Prospect Info: '24-'25 Prospects Thread: Generation Z

[DesertPenguin]

They were able to retool better than us from say, 2020. I am happy for them and their fans, more so because it means Ovi WILL break the record which I am excited to see. But I don't get down on the Pens team because the Caps are doing well. This organization placed a premium on the Sid-Geno-Letang relationship. To an extent, that relationship took precedence over on-ice results. For better or for (as we are seeing) worse.

Their ability to retool a bit reminds me a bit of 2016 when we had Dupuis retire due to health and Porter breaks his leg and Malkin gets injured. Those three things allowed younger players to come in and fill the gap and it allowed the formation of HBK.

The Capitals "lucked" out a bit because their star players were not "at the same level" of Sid and Geno, sans Ovechkin, who they have clearly decided to continue to build around. They had Kuznetsov who had performance, attitude, and potential drug issues and they were able to ship him off, luckily, to Carolina. Oshie aged out and instead of being on the roster taking up space, he's on LTIRetire. Backstrom had by all means, an albatross of a deal relative to performance but again, they luck out by having him on LTIRetire. That is a TON of cap space to be able to reallocate. They were also able to recognize that they weren't gonna be contenders so they were able to ship off a top pairing dman in Orlov. Not unlike us with Pettersson. A decent comparison would have been us with Dumo. If we trade him out for a first before the wheels fell off and use the picks on a guy like Nils Lundqvist or Sandin, things might be different.

Then they hit on McMichael and Protas. Wish we'd have hit on Poulin, Lauzon, Bjorkqvist, Hallander...I mean, these are the guys we would be needing on the roster right now making an impact so that we didn't have to go get dorks like Acciari but...thems the breaks sometimes.

Washington also had several successful hits. Dylan Strome was a cast away they took a chance on and it worked out well. I wanted us to sign him but if IIRC, that was met with harsh criticism here. Jokes on us. PLD isn't the pile he was in LA and they got aggressive and got Chychrun. Now, if memory serves me correctly, Sullivan wanted Chychrun to boost the back end but the GM at the time thought Granlund was the answer instead. Ooops, amiright?

The Pens are trying to follow the Caps blueprint, they're just a couple years behind it and maybe a couple years too late for Sid-Geno-Letang. Had Hextall committed to this, or Dubas done it immediately when he came in, we'd be closer in line with the Caps right now. We can still get there though. Don't bet against workaholic Sid still producing till he's 40.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Man it's fun to imagine what those years would've been like if Hossa stuck around with Sid through their primes. Got a whole lotta Chuck Kobasew, Chris Bourque, Cal O'Reilly, Taylor Pyatt, Steve Sullivan, Alex Ponikarovsky.

If Sid's healthy and Hossa sticks around, this team probably has another couple of SCF appearances under their belt between that 1st Cup of the era and the B2Bs. Hossa was tailor made for Sid's game, man.

Except Orpik doesn't come back. Cooke probably doesn't get signed. Maybe as a result Whitney doesn't get traded for Kunitz. Domino after Domino.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Except Orpik doesn't come back. Cooke probably doesn't get signed. Maybe as a result Whitney doesn't get traded for Kunitz. Domino after Domino.

Oh man not Orpik.

 

[Gurglesons]

Except Orpik doesn't come back. Cooke probably doesn't get signed. Maybe as a result Whitney doesn't get traded for Kunitz. Domino after Domino.

So we are in an even better situation?

The Pens are trying to follow the Caps blueprint, they're just a couple years behind it and maybe a couple years too late for Sid-Geno-Letang. Had Hextall committed to this, or Dubas done it immediately when he came in, we'd be closer in line with the Caps right now. We can still get there though. Don't bet against workaholic Sid still producing till he's 40.

Hextall actually did commit to the same style of build as the Caps to some degree his last year here.

Blueger went out. Matheson and Marino went out to get "cost controlled" assets in Poehling, Ty Smith and Petry.

The player evaluation was just off. That being said Poehling has a role in Philly.

 

[SEALBound]

The Pens are trying to follow the Caps blueprint, they're just a couple years behind it and maybe a couple years too late for Sid-Geno-Letang. Had Hextall committed to this, or Dubas done it immediately when he came in, we'd be closer in line with the Caps right now. We can still get there though. Don't bet against workaholic Sid still producing till he's 40.

I disagree there a bit. I don't think direction of the team was Hextall's issue, he was just flatout bad at nearly everything he did. When he took over in Feb 21, I think the team was in decent condition and very much capable of making the playoffs and competing for a cup. So I don't think following the path of selling off valuable assets like the Caps were willing to do because they weren't as strong, would have worked out well. That would have been closing the door way too early and I can't imagine that would have sat well with Sid or ownership at the time.

To be in line with the Caps right now, we needed picks from 2019-2021 to pan out. Washington has McMichael and Protas doing well so that's the same as needing two of Hallander, Poulin, Legare, and Broz to be actual roster players making similar impacts. Hindsight for JR would have been - DO NOT trade for Kapanen. Keep the pick and take a player. Hard to know who we would have picked but Mercer, Zary, Braden Schneider were all taken in that range.

Next you don't ship off two quality 2nd pairing guys for what eventually become anchors that you have to pay to move. In that 2019-2021, the Caps were willing to be risky and they shipped out a ton of quality players - Burakovsky, Stephenson, Dillion, Siegenthaler, and I think that's when they had Kovalchuk even? That would have been us trading Rust, Hallander, Dumo, Marino, etc. All guys we needed to make the playoffs and compete. Hindsight sucks because we didn't win and I wish we would have, lol.

Taking the risk on Dylan Strome was big too. He wasn't qualified and had been pretty underwhelming his entire career. Taking the risk paid off big. When was the last time we did that? Course, that was when Backstrom was a huge question mark so they had the need. We had Malkin for 2C so our need for a guy like that wasn''t there.

The only way we "get back" is by getting two studs in the next two drafts. There aren't any trades or signings that's fixing this. Father time comes for us all.

 

[JTG]

Kind of funny, this trade helped us more in 2017 than it did in 2013 because the 3rd that came with Brendan Morrow ended up being Jake.

That is correct. Not getting a return for Bjugstad and McCann killed a trade line that was like 20 years old. I believe Patrick Lalime was involved in the string. I like researching stuff like that when I'm bored.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

It isn't the Hossa trade, it's the Dupuis trade.

 

[SEALBound]

I'm talking pure rental, I should have clarified. I'm all for player swaps with guys who are under contract - Goligoski for Neal, Hornqvist for Neal...all day. The Hossa deal was completed because it was tremendous. Angelo Esposito was the big part of that really. Christenson and Armstrong were bottom 6 guys. They were hoping Hossa would sign. You have to chase that fish.

The next big one was Ponikarovsky for Caputi and someone else. Brendan Morrow for Joe Morrow and a 3rd. Douglas Murray for TWO 2nds. Iginla for a 1st. This one deadline f***ed Shero all up. Morrow was a decent enough defenseman who has had an NHL career, then traded away a 1st, two 2nds, and a 3rd along with 3 prospects who never amounted to much.

Arguably though, that was one of the roster Penguin rosters in the Shero/Bylsma era. The problem was, he opted to slow and old rather than speed. I remember the Islanders giving us fits in the 1st round due to their forechecking speed. Lack of mobility to penetrate into the middle did us in against Boston.

 

[PensFutures]

That is correct. Not getting a return for Bjugstad and McCann killed a trade line that was like 20 years old. I believe Patrick Lalime was involved in the string. I like researching stuff like that when I'm bored.

Does this count?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It isn't the Hossa trade, it's the Dupuis trade.

f*** you, Geno.

 

[JTG]

Does this count?
View attachment 976260

We'll take it. It lives!

 

[Jag68Sid87]

So we are in an even better situation?



Hextall actually did commit to the same style of build as the Caps to some degree his last year here.

Blueger went out. Matheson and Marino went out to get "cost controlled" assets in Poehling, Ty Smith and Petry.

The player evaluation was just off. That being said Poehling has a role in Philly.

I remember being super excited after those deals. Ty Smith was a guy I really was happy they got. And I never liked Matheson.

Those deals did not pan out but was it player evaluation or poor development? I mean you look at those guys today and you say evaluation, but sometimes a guy needs to make the most of it at the time he gets that one last shot. If not, it's basically journeyman city for him. We did not handle Smith properly at all.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I remember being super excited after those deals. Ty Smith was a guy I really was happy they got. And I never liked Matheson.

Those deals did not pan out but was it player evaluation or poor development? I mean you look at those guys today and you say evaluation, but sometimes a guy needs to make the most of it at the time he gets that one last shot. If not, it's basically journeyman city for him. We did not handle Smith properly at all.

Smith was a bust for the same reason Pouliot was a bust: they couldn't skate at the NHL level.

Smith and Pouliot were basically the same exact player.

 

[chethejet]

I like the idea of using all ways to bring in talent. Offer sheets may not work but I think making one is not bad. the risk is you don't get that player and your offer drives up the cost of an existing roster player. Dubas has to move to getting ready make players as well as picks.

 

[Gurglesons]

I remember being super excited after those deals. Ty Smith was a guy I really was happy they got. And I never liked Matheson.

Those deals did not pan out but was it player evaluation or poor development? I mean you look at those guys today and you say evaluation, but sometimes a guy needs to make the most of it at the time he gets that one last shot. If not, it's basically journeyman city for him. We did not handle Smith properly at all.

Probably a combination fo both. But, as much as I think the Sullivan / Hextall relationship nonsense is overblown, I think realistically you need to identify the type of players Sullivan will utilize if you aren't going to fire him.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I like the idea of using all ways to bring in talent. Offer sheets may not work but I think making one is not bad. the risk is you don't get that player and your offer drives up the cost of an existing roster player. Dubas has to move to getting ready make players as well as picks.

Speaking of, any decent college UFAs out there?

 

[JTG]

Speaking of, any decent college UFAs out there?

It sure would be nice to hit on a guy like this or a flyer from Europe.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Probably a combination fo both. But, as much as I think the Sullivan / Hextall relationship nonsense is overblown, I think realistically you need to identify the type of players Sullivan will utilize if you aren't going to fire him.

I think it's clear the Pens have had an amateur scouting and player development issue over the years that spans multiple GMs. Sullivan absolutely plays a role there, but players had been bombing out before they even reached potential NHL status.

Since 2014, which was Rutherford's first draft, the Pens have made 57 draft picks.

Six have played 50 or more games in the NHL.

Even discounting the 17 players selected in the last three drafts, who are still in their development stage, that's 6 out of 40 players.

They're not even getting decent AHL players out of their late round picks. I understand it's hard to get top prospects when you're trading away first round and second round picks to acquire established NHL players to compete for Cups. But recent picks like Isaac Beliveau and Sergei Murashov have played more AHL games than some of the guys from 2015-2020.

 

[Jacob]

Yeah there’s still value in late picks even if they never make the NHL. As long as they show a general upward trajectory you can get value out of them in a trade. They won’t all develop exponentially but we’ve had a lot that you could write off way too soon.

 

[Peat]

That is correct. Not getting a return for Bjugstad and McCann killed a trade line that was like 20 years old. I believe Patrick Lalime was involved in the string. I like researching stuff like that when I'm bored.

But they did get a return for McCann. Team got Filip Hallander back and the pick that became Emil Jarventie.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Yeah the Penguins are still firmly in the position of building up the foundation of their prospect pool. I've said this a bunch, but you absolutely do not want to be a "Bedard in Chicago" type of situation where you stripped everything down to bottom out but then have nothing to support the elite star(s) you got. Putting too much on a young player's plate too quickly is how you ruin the development of young players. I'm surprised the Penguins didn't do that themselves with Fleury, they sure as hell tried to early in his career

The only future core guys the Penguins have in their system right now are McGroarty and Brunicke, and both of those guys project to be more like supporting core players IMO. Or how I'd differentiate between the different "core" levels:

-Franchise core players: Crosby and Malkin
-Core player: Letang and Guentzel
-Supporting core player: Staal and Neal

Those two project to end up in the Staal and Neal tier.

I think it would be an unbelievably fantastic outcome for both Brunicke and McGroarty to be Staal/Neal tier players

I would be very happy if both hit and became like RH Daley and Fedontenko.

Agree on foundation being built — but if like 3 or 4 of our current prospects are able to play 500 games as plus/quality regulars we should be pumped.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Speaking of, any decent college UFAs out there?

TJ Hughes from UM is only one I know. Really, really nice college player. Would be shocked if he doesn’t get NHL deal (if he wants). He’s not the biggest or best skater but not bad on either count. Probably a AAAA type talent wise but I’d be happy to roll dice on him.

Friedman talked about a kid named Luke Haymes out of Dartmouth who has attracted a lot of NHL interest.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think it would be an unbelievably fantastic outcome for both Brunicke and McGroarty to be Staal/Neal tier players

I would be very happy if both hit and became like RH Daley and Fedontenko.

Agree on foundation being built — but if like 3 or 4 of our current prospects are able to play 500 games as plus/quality regulars we should be pumped.

Yeah when I say upside there, I mean that as a best case scenario. I think Brunicke's best case scenario is a defenseman like Parayko while McGroarty's best case scenario is Stone. And I think the Stone comparison is extremely optimistic for his level but I just really like the stylistic comparison there.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Yeah when I say upside there, I mean that as a best case scenario. I think Brunicke's best case scenario is a defenseman like Parayko while McGroarty's best case scenario is Stone. And I think the Stone comparison is extremely optimistic for his level but I just really like the stylistic comparison there.

What I would view as a home run from what we have

two 40+ point middle 6ers/2nd liners
3C
Bottom 6 energy winger

complimentary top 4 D (MP or Dumo type)
4/5Dish PMD
Solid 6D

Obv unlikely to happen and I would still be happy with half (just 3-4 players) of that. But point is I am hoping current pool can become complimentary cost controlled depth NHLers like the Talbot, Kennedy, Armstrong, Orpik wave we had before getting Sid, Fleury, Malkin, Letang, Staal.