Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXV - Poolman and Poolparty?!?
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Le Magnifique 66
Let's Go Pens
Boooommmmm!!! Crosby to the Avs rumors up and running again!!!
Them jerseys are badass.
I don't know, kind of hesitant. How much more would we have to give up besides Sid?
- Jun 13, 2010
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The hard route but best route for this organization is to continue to plummet this year - pick top 5 and get Misa and then tank next year while recouping picks and young players while finishing last and getting McKenna. That's your new Sid and Geno who get a year with the real Sid. Then pass the torch.
I'm not sure I agree with this, primarily because I don't think it's as easy or as black and white as this.
When it's Letang and Malkin up for a new deal, while they had just lost in the first round, so there was still hope that this was a playoff caliber team. Letang got a 6 year deal. Malkin almost didn't get resigned and it didn't get done until the last minute. He did say that retiring in Pittsburgh was important to him. Those two signed at different times than what we have now. That said, I can't imagine there wasn't some level of forethought that, eventually, they might not be a playoff team.
When it comes to Sid, he's stated over and over again how much he wants to retire a Penguin. I really call into question the idea that he was on the fence about resigning and someone yahoo from FSG meets with him and tells him "we are going to be better". At this point, I think the FSG guy would be lucky to get a meeting with Sid and I can't imagine Sid needs to be told that be a FSG guy in order to resign. Rather, I think the message was more "as long as you are here, we will commit the money to putting the best possible team together" vs "hey, we stink so we are cutting our internal budget way down. Say goodbye to Karls and Rusty".
Now after missing twice, certainly Sid had SOME clue that they would be competing for a WC2 slot. Sid's been around for 20 years, he knows how the league works and how teams are built. I can't imagine anyone was trying to convince that "oh, we'll just go into free agency and sign a couple guys and we'll be cup contenders again!" That's silly and Sid isn't stupid. Neither are most fans. Sid was going to resign here regardless. He's in the legacy building phase of his career. Points, faceoffs, retiring a Penguin. These are things he has control over. I don't think he was under any delusions that this team was a cup contender nor would any signings or plausible trades change that.
These are big boys. They knew what they were doing. If FSG told them "we'll send to the cap" and then balk and say "Nope, $75mil max", then you'd have a point. Fact is, it's tough to build a cup team. 31 teams fail every year. Some teams like 23 Boston can look like it's a foregone conclusion and still fail.
Taking a step back and asking "how control over the outcome does Dubas really have" is a fair question. While he has the final say on roster and coaches, in theory, I even question that. I still maintain that the single greatest roadblock facing this team is Sullivan, not Dubas. I think Dubas gave Sullivan the team that Sullivan wanted last year and it flatlined because that's not how you build a playoff team in this league anymore. That very well could be Dubas wanting to work with his coach coming in as the new guy. Fatal mistake listening to that guy.
Next, while Dubas handed out two f***ing albatross contracts in Graves and Jarry - at the end of the day, he's not the player or the coach. Dubas isn't the one making Jarry miss the first, second, and third shots of the game on a regular basis. He didn't make Graves suddenly forget how to play hockey, though I suspect that has much more to do with Sullivan and his system than Graves as a whole (50/50 at best).
As I said above, no signing or trade that Dubas makes is going to make Sid, Geno, and Letang 25 again. Look at playoff rosters - they have high-quality core players in their prime. Florida - Barks and Tkachuk. Vegas - Eichel, Stone, Piets. New Jersey - Hughes, Hiesh, Bratt. There just comes a point when you age out. Happens to every single team. The DWR got old. Wayne and Mario got old. It happens. And procuring that high-level talent needed to replace them is tough. In pursuit of the playoffs, you're trading the picks and prospects needed to replenish and it's tough to trade for them.
Now he has to balance out what the future looks like. We can't throw picks, prospects, and absurd contracts out there anymore. But we still need to do right by Sid (and to a lesser extent, Letang and Malkin). Regardless how anyone feels, that's what the organization will do and that's what we are seeing now.
If there were players truly in revolt over this, you'd see a major move by Dubas or you'd see Sullivan fired. The smartest CEO in the world couldn't have save Blockbuster video from what would inevitably happen. You could MAYBE fire your COO/CFO and that would hold off the bankruptcy for a couple years but inevitably, this team will STINK in 3 years.
In addition to hating practically every FA signing he's made, my biggest criticism of Dubas is often his inaction. Last year, he sat by and watched that team slowly glide into the dirt. He watch 2 MAJOR losing streaks (one 8 games and the other 7 if I remember correctly) and he did nothing. No waives, callups, trades, firings...nothing. He sat on his hands until the TDL. I give him more props this year for Tomasino and POJ which have been nice additions but if this is a team you want to make the playoffs, you HAVE to be willing to get your hands dirty making a couple of moves.
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BlindWillyMcHurt
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- May 31, 2004
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This is all well and good and I don't disagree with much of it but again... ya'll are making this way too complicated and it doesn't need to be. Everyone has correctly pointed out that Sullivan is a huge roadblock for EITHER direction the team wants to go in, potentially. It's one of two things... Dubas is either too stupid/fanboi to fire Mike Sullivan or he is just some vestigial, lame duck yes-man who was hired to be a caretaker and not touch certain things. In both instances he is undesirable as the GM of this team. And if he AGREED to be that guy then f*** all of them and everything about this team because that's some slimy, backstabbing horseshit and it should infuriate anyone who actually cares about this club.
We should be modeling after what Columbus did. They started rebuilding 5 years ago and now they’re about to make the playoffs.
The problem being we will never do it. And the players that would get us 1st back we’re not going to trade.
The problem being we will never do it. And the players that would get us 1st back we’re not going to trade.
pistolpete11
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- Apr 27, 2013
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I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I'm fine with this direction. I think you can put a decent team on the ice to give Sid and Geno a shot at winning a playoff round here or there while not spending quality futures and even picking up some extra futures by trading pending UFA's or whatever. It's not the "tear it down to the studs and rebuild as quickly as possible" approach that some want, but it's still building a foundation for the future. Frankly, it's the approach they should have been taking for several years now, if not further back.
The problem is Sullivan hasn't been getting the most out of the roster since like 2019. That problem compounds when the GM decides they need to make a bunch of moves to fix things, but they aren't fixing the #1 issue.
- Jun 13, 2010
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We will be doing that whether we want to or not the year after Sid retires. This team is going to fall off a cliff when he's gone. No one is saving it after that.
The difference is "well we might have to wait an extra two years vs starting today".
Gurglesons
Registered User
Yet that is exactly what Dubas is trying to do. Starve off a full on rebuild. And his moves are distinctly focused on it.
Randy Butternubs
FDJT
BlindWillyMcHurt
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- May 31, 2004
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I just want to start regularly watching games again without having to like... mentally prepare myself for a full day in advance for the ordeal I'm about to go through.
- Jun 13, 2010
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Now. Not when Sid and Geno are gone.
He's trying to bring in some young players to infuse some youth into the lineup because it's clear being the oldest team in the NHL isn't a solid cup winning plan.
Guys like Glass and Tomasino are complementary players now and transitionary players later. When Geno is gone, I expect to see Glass as 2C. When both are gone, he'll be 2C and possibly 1C. Depends on how the WBS kids do. But that ain't gonna be enough to keep us out of the bottom 3.
BlindWillyMcHurt
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- May 31, 2004
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lol if Glass ends up being this team's 2C for more than like a few weeks... nevermind 1C... they might actually adjust the rules so they can relegate them to the AHL out of embarrassment.
The next time that guy does something of note might be the first time.
The next time that guy does something of note might be the first time.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
If you want the Penguins to be acting like the Jackets in their rebuild, you should be fully supportive of the Penguins trying to sign Marner based on the Jackets doing a very similar move with signing Gaudreau as a UFA.
Gurglesons
Registered User
Dubas knows that some people would prefer their team’s situation to be placed in a “very binary” position. “Either they want to say contending or whatever phrase you want to use – retooling, retool on the fly, replenish, renew, rebuild – whatever you want to say. I think every situation is unique in every different marketplace.”
“I'm a firm believer that if you throw everything overboard, you really have to be careful what you wish for, because you could go a long time before you're back to being a competitive and contending team,” Dubas said. “So, our focus is on trying to, as I always say, as urgently as possible bring in (what we can) using whatever means we have.”
Dubas isn't doing a full rebuild. If we finish in the top 5 this year and next those picks will be on the roster. He's acquiring assets to rebuild the team as fast as possible.
Based on Hextall and Dubas both saying this, it seems obvious that FSG is not comfortable with this team not attempting to be competitive.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Honestly I think Dubas' plan as GM has been pretty clear:
1. Get younger, with prioritizing young NHLers, prospects and picks in that order.
2. Give Crosby and Malkin at least a chance of being competitive by surrounding them with decent talent.
3. Gradually build up the prospect pool so that the post-Crosby and Malkin era isn't completely horrid without any sort of young talent.
He's trying to avoid this team turning into the X-Gen Penguins again, and that both goes for the quality of the prospect pool when the team starts getting bad and how long the team is bad for. Or if you want a more modern example, he doesn't want this to be a Blackhawks rebuild where they're wasting Bedard because they tore down everything to get Bedard.
The problem is that Sullivan isn't aligning with those goals, namely #1. Dubas should be stepping in and forcing Sullivan's hand to stop playing guys like Nieto and Hayes and start playing guys like Ponomarev and Poulin. That's something he needs to force on the roster by making roster moves.
1. Get younger, with prioritizing young NHLers, prospects and picks in that order.
2. Give Crosby and Malkin at least a chance of being competitive by surrounding them with decent talent.
3. Gradually build up the prospect pool so that the post-Crosby and Malkin era isn't completely horrid without any sort of young talent.
He's trying to avoid this team turning into the X-Gen Penguins again, and that both goes for the quality of the prospect pool when the team starts getting bad and how long the team is bad for. Or if you want a more modern example, he doesn't want this to be a Blackhawks rebuild where they're wasting Bedard because they tore down everything to get Bedard.
The problem is that Sullivan isn't aligning with those goals, namely #1. Dubas should be stepping in and forcing Sullivan's hand to stop playing guys like Nieto and Hayes and start playing guys like Ponomarev and Poulin. That's something he needs to force on the roster by making roster moves.
Dennis Reynolds
I have to have my tools!
Not only should Pulju and Puus have been given more time over him earlier in the year, but McG, Koivunen, Broz, Poulin, Pono, and even Bemstrom should have had looks over him at this point. He's terrible.
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in the Flood
For those raking Dubi over the coals for Graves and TJ, here's what been going around after Serevelli's hit piece.
Graves was ranked 6th and 3rd Dman.
TJ was ranked 9th and 1st goalie.
Graves was ranked 6th and 3rd Dman.
TJ was ranked 9th and 1st goalie.
BlindWillyMcHurt
ti kallisti
- May 31, 2004
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Exactly. Look I suppose I can at least UNDERSTAND the thought process with a guy like Glass and he's a good PKer and has some good points to his game defensively. But he's just not a top six player... likely a 3C even on a very bad team at best. And as you pointed out there are guys in-system that have more of a ceiling and might still be able to reach it.
I know Glass isn't old at all but some guys you can just tell have no idea what to do on one side of the puck or the other and that's Glass for sure. Why he has spent so much time glued to an already-struggling Malkin is far beyond my abilities to understand.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Glass is a perfectly solid bottom-6 C, probably more of a good 4C caliber guy, but him getting semi-regular usage with Malkin on L2 is another glowing example of how Sullivan isn't aligning with Dubas on making the roster younger.
With the roster as constructed, there is really zero reason for Tomasino to not be stapled onto Malkin's RW. If not Tomasino, it should be Koivunen from WBS.
With the roster as constructed, there is really zero reason for Tomasino to not be stapled onto Malkin's RW. If not Tomasino, it should be Koivunen from WBS.
BlindWillyMcHurt
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- May 31, 2004
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Yup.
And especially at this point... what in the world is the harm? Like seriously what are they gonna do... make them lose HARDER?
Hell we might even score a few more goals that way, hopefully take Malkin off suicide watch and develop a player while we're at it. Neat!
Like how many players have we seen over the years where we're like "this is obviously NOT the play" and they just... linger there for like 40+ games. f***ing why?
Empoleon8771
Registered User
IMO the F lineup right now should be:
Rakell-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Tomasino
O'Connor-Glass-Beauvillier
Lizotte-Ponomarev-Acciari
The only reason I'm saying it should be this right now is that you need to play Beauvillier, O'Connor and Glass in semi-notable roles to get better returns for them as rentals. As soon as those guys are traded (which they should be trying to do ASAP), you promote guys like McGroarty, Broz, Koivunen and Poulin from WBS. There is zero reason that Nieto or Hayes should be playing and there should be at least one young guy right now on L4.
I'll get some pushback for including Acciari, but I think him being a RHS plus his PKing actually makes it warranted for him to stay in the lineup. I think you probably should have both a lefty and righty faceoff option for a defense-first line like their L4 is, so I think Acciari should stay in until they have a better RHS option to replace him.
Rakell-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Tomasino
O'Connor-Glass-Beauvillier
Lizotte-Ponomarev-Acciari
The only reason I'm saying it should be this right now is that you need to play Beauvillier, O'Connor and Glass in semi-notable roles to get better returns for them as rentals. As soon as those guys are traded (which they should be trying to do ASAP), you promote guys like McGroarty, Broz, Koivunen and Poulin from WBS. There is zero reason that Nieto or Hayes should be playing and there should be at least one young guy right now on L4.
I'll get some pushback for including Acciari, but I think him being a RHS plus his PKing actually makes it warranted for him to stay in the lineup. I think you probably should have both a lefty and righty faceoff option for a defense-first line like their L4 is, so I think Acciari should stay in until they have a better RHS option to replace him.
Dennis Reynolds
I have to have my tools!
What's most frustrating for me is not the player, it's the accountability aspect.
Cody Glass is good on the draw and kills penalties, so he gets far more rope than, say, Puljujarvi, who does neither of those things, yet was more effective in most other aspects of the game. It's some kind of weird cronyism/favoritism because Sully PK'd and took draws when he played, so naturally, he thinks those are the most important parts of the game, when in reality, had the team practiced 3-on-3 and the SO more in the last few years, they probably would have eeked into the playoffs.
Cody Glass is good on the draw and kills penalties, so he gets far more rope than, say, Puljujarvi, who does neither of those things, yet was more effective in most other aspects of the game. It's some kind of weird cronyism/favoritism because Sully PK'd and took draws when he played, so naturally, he thinks those are the most important parts of the game, when in reality, had the team practiced 3-on-3 and the SO more in the last few years, they probably would have eeked into the playoffs.
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