'24-25 Former Predators Thread

[ILikeItILoveIt]

I completely get why people would be on the fire Bruno train first, but I believe Trotz is not suited to be an NHL GM and should be the first to go. I also believe that is not going to happen any time soon.

Since our start in 1998, our organization has been almost majestic in its leadership transitions. One of Poile and Trotz has been with us for 26 years. When Trotz was let go, it was the definition of majestic. Poile hated to do it but "it was time". Trotz moved on with class and went on to win a Cup and have consistent success with mutliple organizations. When it was time for Poile to retire, Barry came home and was majestically handed the steering wheel while Poile headed to the HOF.

Preds ownership has relied on these two guys for everything hockey. The results have been very good. We've been a consistent playoff team, and we sell tickets. A total feel-good for the Good Ship Pred.

Barry's first year exceeded expectations. The GM transition seemed as flawless as the Rinne-Saros handoff. We'll continue getting HOF GMing with our homeboy.

Until now .....

Booting Trotz would mean ownership would have to take more direct responsibility for our on-ice performance. They'd have to play-the-field for a new GM. They've never been faced with this situation. Trotz can't fail. He's Barry freakin' Trotz. Poile's #1 Son. A graduate and golden alum of Pred U.

That's why Trotz will get a few more years to make sense out of what he's gotten us into. Maybe we rebound. It's hard to see how that happens. On paper, it should have already happened. His reactions to the turmoil have created more turmoil.

If Trotz ultimately sucks as a GM, the franchise is toast for at least 5 years. 2 more years to finally declare he sucks, and 3 more to rebuild from the sticks.

 

[101st_fan]

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/maple-leafs-philippe-myers-inks-two-year-extension/

 

[Kat Predator]

Since our start in 1998, our organization has been almost majestic in its leadership transitions. One of Poile and Trotz has been with us for 26 years. When Trotz was let go, it was the definition of majestic. Poile hated to do it but "it was time". Trotz moved on with class and went on to win a Cup and have consistent success with mutliple organizations. When it was time for Poile to retire, Barry came home and was majestically handed the steering wheel while Poile headed to the HOF.

Preds ownership has relied on these two guys for everything hockey. The results have been very good. We've been a consistent playoff team, and we sell tickets. A total feel-good for the Good Ship Pred.

Barry's first year exceeded expectations. The GM transition seemed as flawless as the Rinne-Saros handoff. We'll continue getting HOF GMing with our homeboy.

Until now .....

Booting Trotz would mean ownership would have to take more direct responsibility for our on-ice performance. They'd have to play-the-field for a new GM. They've never been faced with this situation. Trotz can't fail. He's Barry freakin' Trotz. Poile's #1 Son. A graduate and golden alum of Pred U.

That's why Trotz will get a few more years to make sense out of what he's gotten us into. Maybe we rebound. It's hard to see how that happens. On paper, it should have already happened. His reactions to the turmoil have created more turmoil.

If Trotz ultimately sucks as a GM, the franchise is toast for at least 5 years. 2 more years to finally declare he sucks, and 3 more to rebuild from the sticks.

5 years seems optimistic. Skippin' through the daisies on a sunny summer day sort of optimistic.

I like that optimism.

 

[Viqsi]

Since our start in 1998, our organization has been almost majestic in its leadership transitions. One of Poile and Trotz has been with us for 26 years. When Trotz was let go, it was the definition of majestic. Poile hated to do it but "it was time". Trotz moved on with class and went on to win a Cup and have consistent success with mutliple organizations. When it was time for Poile to retire, Barry came home and was majestically handed the steering wheel while Poile headed to the HOF.

Preds ownership has relied on these two guys for everything hockey. The results have been very good. We've been a consistent playoff team, and we sell tickets. A total feel-good for the Good Ship Pred.

Barry's first year exceeded expectations. The GM transition seemed as flawless as the Rinne-Saros handoff. We'll continue getting HOF GMing with our homeboy.

Until now .....

Booting Trotz would mean ownership would have to take more direct responsibility for our on-ice performance. They'd have to play-the-field for a new GM. They've never been faced with this situation. Trotz can't fail. He's Barry freakin' Trotz. Poile's #1 Son. A graduate and golden alum of Pred U.

That's why Trotz will get a few more years to make sense out of what he's gotten us into. Maybe we rebound. It's hard to see how that happens. On paper, it should have already happened. His reactions to the turmoil have created more turmoil.

If Trotz ultimately sucks as a GM, the franchise is toast for at least 5 years. 2 more years to finally declare he sucks, and 3 more to rebuild from the sticks.

Five years?

I mean, two to figure out he sucks, sure. But three to rebuild? If the trend continues, then that would be a lightning-fast turnaround.

 

[Kat Predator]

Five years?

I mean, two to figure out he sucks, sure. But three to rebuild? If the trend continues, then that would be a lightning-fast turnaround.

In 5 years, the big name UFAs that we signed the last couple years are either retired, gone, or just trying to hang on to a spot in the lineup ala Corey Perry.

We've totally gutted our mid-term pipeline this year, so there is nothing coming from that direction. They'll have to be replaced with bargain bin reclamation projects.

And if we're building through the draft and we draft this year's Bedard, it'll take the teenage kid three or four years to become a man and learn to play against men at minimum. And an actual rebuild is obviously not simply getting the next Bedard. If the other 19 guys suck, you're going to lose and be a bottom feeder. So even if we go Oilers draft luck and hit Bedards 4 years in a row, they wouldn't be ready and we might not have the right components anyway.

Then there is the big monkey wrench of having Bruno managing all of this. There is no reason to have any confidence that guy can develop kids or assemble a lineup that is coherent. It's really anyone's guess if guys like Svech will turn into consistent NHL players AND we don't just push them out an airlock the instant they start to struggle a bit.

 

[Viqsi]

And if we're building through the draft and we draft this year's Bedard

There isn't one.

Then there is the big monkey wrench of having Bruno managing all of this.

Assuming that "two years to figure out he sucks" timetable for Trotz, Bruno would also be long gone. Not that that helps much, but...

 

[Kat Predator]

There isn't one.

Nope.

Assuming that "two years to figure out he sucks" timetable for Trotz, Bruno would also be long gone. Not that that helps much, but...

Should have typed "Bruno/Trotz". Until they are both gone, I don't trust them.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Tommasino has cooled off. Parsinnen iff to horrible start in Colorado. Maybe they just aren’t that good?

 

[Kat Predator]

Tommasino has cooled off. Parsinnen iff to horrible start in Colorado. Maybe they just aren’t that good?

Tomasino hovered around 0.5 P/G with us and is 7 points in 16 games in Pittsburgh. So he's doing his thing.

Parssinen got a point tonight. That Colorado 4th line is pretty sad. They play him more than his wingers, who are two recent callups. I wouldn't expect him to be scoring a ton of goals even with NHL wingers though.

More to the point though, both Colorado and Pittsburgh actually play these guys. When they were on the worst team in the NHL (standings-wise), they sat in the pressbox. Seems like they might not have been as bad as Trotzenette wanted them to be.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Tomasino hovered around 0.5 P/G with us and is 7 points in 16 games in Pittsburgh. So he's doing his thing.

Parssinen got a point tonight. That Colorado 4th line is pretty sad. They play him more than his wingers, who are two recent callups. I wouldn't expect him to be scoring a ton of goals even with NHL wingers though.

More to the point though, both Colorado and Pittsburgh actually play these guys. When they were on the worst team in the NHL (standings-wise), they sat in the pressbox. Seems like they might not have been as bad as Trotzenette wanted them to be.

Playing them doesn’t seem to be helping their new clubs that much though. Parsinnen averaging less than 10 minutes a game with awful corsi. Tommer cooled off after hot start. Not saying they aren’t NHL players, just that they don’t appear to be anything special. We coulda grabbed Kaliev today on waivers who is more of the same. None of them are worth lamenting and we seem to have gotten fair value.

Fabbro is the one I don’t understand at all, as rhd who can play in top 4 tend to be in high demand. How did we bungle him so badly?

 

[herzausstein]

Playing them doesn’t seem to be helping their new clubs that much though. Parsinnen averaging less than 10 minutes a game with awful corsi. Tommer cooled off after hot start. Not saying they aren’t NHL players, just that they don’t appear to be anything special. We coulda grabbed Kaliev today on waivers who is more of the same. None of them are worth lamenting and we seem to have gotten fair value.

Fabbro is the one I don’t understand at all, as rhd who can play in top 4 tend to be in high demand. How did we bungle him so badly?

Meh... im more upset about not giving them legitimate shots. Tomasino around 0.5 PPG would put him around on this team in production. Trade nyquist at the deadline and Tomasino just slides in.

There is a real trend of bringing young players up, seeing them perform well, then when they come back next season their role and TOI is reduced (Tomasino, Pärssinen, Novak, Evangelista, Tolvanen, Fabbro). When it keeps happening year after year, it doesnt put my hopes up for any of our prospects. Instead, i now expect them all to just wither away in the AHL or end up in the bottom 6 in Nashville

 

[Armourboy]

Playing them doesn’t seem to be helping their new clubs that much though. Parsinnen averaging less than 10 minutes a game with awful corsi. Tommer cooled off after hot start. Not saying they aren’t NHL players, just that they don’t appear to be anything special. We coulda grabbed Kaliev today on waivers who is more of the same. None of them are worth lamenting and we seem to have gotten fair value.

Fabbro is the one I don’t understand at all, as rhd who can play in top 4 tend to be in high demand. How did we bungle him so badly?

I thought people learned several years ago that Corsi as a measuring tool isn't worth a damn? The stat can be gamed so badly that its nearly useless. Prime example was Craig Smith, who if you went on Corsi would have thought he was Gretzky. I think you are the first person on these boards I've seen bring it up in 2-3 years.

That said I don't care what team you put Parsinnen on, if you give him less than 10 minutes a game and crappy wingers he's not going to do anything. He ain't Crosby or McDavid who could turn Colton Sissons into a 40g scorer. Just like 95% of the rest of the players in the NHL he needs someone decent to play with to produce.

Tomasino probably is what he is, but a .5 ppg secondary scorer would currently probably be pretty high up the list in production on this team. I'm pretty sure it probably is up there with or is higher than anyone we don't have on the top line currently.

For some reason people think guys have got to put up 90 points a season or they aren't that useful. Shoot this team is short on just 50 point guys atm.

 

[herzausstein]

I thought people learned several years ago that Corsi as a measuring tool isn't worth a damn? The stat can be gamed so badly that its nearly useless. Prime example was Craig Smith, who if you went on Corsi would have thought he was Gretzky. I think you are the first person on these boards I've seen bring it up in 2-3 years.

That said I don't care what team you put Parsinnen on, if you give him less than 10 minutes a game and crappy wingers he's not going to do anything. He ain't Crosby or McDavid who could turn Colton Sissons into a 40g scorer. Just like 95% of the rest of the players in the NHL he needs someone decent to play with to produce.

Tomasino probably is what he is, but a .5 ppg secondary scorer would currently probably be pretty high up the list in production on this team. I'm pretty sure it probably is up there with or is higher than anyone we don't have on the top line currently.

For some reason people think guys have got to put up 90 points a season or they aren't that useful. Shoot this team is short on just 50 point guys atm.

6th... just behind Marchessault, forsberg, stamkos, RoR, and Josi.

To piggy back on what ive said above, every one of the younger players have seen the lowest TOI of the careers this season some by as little as a minute per game like Evangelista/Novak, some by closer to 3 minutes like Fabbro, and some in-between like Pärssinen and Tomasino. Tolvanen likewise had career low minutes before being waived years ago. We have done this with every young up and coming player over the past several seasons. Start them out and they look good. Then reduce their roles and time on ice and they look worse and we wonder what happened. Pärssinen is the only player im not confident will stick in the NHL. His skating and speed isnt great which isnt ideal for a center. You absolutely have to use him with the proper wingers for it to work out

 

[Scoresberg]

Not saying they aren’t NHL players, just that they don’t appear to be anything special.

They probably aren't but neither are guys like McCarron or Hinostroza who they're giving the spots to. I'd argue there's more upside in trying to go with the kids instead of those guys who aren't going to be in the league anymore in a year or two.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

They probably aren't but neither are guys like McCarron or Hinostroza who they're giving the spots to. I'd argue there's more upside in trying to go with the kids instead of those guys who aren't going to be in the league anymore in a year or two.

I think this is the key point right here. None of Tolvanen, Tomasino, or Parssinen are difference-making players. They're all pretty interchangeable depth guys, ones you could find on the UFA market if you ever needed to fill those spots. Having them as full time players in our lineup today wouldn't make our team appreciably better. But... the key is we developed them, had them on hand so that we shouldn't have needed to fill those spots with anybody else, and in the case of Tolvanen and Tomasino invested 1st round draft picks on them. Then replaced them with minor league tweeners who aren't any better and tanked their trade value entirely before dumping them off. It's just bad asset management regardless. If you didn't like those picks, you could have traded them 3 years ago when their value was closer to peak, the 1st round shine hadn't worn off and their initial scoring performances were more impressive, rather than sidelining them and tanking their asset value.

Anyway, indeed they aren't great players, but then: neither are Smith, McCarron, Jankowski, Hinostroza, and Wiesblatt. (Or Foudy, Fagemo, Gurianov, Beauvillier, Sanford, Asplund, etc types we previously auditioned).

Fabbro does seem to be the main exception, where he is showing himself to be a legitimate top-4 RD, particularly at a time when we have absolutely cratered our organizational depth at that position. He's the one player in the whole bunch who legitimately could have made a bit of a difference if we had kept him and used him like Columbus is using him.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I thought people learned several years ago that Corsi as a measuring tool isn't worth a damn? The stat can be gamed so badly that its nearly useless. Prime example was Craig Smith, who if you went on Corsi would have thought he was Gretzky. I think you are the first person on these boards I've seen bring it up in 2-3 years.

That said I don't care what team you put Parsinnen on, if you give him less than 10 minutes a game and crappy wingers he's not going to do anything. He ain't Crosby or McDavid who could turn Colton Sissons into a 40g scorer. Just like 95% of the rest of the players in the NHL he needs someone decent to play with to produce.

Tomasino probably is what he is, but a .5 ppg secondary scorer would currently probably be pretty high up the list in production on this team. I'm pretty sure it probably is up there with or is higher than anyone we don't have on the top line currently.

For some reason people think guys have got to put up 90 points a season or they aren't that useful. Shoot this team is short on just 50 point guys atm.

I don’t think Corsi is be all end all, but it’s like +/- in that when you are super low it’s a troubling sign.

And the issue with guy like tommasino is that if he isn’t scoring he isn’t adding any value. 40 points and physical play or excellent defense is quite valuable; 40 points without is just empty calories. It’s why guys like him and toivanen were bad draft picks. You produce 60+ points you are legit threat, but otherwise you are disposable.

 

[Kat Predator]

I don’t think Corsica is be all end all, but it’s like +/- in that when you are super low it’s a troubling sign.

And the issue with guy like tommasino is that if he isn’t scoring he isn’t adding any value. 40 points and physical play or excellent defense is quite valuable; 40 points without is just empty calories. It’s why guys like him and toivanen were bad draft picks. You produce 60+ points you are legit threat, but otherwise you are disposable.

If someone thinks Tolvanen isn't physical and not a complete two-way player, then they seriously just aren't watching him play.

 

[wmupreds]

If someone thinks Tolvanen isn't physical and not a complete two-way player, then they seriously just aren't watching him play.

Yeah, part of the reason the Tolvanen waiving was so confusing was that he actually had bought in to becoming the two way guy the organization wanted. He's actually one of the most prolific hitters in the entire NHL by rate this year which I don't think is super important but combined with his consistently solid defensive metrics it's hard to understand what the Preds wanted from him.

 

[Scoresberg]

Yeah, part of the reason the Tolvanen waiving was so confusing was that he actually had bought in to becoming the two way guy the organization wanted. He's actually one of the most prolific hitters in the entire NHL by rate this year which I don't think is super important but combined with his consistently solid defensive metrics it's hard to understand what the Preds wanted from him.

He said in an interview that he had no idea what was expected of him during the end of his times in Nashville. In one game he was on the top-six and was expected to score, then the next game he's on the bottom-six expected to grind out, then after that he's in the press-box. He said he found it super-confusing.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

If someone thinks Tolvanen isn't physical and not a complete two-way player, then they seriously just aren't watching him play.

I will own that. That was my view from afar before moving here. But still feels right on tommasino.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I will own that. That was my view from afar before moving here. But still feels right on tommasino.

I think it's right in terms of what Tomasino has plateaued out as, anyhow. I just wonder how much our "development" process with him contributed to that plateauing? Because he had a great D+1 season with 100pts in junior, then a great Covid season as a junior-aged player in the AHL, a good WJC showing, and even a great rookie season with us given his 32 pts as a 20-year old playing frequently on the 4th line. Up to that point, I think we had legit hope that he really could turn into more like a 60-pt winger, regular top-6 forward, and therefore we could overlook his lack of other dimensions.

But then something happened. He got sent back to Milwaukee, shuffled back and forth, basically spent the next 2 seasons and into the start of this one in purgatory. Unless he breaks out again with the Penguins, I guess we'll never know if him levelling off instead as more of a soft 0.5ppg player was his ultimate upside all along, or if our handling of him contributed to him flat-lining at that level? Anyway, clearly our staff didn't think very highly of him, hence the purgatory treatment, and either way it sure would have been nice to have traded him in say 2021 or 2022 when he was still being looked at as a 1st round talent, as opposed to now when he's barely looked at as above waiver fodder.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I think it's right in terms of what Tomasino has plateaued out as, anyhow. I just wonder how much our "development" process with him contributed to that plateauing? Because he had a great D+1 season with 100pts in junior, then a great Covid season as a junior-aged player in the AHL, a good WJC showing, and even a great rookie season with us given his 32 pts as a 20-year old playing frequently on the 4th line. Up to that point, I think we had legit hope that he really could turn into more like a 60-pt winger, regular top-6 forward, and therefore we could overlook his lack of other dimensions.

But then something happened. He got sent back to Milwaukee, shuffled back and forth, basically spent the next 2 seasons and into the start of this one in purgatory. Unless he breaks out again with the Penguins, I guess we'll never know if him levelling off instead as more of a soft 0.5ppg player was his ultimate upside all along, or if our handling of him contributed to him flat-lining at that level? Anyway, clearly our staff didn't think very highly of him, hence the purgatory treatment, and either way it sure would have been nice to have traded him in say 2021 or 2022 when he was still being looked at as a 1st round talent, as opposed to now when he's barely looked at as above waiver fodder.

That makes sense.

 

[beardawg]

Fabbro certainly should not have been waived but I'm feeling pretty OK about Parssinen and Tomasino moves. Frustrating that we couldn't develop them further or packaged them when they had higher value

 

[Armourboy]

I don’t think Corsi is be all end all, but it’s like +/- in that when you are super low it’s a troubling sign.

And the issue with guy like tommasino is that if he isn’t scoring he isn’t adding any value. 40 points and physical play or excellent defense is quite valuable; 40 points without is just empty calories. It’s why guys like him and toivanen were bad draft picks. You produce 60+ points you are legit threat, but otherwise you are disposable.

Tolvanen definitely wasn't a bad draft pick and I don't think Tomasino was either. They were both drafted late in the first round, and once you get that low you are basically just rolling the dice. At that position you hope they turn into a useful player, no one who looks at drafting in that position expects that pick to be a top talent. You might hope they develop into that, but it's not the same drafted in the top 10.

 

[Kat Predator]

I think it's right in terms of what Tomasino has plateaued out as, anyhow. I just wonder how much our "development" process with him contributed to that plateauing? Because he had a great D+1 season with 100pts in junior, then a great Covid season as a junior-aged player in the AHL, a good WJC showing, and even a great rookie season with us given his 32 pts as a 20-year old playing frequently on the 4th line. Up to that point, I think we had legit hope that he really could turn into more like a 60-pt winger, regular top-6 forward, and therefore we could overlook his lack of other dimensions.

But then something happened. He got sent back to Milwaukee, shuffled back and forth, basically spent the next 2 seasons and into the start of this one in purgatory. Unless he breaks out again with the Penguins, I guess we'll never know if him levelling off instead as more of a soft 0.5ppg player was his ultimate upside all along, or if our handling of him contributed to him flat-lining at that level? Anyway, clearly our staff didn't think very highly of him, hence the purgatory treatment, and either way it sure would have been nice to have traded him in say 2021 or 2022 when he was still being looked at as a 1st round talent, as opposed to now when he's barely looked at as above waiver fodder.

It could be he'll never improve.

OTOH, he's still pretty young. So there is a chance (good or poor) that with some consistent playing time and with a guy like Malkin, that he might hit that next gear to be a .6, .7, or even .75 P/G sort of forward.