubas needs to be bringing in about a dozen Imamas to go Hanson Brothers on the Rangers every game. Hire Tonya Harding's hitman to "repair" Shesterkin's knee.
 
Because it's incredibly unlikely the Penguins will actually get McKenna in the draft because of the draft lottery. If you win the lottery and get McKenna, he will do the same thing in terms of screwing with your draft position that people are saying about Marner. If you don't win the lottery, it's most likely that Marner will be better than any player you'd pick there. Both of those are true.

If you want to argue against signing Marner because he will "screw with their draft picks" or whatever, you should also be arguing that you don't want to win the McKenna lottery next year because he'll also "screw with their draft picks" in the same way Marner would. In fact, he'd likely screw with those picks more.

The best outcomes are either both signing Marner and winning the McKenna lottery to enable them to have a rapid turnaround with adding 2 star players, or doing neither of those two things to ensure the "tank" lasts as long as possible to accrue as many high picks as possible.
If the Penguins signed Marner what years do you think they would be a realistic cup contender?
 
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They’re not finishing last until Crosby retires or gets injured for a big chunk of the year
We're much closer to finishing last than doing anything in the playoffs. And Sid would only have to drop off a little. Which is pretty likely at 39, especially if we trade Rakell or EK.

Planning to draft high still works even if you end up picking 3rd or 5th or 7th.
 
Chances of Pens winning lottery next year is less than 10%. That’s not a plan.
Passing on 1sts for Karlsson, Rust and Rakell, only to get eliminated in R1 or (more likely) not make it at all, makes more sense?
Aren't we using Karlsson (-27) and Letang as our main two D-men again next year? We're eliminating a top Eastern team in a best of 7 like that?
Malkin will be 39. He may not get 50 points.
Sid regression will happen at some point. Rakell's not gonna repeat this.

Sullivan and Quinn will likely be back. Same coach of the blue line anchoring the 30th ranked defense.
Goaltending has major question marks. Pretty sure Murashov won't take the reigns next year.

No, I'd rather them lose out, trade their valuable assets and draft top 3. That's way better than messing around, accomplishing nothing. At least that way they'll have something to show for the season come this time next year.
 
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If the Penguins signed Marner what years do you think they would be a realistic cup contender?
As I've said here before, Cups are won through performance relative to cap hit.
But if Marner's asking for an astronomical AAV, he likely won't be able to play up to the contract.
At that point you're not making any headway to Cups by bringing him. It's a negative differential.

You need net positive contracts to turn it around. ELC's. Bargains. Reclamation projects working out.
Or huge contracts on guys who are asking for less than market value, and have a chance to outplay it.

If you look at why their record has been pretty decent since the deadline, it's because of these things. There's a fair number of guys outplaying their AAV's lately. Timmins, Dewar, Crosby, Rakell, Rust, Koivunen, Heinen, etc...
When the collective bar gets raised, that is way more impactful than just bringing one overpaid superstar.
 
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As I've said here before, Cups are won through performance relative to cap hit.
But if Marner's asking for an astronomical AAV, he likely won't be able to play up to the contract.
At that point you're not making any headway to Cups by bringing him. It's a negative differential.

You need net positive contracts to turn it around. ELC's. Bargains. Reclamation projects working out.
Or huge contracts on guys who are asking for less than market value, and have a chance to outplay it.

If you look at why their record has been pretty decent since the deadline, it's because of these things. There's a fair number of guys outplaying their AAV's lately. Timmins, Dewar, Crosby, Rakell, Rust, Koivunen, Heinen, etc...
When the collective bar gets raised, that is way more impactful than just bringing one overpaid superstar.
I agree with your general sentiment, but true star players are relatively underpaid given that they can lift lesser players. There is a pretty big gap in player quality for a $10M UFA and an $8M UFA. And there are only so many minutes to go around, and a Koivunen can only offer so much despite a very small cap hit.

But the performance relative to cap hit isn't all that illuminating when it comes to team building. In general you want to build a core of elite players, and then supplement them with good value so you can maintain depth. The first part is the hardest.
 
I agree with your general sentiment, but true star players are relatively underpaid given that they can lift lesser players. There is a pretty big gap in player quality for a $10M UFA and an $8M UFA. And there are only so many minutes to go around, and a Koivunen can only offer so much despite a very small cap hit.
Yeah, so it depends what you think Marner's true value is, lift of other players included. Attach a number to that.
Koivunen is playing 18 minutes atm, with 5 points in 7 games. Theoretically, if he were to sustain this for a year at his current peanut AAV, that's a huge net gain. That's a top-six winger position filled for 5x less than a lot of teams pay.
It offers you the flexibility of letting other guys go, unburdening your cap. Can strengthen other areas.
Not saying he will keep this up, but you get my meaning.
But the performance relative to cap hit isn't all that illuminating when it comes to team building. In general you want to build a core of elite players, and then supplement them with good value so you can maintain depth. The first part is the hardest.
Vegas did it. Their sustained excellence was due to having a bunch of underpaid misfits. Basically like 3 2nd lines in their first year. Reached the Cup final before Eichel even came there.
And they kept rotating out guys who were about to ask for too much, to keep the train rolling.
Then because their standard was high every year, they had the freedom to constantly trade picks for quality roster players, knowing they can keep it up.

When Eichel came over he also outplayed his contract, with a huge 2-way playoff performance. They have the luxury of not even needing him to be brilliant in the regular season to make it, because they have so many other net positive contracts elsewhere to carry them across the line. They just need him to turn it on April-June.
Last year their formula was really good again. They had Hertl and Hanifin at ridiculous cap hits. They just got unlucky that Hertl ghosted the first series, which caused them to get knocked out in 7.
 
Yeah, so it depends what you think Marner's true value is, lift of other players included. Attach a number to that.
Koivunen is playing 18 minutes atm, with 5 points in 7 games. Theoretically, if he were to sustain this for a year at his current peanut AAV, that's a huge net gain. That's a top-six winger position filled for 5x less than a lot of teams pay.
It offers you the flexibility of letting other guys go, unburdening your cap. Can strengthen other areas.
Not saying he will keep this up, but you get my meaning.

Vegas did it. Their sustained excellence was due to having a bunch of underpaid misfits. Basically like 3 2nd lines in their first year. Reached the Cup final before Eichel even came there.
And they kept rotating out guys who were about to ask for too much, to keep the train rolling.
Then because their standard was high every year, they had the freedom to constantly trade picks for quality roster players, knowing they can keep it up.

When Eichel came over he also outplayed his contract, with a huge 2-way playoff performance. They have the luxury of not even needing him to be brilliant in the regular season to make it, because they have so many other net positive contracts elsewhere to carry them across the line. They just need him to turn it on April-June.
Last year their formula was really good again. They had Hertl and Hanifin at ridiculous cap hits. They just got unlucky that Hertl ghosted the first series, which caused them to get knocked out in 7.

You can't just add up point totals though, since not every player can get the same opportunity offensively. Koivunen has been getting 18 minutes a game like you said. He has one point at ES while he has 2 on the PP, one EN point, and one 6v5. There are quite a few bad team scorers who can put up point totals in the 50s in this era with that kind of usage. That's why there's a bigger difference in impact going from an 80 point player to a 60 point player than there is from a 60 to a 40.

I agree 2017 Vegas is the best example, but they also didn't win. Vegas didn't win the cup until after getting elite guys like Eichel and Pietrangelo. That first Vegas team had almost every skater in their prime/mid-20s. That is a lot more difficult to do naturally, and obviously they can't really be a blueprint for the Penguins since they are not an expansion team. It's not like they can just go out and grab the equivalent of Fleury, Theodore, Smith, Karlsson, Marchessault, etc.
 
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You can't just add up point totals though, since not every player can get the same opportunity offensively. Koivunen has been getting 18 minutes a game like you said. He has one point at ES while he has 2 on the PP, one EN point, and one 6v5. There are quite a few bad team scorers who can put up point totals in the 50s in this era with that kind of usage. That's why there's a bigger difference in impact going from an 80 point player to a 60 point player than there is from a 60 to a 40.
It's about getting the most effectiveness from guys per minute deployed, relative to their contracts.
Koivunen may have not been the best example, for the reasons you mentioned. Sure.
Can just look at 2021 instead then and why the Pens won that division. Why was the offense #2 in the league?

1744618414236.png


They just had a really high median in the Forward group. They didn't need Crosby to carry like this year's 2.64. They had other guys blowing away their AAV's to cover for him producing fairly average top-six ES numbers.
Malkin only having 3 5v5 goals (and missing 23 games) was also covered by lesser guys having career year rates.
Carter's not on this list cuz of the game filter, but he's another one who blew away his AAV.

The PP was 4th, another extension of well deployed cap resulting in net-positive performances.

It was the same on the blue line. Letang had possibly his best all-rounder year. Definitely outplayed his AAV by at least a few mil.
Dumo, Ceci, Marino (925k), Matheson all outplayed theirs too.

Jarry was only .909. They didn't even need him to be excellent to win that division. Just average.

The reason they lost in the playoffs was largely because of Jarry, but also because of L1 disappearing and getting almost nothing from McCann, ERod and Kapanen.
So their performance relative to AAV's dropped all over the map.

I agree 2017 Vegas is the best example, but they also didn't win. Vegas didn't win the cup until after getting elite guys like Eichel and Pietrangelo. That first Vegas team had almost every skater in their prime/mid-20s. That is a lot more difficult to do naturally, and obviously they can't really be a blueprint for the Penguins since they are not an expansion team. It's not like they can just go out and grab the equivalent of Fleury, Theodore, Smith, Karlsson, Marchessault, etc.
Yes, but that doesn't happen if Eichel doesn't outperform his AAV. It's not enough to just be a superstar. You need the right price tag for your team too.
Pietrangelo also played up to his 8.8M.

It isn't a fair blueprint, that's true. But what I'm saying is that you can win a Cup with like three 2nd lines, and a 3rd line. You have three middle defensive level pairings. Then maybe average to slightly above average goaltending at good AAVs gets it done.
If you're able to keep running back this formula, you have a huge chance to win.

It's not a formula teams even really try, so we don't have much precedent. GMs were always taught to go after the powerful core and build from there.
But I believe it can be done, with smart management. I think it's a huge strength to have enough guys who can cover for high-end players disappearing at critical times. You just get someone else stepping up every night, on rotation...much like the 2021 regular season Pens.
 
Next season we're an easy "typical pens injury year" away from breezing to a bottom 5 finish. All it would take is a week to week high ankle (or similar) for Sid, and have it turn into Ebola or something ridiculous and we'll be a lock for a high lottery pick.

We're definitely due for one of those type of years where we miss a bajillion man games ...
 
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Because Gavin McKenna will be an elite 18 year old #1 pick and Mitch Marner will be approaching his 30s? How are you watching this team and thinking they have the remotest prayer of contending for a Stanley Cup while Marner is still in his prime?

Again, read the actual argument I'm making. My argument is how does this:

Signing Marner -- and the organizational shift that signing Marner would be a part of -- is a surefire way to make sure this team doesn't contend for a Stanley Cup for a very long time. It would turn us into the early 2010s Toronto Maple Leafs, except instead of Kessel entering his prime it's Kessel leaving it.

Who's the #2 centre? Who's the #1 defenceman? Who's the #2 defenceman, frankly? Who's the #1 centre for the other 5 years of this Marner contract after Sid retires? What if Sid falls off at any point before retiring, or even regresses to being a 70 point player?

Not also exactly apply to McKenna as well? My point is that the "he'll make us too good to tank properly" is a bad argument and not a legitimate point against bringing in Marner. I'm bringing up McKenna because he will do the same exact thing to their draft position, and likely to a higher degree because he projects to be better than Marner. If you're saying no to Marner because it will hurt their draft picks and screw with their ability to do a rebuild, how does that also not apply to McKenna?

I am not arguing that McKenna and Marner are equal. I'm arguing that the "he'll screw with our draft position" argument people are applying to Marner applies to McKenna as well. That's why I posted this like 2 posts later:

I agree that is a difference between them, but my point was regarding the "will ruin their ability to do a proper rebuild" point. I'm not saying Marner and McKenna are equal, but winning the McKenna lottery next year will have the same exact impact in terms of "ruining their rebuild" by "being good enough to ratf*** this team's hopes of ending up with top 5 picks in the next few drafts". I would even argue it has a larger impact, since McKenna projects to be better than Marner.

If you get McKenna and Crosby doesn't retire, it's very possible that the Penguins will be a playoff team in 2026-2027. I just don't see how you can reasonably apply that argument to Marner but not McKenna. My point is that I don't view that as a legitimate argument, and you shouldn't pass up on acquiring top tier talent just because you're worried it might lower your draft pick a bit.

Guys like Marner simply do not hit free agency, getting him signed to a long-term deal is basically like getting a free top-5 pick in my eyes.
 
Again, read the actual argument I'm making. My argument is how does this:

Not also exactly apply to McKenna as well? My point is that the "he'll make us too good to tank properly" is a bad argument and not a legitimate point against bringing in Marner. I'm bringing up McKenna because he will do the same exact thing to their draft position, and likely to a higher degree because he projects to be better than Marner. If you're saying no to Marner because it will hurt their draft picks and screw with their ability to do a rebuild, how does that also not apply to McKenna?

I am not arguing that McKenna and Marner are equal. I'm arguing that the "he'll screw with our draft position" argument people are applying to Marner applies to McKenna as well. That's why I posted this like 2 posts later:
Because if you get McKenna, you no longer have to tank or care about draft position nearly as much. The whole point of the rebuild is to try to get an elite young talent like McKenna.

Also, there is zero promise that rookie McKenna + 39 year old Crosby actually damages our draft position. Ever heard of the 2023-24 Blackhawks? Or the 2024-25 Sharks? Or the 2015-16 Oilers? Or, uh, the 2005-06 Penguins?

Marner serves zero purpose to this team. It's like if the 2003-04 Penguins had gone out and given Paul Kariya a huge contract.
 
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Because if you get McKenna, you no longer have to tank or care about draft position nearly as much. The whole point of the rebuild is to try to get an elite young talent like McKenna.

Also, there is zero promise that rookie McKenna + 39 year old Crosby actually damages our draft position. Ever heard of the 2023-24 Blackhawks? Or the 2024-25 Sharks? Or the 2015-16 Oilers? Or, uh, the 2005-06 Penguins?

Marner serves zero purpose to this team. It's like if the 2003-04 Penguins had gone out and given Paul Kariya a huge contract.

Then why the hell is it a problem if the Penguins go out and sign Marner then? The argument people are using against signing Marner is that it will damage their draft position.

The 2003-2004 Penguins handing out a mega contract to Kariya would have been massively beneficial for the Crosby/Malkin/Staal core that they were developing. Having a prime aged Marner being a top player in the league would dramatically help out the next young core as they're getting acclimated to the NHL.
 
Again, read the actual argument I'm making. My argument is how does this:



Not also exactly apply to McKenna as well? My point is that the "he'll make us too good to tank properly" is a bad argument and not a legitimate point against bringing in Marner. I'm bringing up McKenna because he will do the same exact thing to their draft position, and likely to a higher degree because he projects to be better than Marner. If you're saying no to Marner because it will hurt their draft picks and screw with their ability to do a rebuild, how does that also not apply to McKenna?

I am not arguing that McKenna and Marner are equal. I'm arguing that the "he'll screw with our draft position" argument people are applying to Marner applies to McKenna as well. That's why I posted this like 2 posts later:
If you get McKenna, the focus shifts from trying to get high picks to trying to build your roster around McKenna. Just like when we got Sid. That’s not to say McKenna is as good as Sid was, but he has franchise player upside.

Where a team like Chicago has gone wrong, IMO, is that they got a guy who is supposed to be that level in Bedard and just kept the tank going.

Sid never played an NHL season/game where the legitimate goal of the team was anything but to win (up until very recently) that means something.

Marner would just be a bandaid on a shot gun wound.
 
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If you get McKenna, the focus shifts from trying to get high picks to trying to build your roster around McKenna. Just like when we got Sid. That’s not to say McKenna is as good as Sid was, but he has franchise player upside.

Where a team like Chicago has gone wrong, IMO, is that they got a guy who is supposed to be that level in Bedard and just kept the tank going.

Sid never played an NHL season/game where the legitimate goal of the team was to win (up until very recently) that means something.

Marner would just be a bandaid on a shot gun wound.

That means you'd want a guy like Marner on the team to actually help build the team around McKenna then. Sure, ideally you're adding him in the 2026 off-season rather than the 2025 off-season, but there's no guarantee you'll get a chance to add a Marner caliber player.

It's likely a moot point because Marner probably doesn't sign here, but I just don't like the arguments being thrown out against signing him. He's a top player in the league that could be acquired for free, and I'm seriously skeptical that he's going to have any sort of negative consequences in terms of their draft position or rebuild that they wouldn't have already with Crosby here.
 
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