24/25 English Cup thread

[Savant]

Idk exactly, but I can't remember them ever winning in it. They definitely wore it in the loss to Liverpool last year.

If we're serious about competing for the title this year, then we need to spend this month. Go out and pay the Nico Williams release clause and try to convince him. If he doesn't want to move, then fine, but there's no good reason we couldn't spend ~60M on him.

Everything I’ve seen in Nico Williams - transfer fee not a problem for any teams, but he (allegedly) has very high wages, and is very happy in Bilbao/happy to wait for Barcelona. If there was going to be a chance to go get him, it may be now while Barca has egg on its face about the Olmo thing; but then again, we just saw them run riot on Real Madrid so it’s hard to say if he will move or not. I have other thoughts on this that I will save for transfer thread if it comes necessarily.

Arteta has actually spent less than most (below table is gross spend and net spend since his first full season) - less than Chelsea, Spurs, and United who we've been performing significantly better than. On par with City (gross spend) who already had a billion dollar squad, and more than Liverpool who also already had a PL/CL title winning squad as opposed to the full rebuild that Arteta needed to do.

Has he spent a lot? Yes. Has he spent the money better than most? Also yes. Is he being criticized (seemingly way more than other clubs/managers that have spent more) for not winning the PL? Also yes.

That’s fine, but also I do not think people (not you) should be isolating comparing Summer 2023 spend to Summer 2024 to try and make a point about this

But now it'll be more ammo for the false narrative that Arteta is a problem/can't win trophies, when in reality he's been great for Arsenal. Not sure how you can blame him when his team missed like 3-4 big chances inside the 6 yard box. Today was on the players, not Arteta.

I have my issues with Arteta and I don’t particularly like him, but he isn’t my problem. I also think it’s silly if people think he is bad. i think he’s corny and I don’t like the culture he’s built there but arsenal could be doing a hell of a lot worse

 

[Epictetus]

He's a good manager and obviously very intelligent, but it's fair to ask if he's the guy to match the fanbase's ambitions.

 

[KJS14]

Everything I’ve seen in Nico Williams - transfer fee not a problem for any teams, but he (allegedly) has very high wages, and is very happy in Bilbao/happy to wait for Barcelona. If there was going to be a chance to go get him, it may be now while Barca has egg on its face about the Olmo thing; but then again, we just saw them run riot on Real Madrid so it’s hard to say if he will move or not. I have other thoughts on this that I will save for transfer thread if it comes necessarily.

Agree with this, but no reason for Arsenal to not trigger the clause and make a run at him. As you said, now is the perfect time with Barca's hands tied. If he doesn't want to come, then fine, but go try.

We'd have to pay high wages, but Havertz is reportedly on 280k/wk, so we can afford it. We're going to have to pay up for Saka, Saliba, Gabriel, etc next contracts at some point too, so wage structure is just an excuse. Liverpool has a wage structure, but they paid their top guys, just like we'll need to.

That’s fine, but also I do not think people (not you) should be isolating comparing Summer 2023 spend to Summer 2024 to try and make a point about this

Yeah, that's fair. I do think we should have spent more this summer to bring in an attacker, but we did supposedly try with Sesko and Nico Williams.

I have my issues with Arteta and I don’t particularly like him, but he isn’t my problem. I also think it’s silly if people think he is bad. i think he’s corny and I don’t like the culture he’s built there but arsenal could be doing a hell of a lot worse

Yeah, he's a total cornball. I cringe at some of the stuff he says (a lot even), but ultimately he's an amazing tactician - one of the best in the world right now.

Arsenal fans have been overreacting to our less than stellar start to this season and I get that rival fans are going to make fun until he wins the league or CL. But every other team aside from City and Liverpool would kick their managers to the curb in a half second to have Arteta.

 

[KJS14]

He's a good manager and obviously very intelligent, but it's fair to ask if he's the guy to match the fanbase's ambitions.

What exactly has he done to not match the ambitions? Of all people, I'd expect Liverpool fans to understand given it took Klopp 4-5 years to win a major trophy.

Do you expect him to put the ball in the net himself?

 

[robertmac43]

Tough draw already this early, unfortunate.

Not happy on the Brighton side either.

 

[Savant]

Agree with this, but no reason for Arsenal to not trigger the clause and make a run at him. As you said, now is the perfect time with Barca's hands tied. If he doesn't want to come, then fine, but go try.

I mean my club significantly blundered by letting Yoro go to United because they thought it was a foregone conclusion he’d go to Madrid. Especially Long term that one is going to look very bad. Hell LFC love Nico too (who doesn’t) but they clearly haven’t learned from the Yoro incident.

We'd have to pay high wages, but Havertz is reportedly on 280k/wk, so we can afford it. We're going to have to pay up for Saka, Saliba, Gabriel, etc next contracts at some point too, so wage structure is just an excuse. Liverpool has a wage structure, but they paid their top guys, just like we'll need to.

Wages structures are made to be inevitably broken. The problem that Arsenal are going to have is all those guys are going to want more than Havertz. That’s going to add up real quick.

Yeah, that's fair. I do think we should have spent more this summer to bring in an attacker, but we did supposedly try with Sesko and Nico Williams.

Yeah, he's a total cornball. I cringe at some of the stuff he says (a lot even), but ultimately he's an amazing tactician - one of the best in the world right now.

Arsenal fans have been overreacting to our less than stellar start to this season and I get that rival fans are going to make fun until he wins the league or CL. But every other team aside from City and Liverpool would kick their managers to the curb in a half second to have Arteta.

You know I actually am curious about what teams would trade their current manager for Arteta.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I do believe Arsenal had the best collection of talent (starting 11) the past two seasons in the EPL but they were lacking a true striker as well as more depth especially at midfield & wings.

From what I have watched of Arsenal this year, it's pretty clear and obvious that Martinelli and Havertz (while they have some great games from time to time) are not clinical enough. They are also very reliant on Saka to provide that spark offensively. Defensively, I feel Arsenal have been doing very good. Saliba has had a few bad moments but as a unit they are solid. They are still very hard to score on and Raya has been great.

What I do not like about them is the manager (not the tactics) but what he says to the media. He is always claiming they are the best team and how they are always hard done or targetted by the referees or other outside factors. Winning the league and/or trophies is very hard and no team will be perfect for a full season but hearing him talk you would believe that Arsenal are the less fortunate team in the world and they have dominated all their games. While they have had a few incidents that seem quite unfair to them. The attitude of the manager and their players seem more like victims instead of looking at the incidents in the proper way and learn from the mistake and not repeating them. Yes, for instance, it is 100% true that the kicking away the ball away is so arbitrary and the standard of refeering in england is awul on that specific issue. They can feel that they got punished and some time other team have not, I still feel that the players have not learned from it, they will still kick away the ball and they still waste time and still complain a lot the referee. I do think Arteta is a great manager but he is lacking composure and self awareness which triggle down to the players. I do sense that it will eventually click for them and they will win a lot but it might not be this season.

 

[KJS14]

The problem that Arsenal are going to have is all those guys are going to want more than Havertz. That’s going to add up real quick.

Don't think that's necessarily true, because I believe Havertz inflated wage is due to the contract Chelsea gave him first. He was never going to take a pay cut.

But we have room to pay our top guys in that 200k-250k/wk range. Our wages/turnover ratio has been lower than the other top teams.

You know I actually am curious about what teams would trade their current manager for Arteta.

The answer should be everyone except City and Liverpool. And I'd take Arteta over Slot, but I get why Liverpool fans would pass for now.

 

[S E P H]

Arteta has actually spent less than most (below table is gross spend and net spend since his first full season) - less than Chelsea, Spurs, and United who we've been performing significantly better than. On par with City (gross spend) who already had a billion dollar squad, and more than Liverpool who also already had a PL/CL title winning squad as opposed to the full rebuild that Arteta needed to do.

Has he spent a lot? Yes. Has he spent the money better than most? Also yes. Is he being criticized (seemingly way more than other clubs/managers that have spent more) for not winning the PL? Also yes.



To be clear, today's loss was pathetic.

But now it'll be more ammo for the false narrative that Arteta is a problem/can't win trophies, when in reality he's been great for Arsenal. Not sure how you can blame him when his team missed like 3-4 big chances inside the 6 yard box. Today was on the players, not Arteta.

The real tale with this graph is all those clubs were spending money the entire decade Arsenal was penny-pinching on top of that. Spending 560 million is still very little compared to what Liverpool spent the entire time. The only club that did not outspend Arsenal has been Brighton since they were in the Championship for the past fourteen or so years before coming up.

People complaining about Arteta as a coach are pretty pathetic, but he changed his tactics compared to the past couple of seasons. There is a great video on The Athletic's YouTube page discussing how Mikel is preventing the players from rushing too deep in the offensive zone, causing the team to get beat on the counterattack. That is why we keep passing around the box for ten minutes, we are built to wear teams down and break them that way, which isn't a recipe for success when playing against a club like Newcastle that can handle that pressure. Nonetheless, he deserves blame for his transfers because I look at a team like KFC and they keep hitting on most of their transfer, compared to us who buy players like Zinchenko and Jesus, realise they ain't good enough, and now we want to ship them out 2-4 years later.

 

[Savant]

Don't think that's necessarily true, because I believe Havertz inflated wage is due to the contract Chelsea gave him first. He was never going to take a pay cut.
But we have room to pay our top guys in that 200k-250k/wk range. Our wages/turnover ratio has been lower than the other top teams.

Respectfully, I would shocked if the guys you named took a discount because of an inherited contract from Chelsea. That’s not their problem. And they are better now than Havertz now. Beck they are better now than when Havertz got that contract. I’d be firing my agent if he was trying to get me to take less than that.

The answer should be everyone except City and Liverpool. And I'd take Arteta over Slot, but I get why Liverpool fans would pass for now.

I am just curious now. I think it’s an interesting ask. Even if we want to say the jury is out on Slot (which is certainly fair), he’s a much better personality fit for Liverpool than Arteta would be. I would not trade, but I am not saying that to diss Arteta (primarily anyway)

 

[KJS14]

People complaining about Arteta as a coach are pretty pathetic, but he changed his tactics compared to the past couple of seasons. There is a great video on The Athletic's YouTube page discussing how Mikel is preventing the players from rushing too deep in the offensive zone, causing the team to get beat on the counterattack. That is why we keep passing around the box for ten minutes, we are built to wear teams down and break them that way, which isn't a recipe for success when playing against a club like Newcastle that can handle that pressure.

He changed their tactics last year and then they scored the most goals and highest goal difference in club history last year.

Nonetheless, he deserves blame for his transfers because I look at a team like KFC and they keep hitting on most of their transfer, compared to us who buy players like Zinchenko and Jesus, realise they ain't good enough, and now we want to ship them out 2-4 years later.

Zinchenko and Jesus were key starters in the squad that got us back into the CL. Zinchenko was a driving force in the team that finished 2nd two years ago, but we quickly outgrew him and that's fine. Jesus was fantastic for us playing as a fluid, interchanging striker until he injured his knee at the World Cup, and he's still a quality squad player (sucked to see him get injured again today).

In all honesty, what transfer has Arsenal missed on under Arteta? Fabio Vieira?

People are calling Havertz a terrible signing even though he had 20 G+A in the league last year. Sure, he was a bum today, but meanwhile 100M Jack Grealish got a standing ovation for scoring a penalty against Salford City for his first goal in over a year. And I could throw darts at a random listing of Man United signings over the past decade and hit 10 bigger busts than Havertz.

Respectfully, I would shocked if the guys you named took a discount because of an inherited contract from Chelsea. That’s not their problem. And they are better now than Havertz now. Beck they are better now than when Havertz got that contract. I’d be firing my agent if he was trying to get me to take less than that.

I'm not expecting us to be penny pinching Saka/Odegaard/Saliba/Gabriel, and I'd be fine with them on that size wages. But I also don't think it's as simple as "you gave one guy 280k one time, so this is your new wage structure." Regardless, my original point was that we can afford to give Nico Williams that kind of wage, so go try and get him.

I am just curious now. I think it’s an interesting ask. Even if we want to say the jury is out on Slot (which is certainly fair), he’s a much better personality fit for Liverpool than Arteta would be. I would not trade, but I am not saying that to diss Arteta (primarily anyway)

Klopp and Pep have pulled the same kind of stuff that Arteta does. Arteta bounces back and forth between talking like a robot and his corny expressions. If you're taking everything he says at face value, then we could do that for any manager.

All that matters to me is he's a fantastic tactical manager, our players seem to love playing for him, he truly loves our club, and he seems like a genuinely good person.

 

[Savant]

In all honesty, what transfer has Arsenal missed on under Arteta? Fabio Vieira?

I’ve been told you have have had a horrible window last summer

I'm not expecting us to be penny pinching Saka/Odegaard/Saliba/Gabriel, and I'd be fine with them on that size wages. But I also don't think it's as simple as "you gave one guy 280k one time, so this is your new wage structure." Regardless, my original point was that we can afford to give Nico Williams that kind of wage, so go try and get him.

Sure it’s just a matter of how many times you are resetting the wage structure. We are going through this now. Arsenal might be in a better spot with this because their guys are younger, but there is going to be what about a half dozen guys with wage starting with a 3 coming up? It’s doable but could get hairy

Klopp and Pep have pulled the same kind of stuff that Arteta does. Arteta bounces back and forth between talking like a robot and his corny expressions. If you're taking everything he says at face value, then we could do that for any manager.

I am not going to get in the weeds on this, but in its most simple form, Klopp and Pep (for lack of a better word) earned the right to do this by backing it up with major silverware. Arteta simply has not. Win a PL, Win a UCL, it gives you a lot more credibility. Don’t even mean this as an insult, but that’s why it’s received differently.

All that matters to me is he's a fantastic tactical manager, our players seem to love playing for him, he truly loves our club, and he seems like a genuinely good person.

Again not going to get into the weeds on this, but a genuinely good person is not handing the Thomas Partey situation the way that he has. You are allowed to have a different definition to this than I do. But to me, no absolutely not going to call him a good person

 

[KJS14]

I’ve been told you have have had a horrible window last summer

It wasn't a stellar or earth shattering window, but I wouldn't say that to you. But if we're talking about the actual signings - Calafiori looks great and Merino has been ok (I do wish we signed a bit different profile 8).

I am not going to get in the weeds on this, but in its most simple form, Klopp and Pep (for lack of a better word) earned the right to do this by backing it up with major silverware. Arteta simply has not. Win a PL, Win a UCL, it gives you a lot more credibility. Don’t even mean this as an insult, but that’s why it’s received differently.

If people want to get their panties in a bunch over him saying "we played better than the opposition today and our performance deserved a win, but we didn't convert our chances" then that's their issue. He's not wrong. You don't need to earn the right to truthfully say your team outplayed the opposition but lost.

Again not going to get into the weeds on this, but a genuinely good person is not handing the Thomas Partey situation the way that he has. You are allowed to have a different definition to this than I do. But to me, no absolutely not going to call him a good person

He's not a genuinely good person because he hasn't taken the law / justice system into his own hands? We've talked the Partey issue at length several times, so I don't see the point in doing that again, but I guess we should also call a bunch of Chelsea managers terrible people because they played Marcos Alonso. Hell, we should call Kante a horrible person for ever sharing a dressing room with the guy.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

 

[Savant]

It wasn't a stellar or earth shattering window, but I wouldn't say that to you. But if we're talking about the actual signings - Calafiori looks great and Merino has been ok (I do wish we signed a bit different profile 8).

They it to SEPH

If people want to get their panties in a bunch over him saying "we played better than the opposition today and our performance deserved a win, but we didn't convert our chances" then that's their issue. He's not wrong. You don't need to earn the right to truthfully say your team outplayed the opposition but lost.

But again comes down to credibility/perception. If people think Arteta has not earned the right to talk a title winner, then I think that is also fair.

He's not a genuinely good person because he hasn't taken the law / justice system into his own hands? We've talked the Partey issue at length several times, so I don't see the point in doing that again, but I guess we should also call a bunch of Chelsea managers terrible people because they played Marcos Alonso. Hell, we should call Kante a horrible person for ever sharing a dressing room with the guy.

I am not able to associate being a good person to defending someone accused of that, especially so vehemently. I am not going to be doing mental gymnastics to try to justify it either. If you can get there, go right ahead. I am not going to be doing it.

 

[Jussi]