Is there some special insight you have over the hockey world (players, coaches, GMs, writers) as to the significantly higher value placed on goalscoring vs. playmaking/2-way play?
24/25 McDavid vs. 14/15 Crosby
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Is there some special insight you have over the hockey world (players, coaches, GMs, writers) as to the significantly higher value placed on goalscoring vs. playmaking/2-way play?
McDavid is having his worst season ever, you could argue his first 2 years but the game has changed and he was kid.
He is currently playing his worst hockey ever, since January first he has 19 points in 18 games.
Since January 26th, a whole month when posting this, he is -11, which is worst in the entire league.
He is in a generational slump right now.
He is currently playing his worst hockey ever, since January first he has 19 points in 18 games.
Since January 26th, a whole month when posting this, he is -11, which is worst in the entire league.
He is in a generational slump right now.
I'm sorry you're just a crosby fanboy personified, like you have serious problems comparing that trash to mcdavid right now. I watched both in their primes and peaks. mcdavid has dusted crosbys legacy with or without a cup. mcdavid probably has 4 seasons better then sids best.not only that the competition was trash during that year which is even worse for your argument
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Video Nasty
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- Mar 12, 2017
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McDavid showing signs of mortality in 2024-2025 is still being a level of player greater than Crosby in 2014-2015.
That said, there’s no argument that he’s not having the worst regular season of his career. To me, he still has lingering injury issues, but I’m not interested in trotting out excuses for him because his resume doesn’t demand them.
It will be easier to swallow if he has another scintillating postseason that ends in another Conn Smythe, but this time paired with a Cup.
The difference with season 10 of their careers is that McDavid has been automatic up to this point.
Streaks that seem likely to be snapped this year:
8 consecutive seasons of finishing at worst top 3 in raw points.
9 consecutive seasons of finishing minimum top 3 in PPG.
8 consecutive seasons of finishing minimum top 2 in PPG.
8 consecutive seasons of finishing minimum top 5 in Hart voting.
That’s virtually his entire career and will be a run that likely ends up being 40-50% of his overall career. Big difference when highlighting why certain seasons for certain players are seen as failures.
That said, there’s no argument that he’s not having the worst regular season of his career. To me, he still has lingering injury issues, but I’m not interested in trotting out excuses for him because his resume doesn’t demand them.
It will be easier to swallow if he has another scintillating postseason that ends in another Conn Smythe, but this time paired with a Cup.
The difference with season 10 of their careers is that McDavid has been automatic up to this point.
Streaks that seem likely to be snapped this year:
8 consecutive seasons of finishing at worst top 3 in raw points.
9 consecutive seasons of finishing minimum top 3 in PPG.
8 consecutive seasons of finishing minimum top 2 in PPG.
8 consecutive seasons of finishing minimum top 5 in Hart voting.
That’s virtually his entire career and will be a run that likely ends up being 40-50% of his overall career. Big difference when highlighting why certain seasons for certain players are seen as failures.
Interesting, had to go look that up....kind of a random time period, but whatever. When I looked up stats for that period and sorted for worst +/-, Stamkos stuck out big time. McDavid is the worst at -11 through 9 games, but he at least has 8pts. Stamkos, over 9 games, had 0 goals and 0 assists and is -10.
Crosby has been awesome. McDavid is a way more prolific scorer. I don’t think we there’s a real argument to be had about who will have had a better individual career when it’s all said and done if McDavid remains healthy. And Crosby fans don’t need to be upset about it or try to argue otherwise. Both guys are a treat to watch.
The fails to take into account total ice time for the top players though. And just the fact that when everyone in the league isn’t scoring much it says more about the environment than the individuals. Actually it says everything about the environment really.
Paul4587
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It’s Crosby. McDavid by his own standards has been terrible this year - he’s still probably just a top 10 player in the league where as Crosby was probably still top 3-5 in 14-15.
For McDavid this is his worst season by far since 2019-20 when he was recovering from the leg injury.
For McDavid this is his worst season by far since 2019-20 when he was recovering from the leg injury.
The distribution of these points has changed, which is omitted from doing this piecemeal breakdown. For example, PP% is higher now, so top line players can get more points in less TOI with the man advantage, freeing up more ice time at ES.
WalterLundy
Registered User
I don’t think doing an ice time adjustment would do much for me personally. You play what you play in my mind.
I would be tempted to believe you about the environment over the individuals until you see some of these names. A 36 year old Pavel Datsyuk had a higher points per game than Ovi or Malkin did. Jiri Hudler and Jakub Voracek were essentially matching Malkin and Ovechkin in points per game. Nick Foligno outdid Claude Giroux. Jamie Benn WON the scoring title. Tyler Seguin essentially matched Sidney Crosby per game.
To me it is entirely evident that while the environment for scoring was certainly low, the top guys failed miserably. In the first dead puck era players like Jagr and Forsberg achieved separation from these types of players. I will hold the Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin/Kane group to a higher standard. Their inability to create separation per game from the likes of Foligno/Hudler/Voracek/Tyler Johnson/geriatric Datsyuk shows me all I need to see. It was a black eye on the product.
This is a year that was so bad that I never want to revisit anything resembling it in the future.
No amount of consideration going into an adjustment method can overcome how hot garbage this year was compared to anything we have seen since 2019. Nothing can be done to salvage the failures of the stars in this season. You know that hopefully.
The ice time is one of the main reasons the top scorers scored less then, even relative to the league goals per game at the time.
Also, in the first dead puck era look at the ice time of the top scorers. More ice time and powerplay time equals more points across the board. Case closed.
Jonathan Huberdeau essentially matched McDavid in points per game in his Art Ross winning season. These little examples do not really mean all that much, especially when scoring was so suppressed at the top.
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WalterLundy
Registered User
The 4 highest skaters for points in 2015 still played roughly 20 minutes per game with the 4 highest right now playing 21 and some change on average. I don’t personally see that as anything that can salvage this and make it close to any of the recent seasons we have seen in the league. Someone else can give it a go if they want.
In 2022 Huberdeau had his best season that he will ever have by leaps and bounds and McDavid still did win the art Ross in a very average year for him. That Huberdeau year still adjusts to around 15 points higher than Benn’s 2015 in two less games and McDavid in a relatively average 2022 campaign bested that.
Sure more ice time will cause points to rise across the board to an extent but Jagr in 1999 for example actually created separation from good players. A year in which you lose an Art Ross to Jamie Benn is different than that. I wish it wasn’t the case because I was genuinely upset that year that Crosby didn’t win. Should have been a guarantee even with a few missed games.
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- Nov 12, 2021
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If you can’t understand the nuances of a team sport and inputs from multiple players being responsible for team success, then you’re either being obtuse or you aren’t capable of having an intelligent discussion.
filinski77
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- Feb 12, 2017
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Look at Pearson finalists and see where the deviations from top-3 in points are.
2006: Top-3 in points were the finalists.
2007: Crosby/Lecavalier were top-3 in points, and then Luongo rounds it out. Thornton had 6 more points than Lecavalier did, but Lecavalier was the best goalscorer in the league (as opposed to Thorntons 92 points), and he made the Pearson finalist.
2008: Top-3 in points were the finalists. Interesting to note that Iginla got the finalist nod over Datsyuk who had 1 point less, but 19 less goals. Datsyuk was the best defensive forward in the league - but being the best goal scorer > best defensive forward in this case clearly.
2009: Top-2 in points were finalists. Datsyuk (4th in points) did get the finalist nod over Crosby (3rd in points). Noteworthy that Crosby and Datsyuks goalscoring was equal - so this argument would actually be that Datsyuks defensive side put him over the edge since everything else was equal. Also note that even though Malkin had 3 more points than Ovi (slightly lower points/gp), Ovechkins huge goal dominance (21 goals over Malkin) is what won Ovi the Pearson.
2010: Top-3 in points were the finalists.
2011: Sedin and Perry were finalists and top-3 in points. Stamkos (who was 2nd in goals) got the other finalist spot (5th in points) over St Louis and H Sedin who both had more points (and were #1/2 in assists). Seems easy to say that his goalscoring was much more valued.
2012: Malkin and Stamkos got nominated, Giroux who was also 3rd in points (2nd in assists) and had a better point/gp than Stamkos (and only 4 less points) got left off the Pearson finalist compared to Stamkos who had a world-class goalscoring season despite very close overall in points/p/gp).
2013: 4 players in top-3 cause of tie for 3rd. Ovi lead in goals, Crosby lead in points/gp, and St. Louis lead in points - those 3 got nominated. Stamkos left off.
2014: Top-3 in points were the finalists.
2015: Price wins Pearson, and Benn (Art Ross), and Ovechkin (1st in goals but only 4th in points) get the other 2 Pearson nominations. Ovechkin also finishes 2nd in Hart - cementing him as the #1 forward that year. So despite Ovi finishing 4th that year in points, his goal dominance is clearly seen as more valuable.
2016: Top-2 in points were the finalists (with Holtby as a goalie rounding it out)
2017: McDavid and Crosby were top-2 in points and also 2 finalists. Note that Burns was the other finalist despite only scoring 4 more points than Hedman (who is a way better defensive D-man). The big difference between Burns and Hedman? Burns had 29 goals and Hedman had 16.
2018: McDavid wins (art Ross win), with Hall and Mackinnon rounding out the finalists. Weird AF year since neither Hall or Mackinnon were that great defensively (and Kopitar won the Selke despite having 1 less point than Hall). Clear that goalscoring, playmaking or defensive play had no bearring here to put anyone above anyone else.
2019: Top-3 in points were the finalists.
2020: Finally the first example where playmaking is clearly seen as more valuable. Drai wins (1st in points), McDavid who is 2nd in points (and assists) left off (largely because of split votes with Drai and not because of lower goalscoring). And then Panarin and Mackinnon round out finalists over Pastrnak despite Pastrnak having same/more points and more goals.
2021: McDavid wins (huge point lead), and Draisaitl who was 2nd in points gets votes split. Matthews gets a nomination despite being 5th in points and hardly any assists - but had a huge goalscoring lead. Crosby rounds it out, was 10th in points, 13th in goals, and 14th in points. He also wasn't any better defensively than Marchand (3rd in points) or Stone (3rd in Selke voting and only had 1 less point) - so clearly a name-recognition finalist when you break it down. Either way - clear that goalscoring was favorited in the Pearson placing when you look at Matthews
So yes - I think there is pretty good proof that goalscoring is seen as more valuable (not only statistically/mathematically, but also perception).
2022: Matthews wins despite only finishing 6th in points (note he had a killer goalscoring year). McDavid (art ross) is a finalist, and Josi is a finalist.
2023: Mcdavid wins (huge point lead, 1st in goals). Karlsson is a finalist as well. Pastrnak takes the last finalist spot (tied with Kucherov for 3rd in points). Pastrnak clearly got it due to his 61 goal season despite Kucherov having the same points (Mackinnon having also having 2 less points). Main difference being that Pastrnak had a huge goal lead on those 2.
2025: Mackinnon and Kucherov were #1 and #2 in points. Matthews had waaaay less points than McDavid, but also had a huge goal lead that year and over double the goals than McDavid (despite McDavid hitting that legendary 100 assist mark).
Yeah Jagr had lots of ice time and powerplay time in 1999 as well. It’s the combination of the low scoring and ice time at the top, nothing more.
Do you think it’s clear that all the best two-way players win a lot more Cups than the best goal scorers? I’m not sure Ovechkin brought so much more value to a team than Datsyuk at his peak as you seem to believe.
