2025 NHL Draft: Lose a ton for Porter Martone

[Celly4Celebrini]

Based on how condescending you're being here (and how condescending you were when you raised this point before), I was surprised to look at their actual birthdays and see that you're mostly wrong about it as well.

Smith was born 03/17/05. Hagens was born 11/03/06. Smith was 226 days older than Hagens on the date of their first games with Boston College. That's closer to 1 year than it is to 0.

If Smith were like 26 days older than Hagens on the first game of their season, you'd be on the mark here and the condescension may be at least somewhat justified. But in the real world, where Smith was 226 days older, it is more accurate to say "Smith was a year older" than it is to say "they were the same age."

It may be most accurate to say "Smith was in his D+1, but was not quite a full year older than Hagens, so the advantage of D+1 Vs. D+0 may be slightly overstated." And I do think this context might be worth considering. But the way you're bringing it up is completely off the mark. The stance that other posters are taking (which, as cooldude mentions, really is just the standard draft year convention) is more correct than yours is in this particular case.

i looked at their birthdays. Sure its closer to 1 year, but assuming they started hockey as early as they could, they would have 13 total seasons. As a Canadian, youll have to bare with me here for age groupings.

They would have been eligible for U11 the year they turned 9. U13 the year they turned 11. U18 the year they turned 15. If they were born the same year, they would have grown up playing together, but with different draft years due to the legality in signing NHL contracts. I'm saying D+0 and D+1 when comparing across early vs late birth years is very misleading, and again the only reason it's used this way is because of the legal issues with an NHL contract.

Take the NBA for example, when players have to play at least 1 year of college before declaring. You don't have people comparing late birthdays to early birthdays of the next year but rather based on "freshman season vs sophmore" etc. Thats the point i am trying to make, evaluate freshman seasons as freshman seasons.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

i looked at their birthdays. Sure its closer to 1 year, but assuming they started hockey as early as they could, they would have 13 total seasons. As a Canadian, youll have to bare with me here for age groupings.

They would have been eligible for U11 the year they turned 9. U13 the year they turned 11. U18 the year they turned 15. If they were born the same year, they would have grown up playing together, but with different draft years due to the legality in signing NHL contracts. I'm saying D+0 and D+1 when comparing across early vs late birth years is very misleading, and again the only reason it's used this way is because of the legal issues with an NHL contract.

Take the NBA for example, when players have to play at least 1 year of college before declaring. You don't have people comparing late birthdays to early birthdays of the next year but rather based on "freshman season vs sophmore" etc. Thats the point i am trying to make, evaluate freshman seasons as freshman seasons.

The Canadian age groupings that you're using is just as arbitrary as the NHL's D+0 Vs. D+1 groupings. Without any reason to believe any one grouping or "cutoff date" is better, it's just easiest to use the convention that everybody else does.

The point that you raise regarding experience is fair, but the correct way to phrase this would be to say "Smith and Hagens actually had the same experience up to this point: 2 years of NTDP/USHL, but Smith had a significant advantage being 226 days older." That's not just something anybody should be ignoring.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Hagens isn't a good fit for us but everyone in this thread trying to contort the facts until they're convinced that we shouldn't take Hagens at 3rd overall at the very latest is clinical insanity.

James Hagens is much better than Will Smith. James Hagens is better than Porter Martone. James Hagens is much, much, much better than Anton Frondell.

Come on, people, get it together.

 

[gaucholoco3]

This debate has been had endless times across endless prospect threads and it usually ends up that D+0 and D+1 is just easier to baseline off of. It's not that important that you should get this mad about it...

It makes sense when comparing draft picks but it doesn’t mean much when it comes to actually comparing hockey experience. Since youth hockey is all by birth year Hagens and Smith both played college in their 18 year old birth year. It just happens that the NHL has a age cutoff in September (which is needed to prevent 17 year olds in training camp) so Smith was drafted after is 17 year old season and Hagens will be drafted after his 18 year old season.

Hagens effectively gets an extra season of hockey before being drafted which is why many scouts and NHL clubs discount players born after the September cutoff slightly.

This is what makes Celebrini, Bedard, and Schaefer more impressive compared to Hagens, Levshunov, and Fantilli.

 

[coooldude]

It makes sense when comparing draft picks but it doesn’t mean much when it comes to actually comparing hockey experience. Since youth hockey is all by birth year Hagens and Smith both played college in their 18 year old birth year. It just happens that the NHL has a age cutoff in September (which is needed to prevent 17 year olds in training camp) so Smith was drafted after is 17 year old season and Hagens will be drafted after his 18 year old season.

Hagens effectively gets an extra season of hockey before being drafted which is why many scouts and NHL clubs discount players born after the September cutoff slightly.

This is what makes Celebrini, Bedard, and Schaefer more impressive compared to Hagens, Levshunov, and Fantilli.

As JTR has said repeatedly on this thread, it's fine to take it into consideration, but it's not a big enough factor for @Celly4Celebrini to have been a jerk about it to me when I used D+0 and D+1.

The fact is that Hagens is widely seen as a better prospect than Smith by folks outside the org. We can make any number of arguments why the points totals matter or why Perreault and Leonard doing worse this year matters but it won't change that fact. And anyway, they are quite comparable even if Hagens is better, and comparable makes him a worse fit for the org, but he's not going to go 5-7th overall. He'll probably go 1st, 2nd, or a long shot at 3rd.

 

[gaucholoco3]

The Canadian age groupings that you're using is just as arbitrary as the NHL's D+0 Vs. D+1 groupings. Without any reason to believe any one grouping or "cutoff date" is better, it's just easiest to use the convention that everybody else does.

The point that you raise regarding experience is fair, but the correct way to phrase this would be to say "Smith and Hagens actually had the same experience up to this point: 2 years of NTDP/USHL, but Smith had a significant advantage being 226 days older." That's not just something anybody should be ignoring.

While grouping by birth year is arbitrary like any other grouping it as mentioned ties into experience. In USA hockey players can’t play up in age before 13 due to checking so Hagens and Smith had the same number of seasons playing checking “real” hockey before going to college so the seasons should be compared as the same and not more impressive for Hagens just because he gets an extra season before getting drafted.

This is why what Celebrini did was so impressive and should have been a sign of how generational he was to skip a year and play college when he should have been a young HS senior.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

While grouping by birth year is arbitrary like any other grouping it as mentioned ties into experience. In USA hockey players can’t play up in age before 13 due to checking so Hagens and Smith had the same number of seasons playing checking “real” hockey before going to college so the seasons should be compared as the same and not more impressive for Hagens just because he gets an extra season before getting drafted.

This is why what Celebrini did was so impressive and should have been a sign of how generational he was to skip a year and play college when he should have been a young HS senior.

Hagens might get an “extra season” but he is 7-8 months younger in each of his seasons. If you choose to look at it this way, it is still clearly more impressive for Hagens.

 

[gaucholoco3]

As JTR has said repeatedly on this thread, it's fine to take it into consideration, but it's not a big enough factor for @Celly4Celebrini to have been a jerk about it to me when I used D+0 and D+1.

The fact is that Hagens is widely seen as a better prospect than Smith by folks outside the org. We can make any number of arguments why the points totals matter or why Perreault and Leonard doing worse this year matters but it won't change that fact. And anyway, they are quite comparable even if Hagens is better, and comparable makes him a worse fit for the org, but he's not going to go 5-7th overall. He'll probably go 1st, 2nd, or a long shot at 3rd.

I actually disagree that Hagens would be widely seen as the better prospect than Smith if Smith had the luxury of being drafted after his freshman season.

While Hagens is more impressive with the scouts and eye test (skating and 2-way game) what Smith did as a freshman if done before being drafted would put him on the same level as Hagens and maybe put him ahead as he out produced Hagens in his final USNDT season and as a freshman in college. Yes Hagens had a better first year in the USNDT than Smith but I don’t know if that would carry as much weight.

Smith put up 71 points as a college freshman and had the same number of points as Eichel. If he put up 71 points before being drafted he would definitely be seen as a typical 1st overall level pick.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Hagens might get an “extra season” but he is 7-8 months younger in each of his seasons. If you choose to look at it this way, it is still clearly more impressive for Hagens.

Yes that is true but Hagens is not even coming close to the production of Smith as a 17 year old and 18 year old.

This is why Eichel getting 71 points the same as Smith while being 10 months younger is more impressive.

Getting a full season of high level coaching is more impactful to development than 7 months development as 17/18 year olds especially considering kids can hit puberty at wildly different stages in their life.

 

[wickedwitch]

All three of Leonard, Perreault, and Smith had their point totals helped by their chemistry and familiarity.

 

[gaucholoco3]

All three of Leonard, Perreault, and Smith had their point totals helped by their chemistry and familiarity.

True but how much ice time do they get this season vs last year. I haven’t paid attention to BC this season but BC rolled 4 lines equally last season.

For example Celebrini probably played at least 5 min per game more than Smith last season which makes what Smith did even more impressive.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Anyone who's watched both Smith and Hagens knows Hagens is clearly more talented. Smith is great, but he's not at that level.

 

[GRANdSharks]

Hagens is a very talented prospect and while I would prefer Schaefer personally he is right up there with him in terms of talent. Wouldn't be the most ideal prospect for the sharks but often times these things work themselves out. Its a good draft for the sharks to be bottom 4 because as long as we hit that range we will get a solid piece no matter who we pick. So saying that we will pick 5th probably lol

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Yes that is true but Hagens is not even coming close to the production of Smith as a 17 year old and 18 year old.

This is why Eichel getting 71 points the same as Smith while being 10 months younger is more impressive.

Getting a full season of high level coaching is more impactful to development than 7 months development as 17/18 year olds especially considering kids can hit puberty at wildly different stages in their life.

This kind of thing coming up is a great sign that fans are grasping at straws to prop up their player.

 

[mogambomoroo]

I'm going on my D+12 year, drafted by the HFBoards in 2020 as an D+8 draftee and going with a point per game pace at HFBoards.... okay I'm going to show myself out.

To stay on the topic: Hopefully we get Schaefer, so we can exhale.

 

[sharski]

So saying that we will pick 5th probably lol

If sharks fall out of top 4 I'm all in on going for the Eklund synergy

If they fall to 6 I'm out of ideas

 

[Roasted Nuts]

Probably a bit early, but has anyone watched 2026 draft eligible Keaton Verheoff? Huge 6'4" right defenseman, would slot in perfectly in the Shark's lineup. Plays for the Victoria Royals, same team as Shark's draftee Nate Misskey. Almost PPG already, would project to have a monster draft year.

​

 

[tiburon12]

I'm going on my D+12 year, drafted by the HFBoards in 2020 as an D+8 draftee and going with a point per game pace at HFBoards.... okay I'm going to show myself out.

To stay on the topic: Hopefully we get Schaefer, so we can exhale.

all those extra seasons of checking hockey before your draft year have resulted in an ELITE post/like ratio

 

[Juxtaposer]

Probably a bit early, but has anyone watched 2026 draft eligible Keaton Verheoff? Huge 6'4" right defenseman, would slot in perfectly in the Shark's lineup. Plays for the Victoria Royals, same team as Shark's draftee Nate Misskey. Almost PPG already, would project to have a monster draft year.

​

He's very good. Think (hope) the Sharks will be just a little too good to have a chance at him.

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

As JTR has said repeatedly on this thread, it's fine to take it into consideration, but it's not a big enough factor for @Celly4Celebrini to have been a jerk about it to me when I used D+0 and D+1.

The fact is that Hagens is widely seen as a better prospect than Smith by folks outside the org. We can make any number of arguments why the points totals matter or why Perreault and Leonard doing worse this year matters but it won't change that fact. And anyway, they are quite comparable even if Hagens is better, and comparable makes him a worse fit for the org, but he's not going to go 5-7th overall. He'll probably go 1st, 2nd, or a long shot at 3rd.

wasnt trying to be a jerk directly to you, thats my bad. And i dont disagree that Hagens is better than Smith, but i do think that we have to compare freshman seasons between the two.

 

[karltonian]

I'm going on my D+12 year, drafted by the HFBoards in 2020 as an D+8 draftee and going with a point per game pace at HFBoards.... okay I'm going to show myself out.

To stay on the topic: Hopefully we get Schaefer, so we can exhale.

i want schaefer for the broccoli memes alone

 

[Juxtaposer]

i want schaefer for the broccoli memes alone

I have no idea what "the broccoli memes" could possibly mean but Schaefer is cancelled, you ruined it.

 

[Shark Finn]

all those extra seasons of checking hockey before your draft year have resulted in an ELITE post/like ratio

Joining HFBoards after the drastic rule change of message reactions really helps in that regard too!

 

[Patty Ice]

I have no idea what "the broccoli memes" could possibly mean but Schaefer is cancelled, you ruined it.

I think he's referring to the style of hair he rocks that is popular in his generation. Faded sides with curly, permed top reminiscent of broccoli.

Pretty much any annoying popular teen streamer style of hair that makes a face 1000x more punchable.

Or I could be way off based and went off on an old man rant.

 

[karltonian]

I think he's referring to the style of hair he rocks that is popular in his generation. Faded sides with curly, permed top reminiscent of broccoli.

Pretty much any annoying popular teen streamer style of hair that makes a face 1000x more punchable.

Or I could be way off based and went off on an old man rant.

View attachment 958127

no it's a deep cut from an earlier time. better days, when it was shaefer time and thread rallies involved pictures of a guy and his broccoli.