Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXV - Poolman and Poolparty?!?

[Darren McCord]

Hey Pens Fans.

Red Wings fan here looking to bolster our backend.

Would Jonatan Berggren be enough to get Marcus Pettersson? I'd be willing to throw in a pick as well if the initial offer is in the close but not quite territory.

No thanks. A player about to turn 25 on pace for 20 points is not the center piece to a deal for him. Pens have enough guys like him who Sullivan refuses to play.

Pens need a high pick or better prospect as the center part of a deal for Petts.

 

[SirloinUB]

No thanks. A player about to turn 25 on pace for 20 points is not the center piece to a deal for him. Pens have enough guys like him who Sullivan refuses to play.

Pens need a high pick or better prospect as the center part of a deal for Petts.

I figured a young NHL player would be the primary type of asset for the Penguins to target but fair enough and thanks for the feedback.

While Berggren hasn't had a great season he's been better than the counting stats would indicate. He's been a bit snake bitten (primarily teammates not finishing some great chances).

Detroit isn't in a position where they can move pieces like ASP, Danielson, Cossa, 1st so if that's the asking price Detroit has no business being in that mix, even with an extension. If something below that level of prospect can get it done, I would be very interested.

 

[SEALBound]

I figured a young NHL player would be the primary type of asset for the Penguins to target but fair enough and thanks for the feedback.

While Berggren hasn't had a great season he's been better than the counting stats would indicate. He's been a bit snake bitten (primarily teammates not finishing some great chances).

I would imagine that would be in the mold of who Dubas would ask for. A lot of here agreed that Elias Pettersson (the young dman) or Mynio plus a 2nd round pick from Vancouver would be a fair asking price for Pettersson.

I probably wouldn't balk at Berggren+2nd for Pettersson as a deal but I think that value also has an intrinsic assumption that the team trading for Pettersson would also want to resign him. It might be a bit steep as a pure rental but in that case, the Penguins can find a different partner. I would not do it for Berggren alone as I think we already have a couple guys like him.

 

[Gurglesons]

I figured a young NHL player would be the primary type of asset for the Penguins to target but fair enough and thanks for the feedback.

While Berggren hasn't had a great season he's been better than the counting stats would indicate. He's been a bit snake bitten (primarily teammates not finishing some great chances).

Detroit isn't in a position where they can move pieces like ASP, Danielson, Cossa, 1st so if that's the asking price Detroit has no business being in that mix, even with an extension. If something below that level of prospect can get it done, I would be very interested.

Would rather just have a 2nd round pick. Like @SEALBound said if Berggren is there for cap reasons whatever. We can choose to not qualify him.

 

[Gurglesons]

From Pensburgh article re stock up and down this season so far…the first two are obvious, but I guess there were so many “stock downs” they didn’t include Nieto lol…

Anthony Beauvillier — Over the last month, Beauvillier has one goal and no assists and his average ice time has slumped to just over 10 minutes per game (the lowest on the team among forwards in this stretch). He’s become a non-factor on a team with too many passengers.

Cody Glass — Similar to Beauvillier, Glass has been too vanilla this season. He doesn’t stand out, he doesn’t get to dangerous areas with the puck, he just doesn’t do much of anything. That’s resulted in no goals and two assists in the last 14 games this month, which for a player who has been bouncing between the second and third lines isn’t going to cut it.

Noel Acciari and his usage — Acciari is an easy target given the recency effect of giving away the game with his crucial turnover against Tampa, which he readily acknowledged afterwards. Acciari’s averaged almost 14 minutes of ice time in the last month, a lot of that is PK, which has also been struggling lately (eight goals against in the last seven games, to only a 55% success rate). It’s one thing for Acciari to be a lineup regular when the focused area and reasons he are in there are working, but it’s not working right now.

Where have we seen this before?

Oh, that's right.. every f***ing year since 18-19......

 

[Darren McCord]

I figured a young NHL player would be the primary type of asset for the Penguins to target but fair enough and thanks for the feedback.

While Berggren hasn't had a great season he's been better than the counting stats would indicate. He's been a bit snake bitten (primarily teammates not finishing some great chances).

Detroit isn't in a position where they can move pieces like ASP, Danielson, Cossa, 1st so if that's the asking price Detroit has no business being in that mix, even with an extension. If something below that level of prospect can get it done, I would be very interested.

I am not saying no to him being an add but he should not be the center.

I'd rather just 2 2nds and be done with it honestly. Pens just dont need more middling players at that age with limited upside. I would also rather a center or defense prospect.

 

[BillyOcean]

Lol. How does no one else understand this strategy?

We shouldn’t be spending $2M on nothing players in the bottom six….hate that about Dubas…spend some money on the top six and D…keep bottom six under $2M a player and younger players..stop giving out term to goaltenders…end of rant lol

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

In an ideal world I actually am fine with a couple bottom 6ers making decent $. Given they can help drive play.

That way you can call up youngsters across the lineup and they can play with good players. Lizotte (who I’m aware is sub $2M) or Cullen, Hagelin in the old days are guys that you could throw a prospect with IMO.

 

[Gurglesons]

In an ideal world I actually am fine with a couple bottom 6ers making decent $. Given they can help drive play.

That way you can call up youngsters across the lineup and they can play with good players. Lizotte (who I’m aware is sub $2M) or Cullen, Hagelin in the old days are guys that you could throw a prospect with IMO.

Hagelin was acquired to be a top six winger.

That's the thing. It's fine paying guys a little more if they are designated to be top six guys and they are pushed down.

 

[Darren McCord]

In an ideal world I actually am fine with a couple bottom 6ers making decent $. Given they can help drive play.

That way you can call up youngsters across the lineup and they can play with good players. Lizotte (who I’m aware is sub $2M) or Cullen, Hagelin in the old days are guys that you could throw a prospect with IMO.

Ya the problem is when you have half your bottom 6 like that.

I would be fine with
Doc - Lizotte - Thomasino
Prospect - Glass- Prospect
JP

Waive Accari, Neito, Glass

Anyone of Poulin, Gruden, Broz and Pono would be better than those 3 right now because at least they would play with a pulse.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Im very confident they could call up Poulin, Pono and Bemstrom right now and the team wouldnt miss a beat. Its just so annoying that they (Sullivan) refuse to play their best players.

Doc-Lizotte-Bemstrom
Beau/Poulin-Pono-Pulju

That entire 4th line is cheaper than Hayes's salary

 

[pistolpete11]

No thanks. A player about to turn 25 on pace for 20 points is not the center piece to a deal for him. Pens have enough guys like him who Sullivan refuses to play.

Pens need a high pick or better prospect as the center part of a deal for Petts.

I figured a young NHL player would be the primary type of asset for the Penguins to target but fair enough and thanks for the feedback.

While Berggren hasn't had a great season he's been better than the counting stats would indicate. He's been a bit snake bitten (primarily teammates not finishing some great chances).

Detroit isn't in a position where they can move pieces like ASP, Danielson, Cossa, 1st so if that's the asking price Detroit has no business being in that mix, even with an extension. If something below that level of prospect can get it done, I would be very interested.

I'd add that what 'we' want could be different than what the team wants and/or what the team is able to get form other teams.

But yes, I think most if not all on here would be very underwelmed with Berggren.

 

[Gurglesons]

Im very confident they could call up Poulin, Pono and Bemstrom right now and the team wouldnt miss a beat. Its just so annoying that they (Sullivan) refuse to play their best players.

Doc-Lizotte-Bemstrom
Beau/Poulin-Pono-Pulju

That entire 4th line is cheaper than Hayes's salary

I'm fine with them keeping up one of the dorks on the 4th line. Hell, we saw it last night. Acciari went down and Nieto - Lizotte - Beauvillier was actually okay.

 

[SEALBound]

Lol. How does no one else understand this strategy?

Im very confident they could call up Poulin, Pono and Bemstrom right now and the team wouldnt miss a beat. Its just so annoying that they (Sullivan) refuse to play their best players.

Doc-Lizotte-Bemstrom
Beau/Poulin-Pono-Pulju

That entire 4th line is cheaper than Hayes's salary

If pens has erasers, life would be easier. It's fine to have guys on the 4th making $2mil considering where the cap is and the players we have and where the organization is. Cap is about to be $90mil+ next year and we don't have any major resignings nor is it likely we pursue a high dollar impact player. That's not where we are at with competing at the moment.

Hindsight is always 20/20 as well. Last year when Neds was on his single year deal and regularly outplaying Jarry, especially down the stretch, we all wished we would have signed him to a 2-3 year deal. We were able to get him back for two years which, at the time, was a very good resigning as we had no idea (really) what we had in Larsson or Blomqvist. We needed someone to fortify the backup slot and Neds fit the bill.

A bunch of guys we bitch about are about to go away - Gryz, DOC, Nieto, Beauvillier are all UFAs. Pettersson too though I think he's all but traded anyway. So naturally, we will open up the roster spots for some of the guys in your post - Broz, Pono, Poulin, etc. Realistically though, NONE of those guys were on the radar to be productive, full time roster players. We really only get to that point when they do well in the AHL and they get the call when there are injuries. That's how Sheary, Wilson, Rust, Guentzel, Kuhnhackl, etc all made their way on to the roster. Same as Pickering did. The problem is we haven't really seen the significant number of injuries that require such a move. To hit on the point made - we wouldn't miss a beat with between Poulin-Pono-Bemstrom vs Nieto-Lizotte-Acciari - you're probably right so why would we even both? Might actually be better to let those three (or more realistically, two) season in the NHL because both were up earlier in the year and neither we lighting the world on fire. Poulin even went unclaimed.

I get Acciari is frustrating given he makes $2mil for this year next but complaining about a signing made two offseasons ago because a guy in the AHL just this year is ready for full time action (probably...hopefully) is a little...meh.

But I mean, I get it - don't waste cap on lower tier players so that you have cap to sign higher tier players. I get it. Overall, I would support that general statement. At the same time, a sense of proportion is needed. $2mil under a $87mil cap is 2.2%. In 2016, cap was $73mil so that would have been $1.6mil. In 2010, it was $60mil so that would have been $1.32mil. I don't think many people here would have been bitching about a $1.3mil guy on the 4th line in 2010. No one complained about Fehr is 2016 being on the 4th line making $2mil. Those are the going rates of journeymen 4th liners.

Plus, say it's 3 AHL guys. That's roughly $2.5mil for the 3. We currently spend $4.75mil. What are we doing with that extra $2.25mil that is the difference between us being a playoff team and what we have now?

 

[BillyOcean]

If pens has erasers, life would be easier. It's fine to have guys on the 4th making $2mil considering where the cap is and the players we have and where the organization is. Cap is about to be $90mil+ next year and we don't have any major resignings nor is it likely we pursue a high dollar impact player. That's not where we are at with competing at the moment.

Hindsight is always 20/20 as well. Last year when Neds was on his single year deal and regularly outplaying Jarry, especially down the stretch, we all wished we would have signed him to a 2-3 year deal. We were able to get him back for two years which, at the time, was a very good resigning as we had no idea (really) what we had in Larsson or Blomqvist. We needed someone to fortify the backup slot and Neds fit the bill.

A bunch of guys we bitch about are about to go away - Gryz, DOC, Nieto, Beauvillier are all UFAs. Pettersson too though I think he's all but traded anyway. So naturally, we will open up the roster spots for some of the guys in your post - Broz, Pono, Poulin, etc. Realistically though, NONE of those guys were on the radar to be productive, full time roster players. We really only get to that point when they do well in the AHL and they get the call when there are injuries. That's how Sheary, Wilson, Rust, Guentzel, Kuhnhackl, etc all made their way on to the roster. Same as Pickering did. The problem is we haven't really seen the significant number of injuries that require such a move. To hit on the point made - we wouldn't miss a beat with between Poulin-Pono-Bemstrom vs Nieto-Lizotte-Acciari - you're probably right so why would we even both? Might actually be better to let those three (or more realistically, two) season in the NHL because both were up earlier in the year and neither we lighting the world on fire. Poulin even went unclaimed.

I get Acciari is frustrating given he makes $2mil for this year next but complaining about a signing made two offseasons ago because a guy in the AHL just this year is ready for full time action (probably...hopefully) is a little...meh.

But I mean, I get it - don't waste cap on lower tier players so that you have cap to sign higher tier players. I get it. Overall, I would support that general statement. At the same time, a sense of proportion is needed. $2mil under a $87mil cap is 2.2%. In 2016, cap was $73mil so that would have been $1.6mil. In 2010, it was $60mil so that would have been $1.32mil. I don't think many people here would have been bitching about a $1.3mil guy on the 4th line in 2010. No one complained about Fehr is 2016 being on the 4th line making $2mil. Those are the going rates of journeymen 4th liners.

Plus, say it's 3 AHL guys. That's roughly $2.5mil for the 3. We currently spend $4.75mil. What are we doing with that extra $2.25mil that is the difference between us being a playoff team and what we have now?

It's not just saving the money. It's about playing younger players with something to prove who might contribute more than just "doesn't make mistakes" or "a good PKer". Especially the same shoveled garbage that keeps coming in, the "doesn't make mistakes" is never true. That garbage doesn't have anything else to compensate for their mistakes like a younger player maybe would.

Ideally, players from the same organizations minor league system should also be playing using the same training, systems, and philosophies that would give them a leg up in an NHL lineup over a Matt Nieto UFA garbage signing. This helps a team to find an identity, as hopefully the GM has been building a team through the draft ith some sort of philosophy and identity in mind. Not to say the GM also couldn't find those same guys in free agency for the bottom 6, but that choice must be selective.

 

[Gurglesons]

If pens has erasers, life would be easier. It's fine to have guys on the 4th making $2mil considering where the cap is and the players we have and where the organization is. Cap is about to be $90mil+ next year and we don't have any major resignings nor is it likely we pursue a high dollar impact player. That's not where we are at with competing at the moment.

Hindsight is always 20/20 as well. Last year when Neds was on his single year deal and regularly outplaying Jarry, especially down the stretch, we all wished we would have signed him to a 2-3 year deal. We were able to get him back for two years which, at the time, was a very good resigning as we had no idea (really) what we had in Larsson or Blomqvist. We needed someone to fortify the backup slot and Neds fit the bill.

A bunch of guys we bitch about are about to go away - Gryz, DOC, Nieto, Beauvillier are all UFAs. Pettersson too though I think he's all but traded anyway. So naturally, we will open up the roster spots for some of the guys in your post - Broz, Pono, Poulin, etc. Realistically though, NONE of those guys were on the radar to be productive, full time roster players. We really only get to that point when they do well in the AHL and they get the call when there are injuries. That's how Sheary, Wilson, Rust, Guentzel, Kuhnhackl, etc all made their way on to the roster. Same as Pickering did. The problem is we haven't really seen the significant number of injuries that require such a move. To hit on the point made - we wouldn't miss a beat with between Poulin-Pono-Bemstrom vs Nieto-Lizotte-Acciari - you're probably right so why would we even both? Might actually be better to let those three (or more realistically, two) season in the NHL because both were up earlier in the year and neither we lighting the world on fire. Poulin even went unclaimed.

I get Acciari is frustrating given he makes $2mil for this year next but complaining about a signing made two offseasons ago because a guy in the AHL just this year is ready for full time action (probably...hopefully) is a little...meh.

But I mean, I get it - don't waste cap on lower tier players so that you have cap to sign higher tier players. I get it. Overall, I would support that general statement. At the same time, a sense of proportion is needed. $2mil under a $87mil cap is 2.2%. In 2016, cap was $73mil so that would have been $1.6mil. In 2010, it was $60mil so that would have been $1.32mil. I don't think many people here would have been bitching about a $1.3mil guy on the 4th line in 2010. No one complained about Fehr is 2016 being on the 4th line making $2mil. Those are the going rates of journeymen 4th liners.

Plus, say it's 3 AHL guys. That's roughly $2.5mil for the 3. We currently spend $4.75mil. What are we doing with that extra $2.25mil that is the difference between us being a playoff team and what we have now?

No we didn't.

 

[SEALBound]

It's not just saving the money. It's about playing younger players with something to prove who might contribute more than just "doesn't make mistakes" or "a good PKer". Especially the same shoveled garbage that keeps coming in, the "doesn't make mistakes" is never true. That garbage doesn't have anything else to compensate for their mistakes like a younger player maybe would.

Ideally, players from the same organizations minor league system should also be playing using the same training, systems, and philosophies that would give them a leg up in an NHL lineup over a Matt Nieto UFA garbage signing. This helps a team to find an identity, as hopefully the GM has been building a team through the draft ith some sort of philosophy and identity in mind. Not to say the GM also couldn't find those same guys in free agency for the bottom 6, but that choice must be selective.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that at face value but if you dive deeper, it can't mesh well with reality.

I get wanting Nieto out. I am 1000% on board with that. I would waive him today if I had the power and I would 100% bring up a WBS guys and use it at a rotating AHL-NHL position for the sole purpose of getting AHL guys NHL game.

But looking back, it's tough to say at the time of FA "we shouldn't sign Nieto now because in two years, so and so will be ready". Same with Acciari, same with Neds. Same with Jarry, I guess too.

I don't think a line of Poulin-Pono-Bemstrom are going to come up and play in a way that leads to a high level of production which would force Sullivan's hand. I think we'd be lucky if they were an even line. If they came up and were running at even but it was like 5GF and 5GA over 5GP, I'd be inclined to be okay with that though.

More ideally, you waive a guy like Nieto and trade a guy like DOC (because he has value we need to capitalize on) and then pepper in those guys throughout the line, occasionally rotating them around to see what works.

Pono-Lizotte-Beau/Tomasino
Poulin-Hayes-Acciari

Something like that. Then next year, you can base FA signings on how you expect them to do in the NHL based on their limited NHL experience this year. This is where I think Dubas-Sullivan are falling down a bit. Realistically, we have no idea how the likes of Pono, Poulin, Koivunen, Broz, etc will do because we don't have a relevant sample size. I'm inclined to believe there's built in faith with McGroarty though.

 

[Darren McCord]

No we didn't.

I will admit I did with the caveat they traded Jarry. They should have made room for Blomqvist but they didn't and here we are.

Gauthier and Larsson could have handle the AHL and Blomqvist could have been 1B if he needed more reps.

This team can't help blocking young players with lame journeymen

 

[Ulf5]

Who developed Jarry again?

I keep forgetting.

Have you seen him play??? Obviously no one developed him.

 

[Darren McCord]

But looking back, it's tough to say at the time of FA "we shouldn't sign Nieto now because in two years, so and so will be ready". Same with Acciari, same with Neds. Same with Jarry, I guess too.

I mean it's quite easy to say that now and at the time. Nieto was 30 and this team had Hinostroza, Poulin, Gruden and others who could have easily filled that role.

Accari sure hindsight but there was no reason to sign them both being 30+

Hallander left because he was getting passed over.
Sam Houde was a guy who should have been in WBS who just left because he was stuck in Wheeling.

This starts at the top with this team not giving any player a shot besides scrubs that sullivan loves.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah, there’s a real problem with the organizational philosophy and culture here, and I think it’s connected. For example, how many postgames are we going to see players trying to shift the buck and not take responsibility for their play? How many times is the coach going to shrug and say the bounces weren’t there and there’s no need to change? How many times are we going to sign the same kinds of players to even more diminishing returns, hoarding what little value we could get for them because “we still have a chance”?

Those are all connected problems and it all stems from a lack of direction from the coaching and FO, IMO.

Have you seen him play??? Obviously no one developed him.

i keep trying to put him back in the oven but The Law won’t let me.

 

[SEALBound]

I mean it's quite easy to say that now and at the time. Nieto was 30 and this team had Hinostroza, Poulin, Gruden and others who could have easily filled that role.

Accari sure hindsight but there was no reason to sign them both being 30+

Hallander left because he was getting passed over.
Sam Houde was a guy who should have been in WBS who just left because he was stuck in Wheeling.

This starts at the top with this team not giving any player a shot besides scrubs that sullivan loves.

Hallander left for personal reasons. I can't remember the specifics but @Gurglesons posted the article as to why. It wasn't because he was getting passed over. He's even coming back.

I would suggest that none of Hino, Poulin, or to a lesser extent Gruden, are filling the whole Nieto was signed to fill but I understand what you're saying. I would rather have taken my chances with any of them over Nieto. It was my thesis statement that Nieto should not have skated another NHL game for the Penguins. Even this year, I would have preferred Hayes in the lineup.

Bottom line I think it's merely a case of signings not working out as well has they'd hope. Which happens. At 850k for 2 years, it's a minor gamble. I'm still more pissed about guys like Graves and Jarry.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Blaming Nieto/Acciari on Sam Houde leaving Wheeling to sign in Switzerland is the kind of funny agenda pushing I love on this board.

It's just like such a crazy jump in logic just to complain about a guy you don't like.

 

[cygnus47]

Yeah, I don't disagree with that at face value but if you dive deeper, it can't mesh well with reality.

I get wanting Nieto out. I am 1000% on board with that. I would waive him today if I had the power and I would 100% bring up a WBS guys and use it at a rotating AHL-NHL position for the sole purpose of getting AHL guys NHL game.

But looking back, it's tough to say at the time of FA "we shouldn't sign Nieto now because in two years, so and so will be ready". Same with Acciari, same with Neds. Same with Jarry, I guess too.

I don't think a line of Poulin-Pono-Bemstrom are going to come up and play in a way that leads to a high level of production which would force Sullivan's hand. I think we'd be lucky if they were an even line. If they came up and were running at even but it was like 5GF and 5GA over 5GP, I'd be inclined to be okay with that though.

More ideally, you waive a guy like Nieto and trade a guy like DOC (because he has value we need to capitalize on) and then pepper in those guys throughout the line, occasionally rotating them around to see what works.

Pono-Lizotte-Beau/Tomasino
Poulin-Hayes-Acciari

Something like that. Then next year, you can base FA signings on how you expect them to do in the NHL based on their limited NHL experience this year. This is where I think Dubas-Sullivan are falling down a bit. Realistically, we have no idea how the likes of Pono, Poulin, Koivunen, Broz, etc will do because we don't have a relevant sample size. I'm inclined to believe there's built in faith with McGroarty though.

Yeah the normal thing to do is that we're out of the playoffs by the deadline and we clear some roster spots. A couple guys come up after the deadline and play for the rest of the year and solidify a spot. Funnily enough we did that in 2016 too...

Imagine getting the amount of rope Rust got. He wasn't even productive in the AHL.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah the normal thing to do is that we're out of the playoffs by the deadline and we clear some roster spots. A couple guys come up after the deadline and play for the rest of the year and solidify a spot. Funnily enough we did that in 2016 too...

If we are out of a playoff spot, I fully expect Pettersson and DOC to be gone. Then 50/50 on anyone else including Nieto, Acciari, and Beauviller (who apparently there was already an offer for). Then you back fill with return players or guys from WBS.

In 2015-2016, it's amazing the role that well-timed injuries played. Dupuis retiring opened up a legit roster spot. Porter broke his leg. And Malkin getting hurt gave birth to HBK. All things that shaped the playoff roster. HBK being an offensive force in all four series helped, especially in the first round when they were still tweaking the lines.