2025 26 Roster…too Soon

[Taze em]

I did the research.
Artemi Panarin signs to NYR that missed two straight playoffs: VERDICT: Success
John Tavares signed to Toronto Verdict: borderline
Chara signs to Boston. Verdict: massive success
Bobrovsky to Florida. Verdict: first a failure then a big success

 

[Hawkaholic]

I did the research.
Artemi Panarin signs to NYR that missed two straight playoffs: VERDICT: Success
John Tavares signed to Toronto Verdict: borderline
Chara signs to Boston. Verdict: massive success
Bobrovsky to Florida. Verdict: first a failure then a big success

Success?
Chara wasn't brought into a rebuilding team
Bobrovsky wasnt brought into a rebuilding team

 

[Taze em]

I donno man I’m the one bringing names to the discussion here. I want to hear all these top top free agents that went to rebuilds who were a disaster.

 

[BHawks77]

Except the cap has never been announced to grow at the rate it will in the next 3 years before.

You pay Marner 14-16 mil and that will set the bar for Bedard and others. Same thing happened with Leafs (Tavares) and it backfired big time. Players that havent won anything were payed like they did.

You have build the team to take team friendly deals to get champion worthy team.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

Can you give some examples of this? I don’t doubt you, I suspect though that not many franchises have ever even had the ability to sign a top free agent while in a full rebuild.

My mind immediately goes to Pittsburgh signing Sergei Gonchar as the worst team in league. That worked out.

The hawks signed Brian Campbell to a massive contract equal today to 12 million when they didn’t make the playoffs. But it isn’t an exact comparison because the 08 Hawks went 40-34 and weee just barely out of playoffs.

Examples of disaster Free agent contracts to top 20-30 players in the NHL that were signed by rebuilds?

can't talk about Campbell without talking about Huet, Hawks were bailed out by the fact that they could make him go overseas to finish out that contract...I don't think Marner would be a disaster if its in the 13m range, but I think Boeser and Bennett could be...they don't have elite production and would command a lot of aav and term

 

[kmwtrucks]

I think the point is if you bring UFA's in it should be when it clear the core of drafted players are on the way up. We were better last year but still had the 2nd worst record in the league by quite a bit. So I would not say we turned the corner. I think we all think that next year we will but the reality is we are going to be playing younger players so while it may be more enjoyable we may not be much better. When the hawks brought Hossa in it was clear we were a up and coming team. Rinzel for Jones and Greene or Moore for donato is not really a upgrade for next year. I would bring back donato at 4 X 4 or 3 X 4.5 and would do Marner at 7 y 100mil with 30% derffered to get the AAV to about $13. I would trade TT and Murph for younger established nhl players. you could keep Murph till deadline but with his injury history probably take what you can now. TT is really over kill if you have donato and Marner. when is Kaiser and Crevier have to pass thru waivers? might be next year.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Putting aside how Florida looks today, here's roughly what they looked like at the start of the 2019-20 season, the first where they started to make the postseason.

Jonathan Huberdeau –Aleksander Barkov –Evgenii Dadonov
Henrik Borgstrom– Vincent Trocheck–Frank Vatrano
Mike Hoffman– Dennis Malgin –Brett Connolly
Colton Sceviour– Noel Acciari–Dryden Hunt

Mike Matheson-Aaron Ekblad
Keith Yandle-Anton Stralman
Mackenzie Weegar-Josh Brown

Sergei Bobrovsky
Sam Montembeault

2011 1st Round Pick-2013 1st Round Pick-2007 3rd Round Pick (left for KHL for 5 years and returned a few seasons prior)
2016 1st Round Pick-2011 3rd Round Pick-Trade*
Trade**-2015 4th Round Pick-UFA
UFA-UFA-UDFA

2012 1st Round Pick-2014 1st Round Pick
UFA (negotiating rights traded before)-UFA
2013 7th Round Pick-2013 6th Round Pick

UFA
2015 3rd Round Pick

*February 22, 2018: Bruins trade Frank Vatrano to the Florida Panthers in exchange for a 3rd round pick in the 2018 draft
**June 19, 2018: Sharks trade Mike Hoffman, along with a 7th round pick in the 2018 draft for a 4th and 5th round pick in the 2018 draft and a 2nd round pick in the 2019 draft.

Nobody gets from Point A to Point C without some time in between there. I think it's further evidence of how the draft really lays your foundation, and then from there, can give you the confidence to start getting really aggressive in order to swap out/replace key pieces from outside your foundation once you've seen some signs of life.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I donno man I’m the one bringing names to the discussion here. I want to hear all these top top free agents that went to rebuilds who were a disaster.

The Hawks had already drafted their two cornerstone, franchise forwards in Toews and Kane when they got Campbell. I'm not sure anyone in this draft is going to be that for us and we're likely going to need another top 5 talent forward in next year's draft too.

Boston wasn't coming out of a scorched earth rebuild when they got Chara. Bobrovsky had the worst contract in the league until the Panthers dramatically altered their roster and became a Cup contender. The Rangers are hardly a model for team construction and I'm honestly worried that's the direction the Hawks would head in if they sign a guy like Marner.

Panarin is a high cap hit, flashy, offense-first forward who gives you elite offensive production in the regular season but did he ever have a single big game moment for the Rangers in the playoffs? Did he ever take over a game or series that would justify his top 5 cap hit? If he did I don't recall it. 35 points in 46 games in the playoffs for the Rangers, that's not great even before we dig deeper. Of those 35 points, 17 of them are on the powerplay which was symptomatic of the Rangers forward corps as a whole. Bad even-strength producers when the games get tight and a team who thought, "Oh nice we lucked into Kakko and Lafrenierre so lets go full steam ahead. Zibanejed will be just fine as our 1C".

This rebuild has to be done right. Signing a major free agent now and making aggressive moves to push for the playoffs would be a big mistake. We're not ready. You're taking the roast out of the oven too early, it's undercooked, not going to taste great, and not worth all the trouble it took you to prepare it. How many food metaphors do i need!?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Let's not get silly here. If Marner UFA is same as Panarin UFA result, that's a great result for whomever gets him. No need to double down "but no Cup" as that's more of a goal post moving (I think NYR has had good success but had too many misses at the top of the draft/poor development of young players as the thing likely ending their "window"). Panarin outcome would be good argument for why you would sign him because elite talent doesn't come around in UFA very often.

Bobrovsky's delivered 43 playoff wins to Florida. What else are you signing a UFA Goalie for? If he was ever the worst* contract in the league, that has proven both false and a reflection of goaltending being a super volatile position.

UFA is fine for the right guy. It's the premature trades of futures for 25 year olds (because they're "so young!") that scare me more than anything.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

When is earliest that Bedard can sign an offer sheet? After today he really should consider all his options for future especially if Hawks offseason is as terrible as it has started out

 

[WarriorofTime]

When is earliest that Bedard can sign an offer sheet? After today he really should consider all his options for future especially if Hawks offseason is as terrible as it has started out

July 1, 2026

 

[kmwtrucks]

When is earliest that Bedard can sign an offer sheet? After today he really should consider all his options for future especially if Hawks offseason is as terrible as it has started out

you are aware he came out at the end of the year and said he is happy here and is excited about the future. especially with growth the young players showed at the end. he is a student of the game and a smart teenager. He knew expectations on him were very high league wide and going 1st in the draft means you are going to team that is probably not going to the playoffs during his ELC. Celebrini had a good year and SJ is still going to be the worst team in the league for the 3rd year in a row next year. they have no def and outside the young guys and tyler toffoli no OFF they have no goaltending unless Askarvo improves

 

[x Tame Impala]

There's zero smoke to this "Bedard wants out" narrative until I hear it from him. Some Seravalli/Button/Spittin' Chiclets douchy pontificating about it I keep seeing on social media isn't enough to convince me

 

[Hawkaholic]

Let's not get silly here. If Marner UFA is same as Panarin UFA result, that's a great result for whomever gets him. No need to double down "but no Cup" as that's more of a goal post moving (I think NYR has had good success but had too many misses at the top of the draft/poor development of young players as the thing likely ending their "window"). Panarin outcome would be good argument for why you would sign him because elite talent doesn't come around in UFA very often.

If our team became a top team, and Marner was making 14mil but not contributing near the amount that he did in the regular season (like Panarin/ and current Marner), I would not be happy we signed him regardless of how the team as a whole fared. The Rangers weren't a top team only because of Panarin, he helped make them a President trophy team, but they would still be a pretty good team without him, and maybe better if they used that money for another top 4 Dman and top 6 forward..

 

[WarriorofTime]

If our team became a top team, and Marner was making 14mil but not contributing near the amount that he did in the regular season (like Panarin/ and current Marner), I would not be happy we signed him regardless of how the team as a whole fared. The Rangers weren't a top team only because of Panarin, he helped make them a President trophy team, but they would still be a pretty good team without him, and maybe better if they used that money for another top 4 Dman and top 6 forward..

They won the President's Trophy with Panain outscoring the next guy by 43 points. Read that again, 43 points. He's been carrying that offense pretty hard. Big reason come playoff time he's underwhelming is when you're facing elite opposition with strong defense, they can key in and shut down the one guy you're most worried about and they don't have other horses that are threatening enough. I doubt NYR would have been better not signing Panarin and re-allocating the cap elsewhere, they'd probably just not have been relevant to begin with.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Let's not get silly here. If Marner UFA is same as Panarin UFA result, that's a great result for whomever gets him. No need to double down "but no Cup" as that's more of a goal post moving (I think NYR has had good success but had too many misses at the top of the draft/poor development of young players as the thing likely ending their "window"). Panarin outcome would be good argument for why you would sign him because elite talent doesn't come around in UFA very often.

Bobrovsky's delivered 43 playoff wins to Florida. What else are you signing a UFA Goalie for? If he was ever the worst* contract in the league, that has proven both false and a reflection of goaltending being a super volatile position.

UFA is fine for the right guy. It's the premature trades of futures for 25 year olds (because they're "so young!") that scare me more than anything.

Winning or losing the Cup ARE the goalposts.

 

[ClydeLee]

Let's not get silly here. If Marner UFA is same as Panarin UFA result, that's a great result for whomever gets him. No need to double down "but no Cup" as that's more of a goal post moving (I think NYR has had good success but had too many misses at the top of the draft/poor development of young players as the thing likely ending their "window"). Panarin outcome would be good argument for why you would sign him because elite talent doesn't come around in UFA very often.

Bobrovsky's delivered 43 playoff wins to Florida. What else are you signing a UFA Goalie for? If he was ever the worst* contract in the league, that has proven both false and a reflection of goaltending being a super volatile position.

UFA is fine for the right guy. It's the premature trades of futures for 25 year olds (because they're "so young!") that scare me more than anything.

How's that goalpost moving? Did you think the Rangers were a serious contender?

It never felt they were because they rushed their rebuild to try and win as a flawed unit. A pp or 1 line feasting team with a great goalie but not a legit beat you 5on5. That's just being the 15-16 Blackhawks.

That's not the goal or mission. If that's a mission, it's a misguided one.

 

[x Tame Impala]

They won the President's Trophy with Panain outscoring the next guy by 43 points. Read that again, 43 points. He's been carrying that offense pretty hard. Big reason come playoff time he's underwhelming is when you're facing elite opposition with strong defense, they can key in and shut down the one guy you're most worried about and they don't have other horses that are threatening enough. I doubt NYR would have been better not signing Panarin and re-allocating the cap elsewhere, they'd probably just not have been relevant to begin with.

Maybe they'd be better with the cap space allocated differently? The Panthers are looking like the best team in the league 2 years running and their leading scorer had 81 points in 79 games. That's 2014 dead puck 2.0 era production.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Winning or losing the Cup ARE the goalposts.

But things can be judged on an individualized basis to determine if they were beneficial or detrimental towards that goal without being too result-oriented and just determining any move made by a Cup winning team = good, any move made by a non-Cup winning team = bad. If Cup is goal, shouldn't you praise Bobrovsky signing as the perfect move? He's been in the net all of the last three years they went deep.

 

[Hawkaholic]

They won the President's Trophy with Panain outscoring the next guy by 43 points. Read that again, 43 points. He's been carrying that offense pretty hard. Big reason come playoff time he's underwhelming is when you're facing elite opposition with strong defense, they can key in and shut down the one guy you're most worried about and they don't have other horses that are threatening enough. I doubt NYR would have been better not signing Panarin and re-allocating the cap elsewhere, they'd probably just not have been relevant to begin with.

They would have been a good, but not great regular season team, but they could have been better in the playoffs with better depth. They have the best goalie in the world carrying them, they would have still been relevant.

 

[WarriorofTime]

How's that goalpost moving? Did you think the Rangers were a serious contender?

110, 107, 114 point seasons three straight years. 2 Conference Finals. That's a solid mini-run.

It never felt they were because they rushed their rebuild to try and win as a flawed unit.

Staying results oriented, they got the number 1 pick the season after they signed Panarin. It was dumb luck sure but I don't think it means their rebuild, build, whatever you call it failed because they came up too soon. They drafted or Fox'd their way into a lot of good defensemen and a franchise goalie came through their system. It was the Forwards that underwhelmed and left them too reliant on Panarin in particular and other guys like Zibenejad, Kreider, Trocheck who were good not great.

A pp or 1 line feasting team with a great goalie but not a legit beat you 5on5. That's just being the 15-16 Blackhawks.

Sure they didn't get over the hump, it happens. They drafted Forwards 7th, 9th, 2nd and 1st four straight years. On paper, that's all the ingredients you want. The issue is all of those picks either outright busted or seriously underwhelmed. So their actual Forward core was a bunch of older dudes that could only last so long. Had Kakko and Lafreniere been the star-studded cost-controlled rising young guys they would have hoped for, very high chance the Rangers win a Cup in this decade.

That's not the goal or mission. If that's a mission, it's a misguided one.

Well the mission is to win a Cup of course, but there's always a high possibility you aim for it and fall a bit short. I just heavily reject the notion that "The Rangers never won a Cup BECAUSE they signed Panarin". I go back to Panarin is probably the biggest reason they were good enough to be in the discussion at all.

 

[x Tame Impala]

But things can be judged on an individualized basis to determine if they were beneficial or detrimental towards that goal without being too result-oriented and just determining any move made by a Cup winning team = good, any move made by a non-Cup winning team = bad. If Cup is goal, shouldn't you praise Bobrovsky signing as the perfect move? He's been in the net all of the last three years they went deep.

Signing Bobrovsky did end up being a great move, you can't argue that. Artemi Panarin's league 4th highest cap hit has not helped the rangers win a Cup. He routinely underperforms statistically and to the eye test. For the same reasons a Mitch Marner UFA signing would be terrible pending a miraculous turnaround where the team that signs him can rely on him to have elite production when the games matter most. No one cares about President's Trophies or winning your division.

Paying Marner $14+ million to come to Chicago and put up 90-100 points a year for a few seasons and then disappear in the playoffs is a terrible decision. Just a rumor I read on the Leafs board but the guy (and Matthews) is apparently hated by all of his teammates. He doesn't show up when it matters, blames everyone else, and commands the most egregious amount of money he can get at the expense of making his team better. Him boosting Bedard's production and making us a bubble team that gets stomped on helps no one.

We've drafted a very promising D core, we have a potential superstar forward in year 3 of his career, and of our offensive picks aside are going to start being evaluated at the NHL level soon. Not to mention we just traded for Knight. There's a lot to like here, Marner doesn't help us win championships.

 

[Hawkaholic]

110, 107, 114 point seasons three straight years. 2 Conference Finals. That's a solid mini-run.

11 in 43

Panarins goal totals in those years in the playoffs. 4th on the team making 11mil.

 

[TLEH]

My arguement is inline with DHF. I actually don't mind Marner at a high number in a vacuum. You can't make a UFA the highest paid guy. It undermines your entire cap.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

My arguement is inline with DHF. I actually don't mind Marner at a high number in a vacuum. You can't make a UFA the highest paid guy. It undermines your entire cap.

so the idea is that you cannot pay someone more than say 12.5m aav if you lock up Bedard this summer at that rate, or that you need to lock up Bedard first before exceeding his cap hit with another move?