Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXV - Poolman and Poolparty?!?

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

EK is about the best example I can think of when it comes to this team being extremely difficult to assess player-performance-wise because we are viewing it all through the warped moron of a lens that is Mike Sullivan Hockey™

 

[Empoleon8771]

EK is about the best example I can think of when it comes to this team being extremely difficult to assess player-performance-wise because we are viewing it all through the warped moron of a lens that is Mike Sullivan Hockey™

I think NHL GMs aren't as fickle as fans and Karlsson's ability is pretty well known league-wide. They're not just looking at his hockeyDB page saying "he's washed because he's not putting up 100 points".

I seriously doubt they'll get as much as they paid for him, but he should be pretty coveted if he's being retained down to $5 million. One big question I have is would Dubas go that route (heavy retention to get a better return) or would he do the same thing San Jose did (less retention and a lesser return)? Easy to say it when it's not my money, but FSG may not approve retaining $10 million just to get a 1st instead of $5 million to get a 2nd.

 

[Darren McCord]

Just for laughs:

1. Karlsson at $5 million and O'Connor to Dallas for Dumba, Bourque and a conditional 2026 1st (turns into a 2026 2nd if the Stars don't win the cup in either 2025 or 2026).
2. Pettersson to Edmonton for Stecher, Akey and a 2025 2nd
3. Rakell to Minnesota for Johansson, Heidt and a 2025 2nd
4. Grzelcyk (3rd), Beauvillier (4th) and Johansson (4th) traded for picks.

Koivunen-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Tomasino
McGroarty-Bourque-Bemstrom
Lizotte-Glass-Acciari
Hayes-Nieto

Joseph-Letang
Pickering-Dumba
Graves-Stecher
Shea

Nedjelkovic-Blomqvist

Heidt, Akey, a conditional 1st/2nd, 2 2nds, a 3rd and 2 4ths added to the prospect pool while Bourque is a young NHLer.

I would prefer a guaranteed first over the 2nd and Bourque. Karlsson at 5 mill should have really good value. Bourque is a solid prospect but I am not sold on the quantity of quality.

Also dumba is a cap dump since he is signed next season. That should increase the return.

And I would rather trade O'Connor seperate for like a 3rd.

 

[Ulf5]

you would retain to trade him for nothing?

To clarify, I'd trade him if they didn't have to add picks or prospects to do it. Which I seriously doubt they would have to if they retained a sizable chunk.

 

[Darren McCord]

To clarify, I'd trade him if they didn't have to add picks or prospects to do it. Which I seriously doubt they would have to if they retained a sizable chunk.

Karlsson is 13th in the league for Dmen at EVS. At 5 mill he should have a lot of value. He looks worse cause the team sucks and sullivan doesnt know how to use him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I would prefer a guaranteed first over the 2nd and Bourque. Karlsson at 5 mill should have really good value. Bourque is a solid prospect but I am not sold on the quantity of quality.

Also dumba is a cap dump since he is signed next season. That should increase the return.

And I would rather trade O'Connor seperate for like a 3rd.

I don't know that you're likely to get a better prospect than Bourque with a late 1st. Bourque has 2C upside IMO and put up 77 points in 71 games in the AHL last year as a 21/22 year old.

I think he'd probably fall as their #3 prospect, right after Brunicke but ahead of Koivunen. Wheeler had him ranked #63 before this season, which was about the same as Yager.

 

[IcedCapp]

To clarify, I'd trade him if they didn't have to add picks or prospects to do it. Which I seriously doubt they would have to if they retained a sizable chunk.

Okay, so I guess what I don't understand is, why are we in a hurry to get cap space?

I can see the argument "retain to get a massive package!" but the way you're talking about him, he's a cap dump. Why are we moving cap dumps? We don't need cap space?

 

[Empoleon8771]

To clarify, I'd trade him if they didn't have to add picks or prospects to do it. Which I seriously doubt they would have to if they retained a sizable chunk.

If you're getting nothing to trade Karlsson, why even bother trading him?

Keep him until he's a rental and you're likely getting something back for him at that point.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think NHL GMs aren't as fickle as fans and Karlsson's ability is pretty well known league-wide. They're not just looking at his hockeyDB page saying "he's washed because he's not putting up 100 points".

I seriously doubt they'll get as much as they paid for him, but he should be pretty coveted if he's being retained down to $5 million. One big question I have is would Dubas go that route (heavy retention to get a better return) or would he do the same thing San Jose did (less retention and a lesser return)? Easy to say it when it's not my money, but FSG may not approve retaining $10 million just to get a 1st instead of $5 million to get a 2nd.

It was more a random thought than it was a commentary on his perceived value. I think that you are right that GMs know that there are other factors at play re: his performance. But it will still be used as leverage against like all the other potential trade chips that have been devalued steadily, here.

 

[Ulf5]

Okay, so I guess what I don't understand is, why are we in a hurry to get cap space?

I can see the argument "retain to get a massive package!" but the way you're talking about him, he's a cap dump. Why are we moving cap dumps? We don't need cap space?

I don't see him as a cap dump. However, there's a list of probably zero willing and able to take his full cap hit on at this time of the season. Besides, as you mentioned, another $3-$5 million off his cap hit, should improve the return a good deal.

 

[Ulf5]

If you're getting nothing to trade Karlsson, why even bother trading him?

Keep him until he's a rental and you're likely getting something back for him at that point.

I don't expect nothing in return. EK at $5-$6 million has big value imho.
He hasn't come out and publicly requested a trade. But when he makes comments like the Big 3 have their rings and I have none, seems he'd approve a move. Cause this team isn't sniffing the playoffs.

 

[Darren McCord]

I don't know that you're likely to get a better prospect than Bourque with a late 1st. Bourque has 2C upside IMO and put up 77 points in 71 games in the AHL last year as a 21/22 year old.

I think he'd probably fall as their #3 prospect, right after Brunicke but ahead of Koivunen. Wheeler had him ranked #63 before this season, which was about the same as Yager.

Bourque is literally a late 1rst round pick lol. But I get the point. I disagree with the number 2C upside but I think he ends up a solid 3rd line center. I also would like to see them get some bigger players in the center position. I wouldn't be upset with him but I think taking dumba back as a cap dump should bump the return.

I don't see Dallas as a good fit for Karlsson

 

[Empoleon8771]

Bourque is literally a late 1rst round pick lol. But I get the point. I disagree with the number 2C upside but I think he ends up a solid 3rd line center. I also would like to see them get some bigger players in the center position. I wouldn't be upset with him but I think taking dumba back as a cap dump should bump the return.

I don't see Dallas as a good fit for Karlsson

Yeah what I mean is that Bourque was a hit on a late 1st rounder that you're not super likely to replicate. I think we can be splitting hairs on Bourque's upside, but yeah I think he'll become a good middle-6 center.

Dallas makes a boatload of sense for me for EK. The big things are:

1. They were rumored to be interested in him in the past.
2. They have Lindell to play with Karlsson and mask his defensive issues.
3. Their PP stinks and they really need a PPQB.

The bigger question is what they'd offer in a trade, because their prospect pool is terrible now that all of their good prospects have graduated.

 

[Darren McCord]

3. Their PP stinks and they really need a PPQB.

Karlsson is not a good PPQB. He really never has been.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Are there strong rumours that EK could get moved at the deadline? Seems like a difficult trade to do during the season

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I would prefer a guaranteed first over the 2nd and Bourque. Karlsson at 5 mill should have really good value. Bourque is a solid prospect but I am not sold on the quantity of quality.

Also dumba is a cap dump since he is signed next season. That should increase the return.

And I would rather trade O'Connor seperate for like a 3rd.

I don't know that you're likely to get a better prospect than Bourque with a late 1st. Bourque has 2C upside IMO and put up 77 points in 71 games in the AHL last year as a 21/22 year old.

I think he'd probably fall as their #3 prospect, right after Brunicke but ahead of Koivunen. Wheeler had him ranked #63 before this season, which was about the same as Yager.

Bourque is literally a late 1rst round pick lol. But I get the point. I disagree with the number 2C upside but I think he ends up a solid 3rd line center. I also would like to see them get some bigger players in the center position. I wouldn't be upset with him but I think taking dumba back as a cap dump should bump the return.

I don't see Dallas as a good fit for Karlsson

Yeah what I mean is that Bourque was a hit on a late 1st rounder that you're not super likely to replicate. I think we can be splitting hairs on Bourque's upside, but yeah I think he'll become a good middle-6 center.

Dallas makes a boatload of sense for me for EK. The big things are:

1. They were rumored to be interested in him in the past.
2. They have Lindell to play with Karlsson and mask his defensive issues.
3. Their PP stinks and they really need a PPQB.

The bigger question is what they'd offer in a trade, because their prospect pool is terrible now that all of their good prospects have graduated.

I think a Dallas 1st is worth less than Bourque.

It's not Bourque and 2nd or 1st round pick.
It's we want a C prospect and we think a 5 million dollar Karlsson is worth more than Bourque alone.

Emp has it down to a T.
Karlsson could be the PPQB. They have a spot for him perfect in the line up.

 

[Darren McCord]

I think a Dallas 1st is worth less than Bourque.

It's not Bourque and 2nd or 1st round pick.
It's we want a C prospect and we think a 5 million dollar Karlsson is worth more than Bourque alone.

Emp has it down to a T.
Karlsson could be the PPQB. They have a spot for him perfect in the line up.

Again Karlsson is an awful PPQB. He cant even be the PPQB on a bad team why would he be one on a good team?

Any team he has been on in the last 5 years that has him as a PPQB has a Powerplay bottom 10 in the league. Actually go back further and it was awful in Ottawa too.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Again Karlsson is an awful PPQB. He cant even be the PPQB on a bad team why would he be one on a good team?

Any team he has been on in the last 5 years that has him as a PPQB has a Powerplay bottom 10 in the league. Actually go back further and it was awful in Ottawa too.

Issue is that Dallas already has a bad powerplay so I doubt he'd make it worse. I think he'd more likely be used in a triggerman spot, I thought he looked very effective in that role on the PP earlier in the year.

But back to the 1st vs Bourque, I think it would be a bit more likely that the Penguins retain less and just get picks back than retaining more to also get Bourque. The Sharks did the same thing where they only retained $1.5 million on Karlsson's deal, I think the Penguins would likely retain less and get a lesser return.

My bet would be like Karlsson at $6.5 million to someone for a cap dump replacement RHD and a late 1st. Retains $3.5 million in AAV and $7 million in real money and get back something like Dumba and a late 1st for it.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Issue is that Dallas already has a bad powerplay so I doubt he'd make it worse. I think he'd more likely be used in a triggerman spot, I thought he looked very effective in that role on the PP earlier in the year.

But back to the 1st vs Bourque, I think it would be a bit more likely that the Penguins retain less and just get picks back than retaining more to also get Bourque. The Sharks did the same thing where they only retained $1.5 million on Karlsson's deal, I think the Penguins would likely retain less and get a lesser return.

My bet would be like Karlsson at $6.5 million to someone for a cap dump replacement RHD and a late 1st. Retains $3.5 million in AAV and $7 million in real money and get back something like Dumba and a late 1st for it.

I am over here more interested in maximizing the return with full retention. I would rather get more and do 50%

 

[Darren McCord]

Issue is that Dallas already has a bad powerplay so I doubt he'd make it worse.

Dallas is 24th and funny enough that's about where Karlsson led teams end up. The only teams he was on in the past 10 years to be higher than bottom 10 are this years pens when is on the second unit and the sharks when Burns led it.

He won't make it worse but the value for them isn't there when you can get someone much cheaper to run it as a number 6th dmen.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I am over here more interested in maximizing the return with full retention. I would rather get more and do 50%

I want to do the same but I don't think NHL teams operate that way. I think they'd retain less to owe less money and have a less return.

I think that's the more likely outcome, retain less and get a lesser return.

 

[Malkinstheman]

I want to do the same but I don't think NHL teams operate that way. I think they'd retain less to owe less money and have a less return.

I think that's the more likely outcome, retain less and get a lesser return.

Dubas said during the summer that he had ownerships support in using cap space to get picks. He retained some of Reilly Smith's contract just to get a mid round pick. Of course EKs contract is alot more money but I think Dubas will prioritize value

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dubas said during the summer that he had ownerships support in using cap space to get picks. He retained some of Reilly Smith's contract just to get a mid round pick. Of course EKs contract is alot more money but I think Dubas will prioritize value

Yeah the issue is that you're talking about $10.5 million if they retain Karlsson down to $5 million and move him at the deadline. A lot different than being paid to take on Glass' deal or retaining $1.25 million on Smith.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

If we're trading EK to Dallas, I want Lian Bichsel.

 

[Darren McCord]

Yeah the issue is that you're talking about $10.5 million if they retain Karlsson down to $5 million and move him at the deadline. A lot different than being paid to take on Glass' deal or retaining $1.25 million on Smith.

Is it? I mean Glass and Hayes was effectively 9.5 mill between this year and next. And they were 10000% brought in for the picks. Thats literally only 1 mill more.