2025 26 Roster…too Soon

[TheFridge]

Never turn down elite top 6 talent for just money when you are a team that needs elite top 6 talent and has plenty of money.

Just don't look under the hood.

 

[bwanajamba]

Marner at 14 or even 15 million is a better addition than Ehlers at 9. More potential to backfire for sure but way more value to be had

The numbers in late-series games are ugly but let's not kid ourselves that it's an issue with one guy. That's a village-wide contagion. There were games and even whole series where any number of key dynasty-era Blackhawks laid an egg but were picked up by others. None of these Leafs do that for each other. Do we think they are literally all just loser personalities who quit when the games are most important or is it a team culture problem? For me it's really hard to pin it on individual performance and I think all of them would benefit from a change in scenery.

And regular season value still matters a lot and it isn't even close between Marner and Ehlers

I get why some are against it and I'm not sure I'm totally for it either, but if I have to pick between those two deals I'm going Marner all day

 

[TheFridge]

It does not matter what you take serious issues with..

BHawk21, it doesn't matter what any of us take issue with or post on these boards. It's just some of us post stupider shit than others.

 

[BHawk21]

Just don't look under the hood.

I think there just might be a hall of famer under the hood.

 

[BHawk21]

BHawk21, it doesn't matter what any of us take issue with or post on these boards. It's just some of us post stupider shit than others.

I think your on the way to convincing me to not want Marner.

 

[TheFridge]

I think there just might be a hall of famer under the hood.

The standards for the HHoF have continued to plummet but let's not get too crazy now.

 

[statswatcher]

I dont need a hypothetical. I said he was a PPG. Hes got 13 points in 13 games this playoffs. Your trying to correct me. Im not sure why.

you know, i really try to respect the intelligence of my interlocutors here on this wonderful website, but good god do i get some of the dumbest replies imaginable. you literally just read one sentence, saw that i used the word hypothetical, and then shut off your brain.

fact is he had 2 points in games that mattered. the other 11 might as well have not counted at all for all the good it did them.

 

[TheFridge]

Marner at 14 or even 15 million is a better addition than Ehlers at 9. More potential to backfire for sure but way more value to be had

The numbers in late-series games are ugly but let's not kid ourselves that it's an issue with one guy. That's a village-wide contagion. There were games and even whole series where any number of key dynasty-era Blackhawks laid an egg but were picked up by others. None of these Leafs do that for each other. Do we think they are literally all just loser personalities who quit when the games are most important or is it a team culture problem? For me it's really hard to pin it on individual performance and I think all of them would benefit from a change in scenery.

And regular season value still matters a lot and it isn't even close between Marner and Ehlers

I get why some are against it and I'm not sure I'm totally for it either, but if I have to pick between those two deals I'm going Marner all day

Those aren't mutually exclusive options. It *is* a team culture problem because collectively they're a bunch of losers who don't care enough to elevate their games when the games get tougher.

For the entire length of Marner's current contract, he's been a top-10 paid player in the entire NHL. When he signed it, he was the 7th highest-paid player in the league. Him and his agent bent Toronto over to get every last cent out of them and then rewarded Toronto by disappearing in every playoff series he ever played in.

As much as it's not just a Marner issue in Toronto, the fact is that Marner was a huge issue in Toronto. If you *demand* to be paid like the elite of the elite, you better back it up. Marner has never backed it up. There is no reason to think he will back it up in another situation. It's not like he had to carry that team and you'd think, over 7-8 years, surely *at least once* he'd show up in crucial games but it never happened.

 

[BHawk21]

you know, i really try to respect the intelligence of my interlocutors here on this wonderful website, but good god do i get some of the dumbest replies imaginable. you literally just read one sentence, saw that i used the word hypothetical, and then shut off your brain.

fact is he had 2 points in games that mattered. the other 11 might as well have not counted at all for all the good it did them.

You keep telling me he doesnt have points in games 5-7. I see what you are saying, I acknowledge what you are saying.

He still had 13 points in 13 games. This is what I said. You keep trying to shift the conversation to something else.

 

[statswatcher]

marner is a good hockey player. better than ehlers. i do not sign him as a free agent to be the highest paid forward on the team (maybe/probably in the league). not with his resume.

 

[statswatcher]

You keep telling me he doesnt have points in games 5-7. I see what you are saying, I acknowledge what you are saying.

He still had 13 points in 13 games. This is what I said. You keep trying to shift the conversation to something else.

the conversation that i am trying to have is that if the only thing you have to say about marner's performance this playoff is that he was "ppg", then you are coping hardcore brother.

 

[Deputy McRizzy]

The standards for the HHoF have continued to plummet but let's not get too crazy now.

Come on man the guy over 657 regular season games is scoring at a 92 point pace. That's absolutely HOF material for a guy with a clean injury history who has a game that is likely to age very, very well.

 

[BHawk21]

Come on man the guy over 657 regular season games is scoring at a 92 point pace. That's absolutely HOF material for a guy with a clean injury history who has a game that is likely to age very, very well.

Hes a hall of famer. Dont listen to the crackpots. Hes got like identical numbers to Pavel Bure right now and hes 28.

 

[bwanajamba]

Those aren't mutually exclusive options. It *is* a team culture problem because collectively they're a bunch of losers who don't care enough to elevate their games when the games get tougher.

For the entire length of Marner's current contract, he's been a top-10 paid player in the entire NHL. When he signed it, he was the 7th highest-paid player in the league. Him and his agent bent Toronto over to get every last cent out of them and then rewarded Toronto by disappearing in every playoff series he ever played in.

As much as it's not just a Marner issue in Toronto, the fact is that Marner was a huge issue in Toronto. If you *demand* to be paid like the elite of the elite, you better back it up. Marner has never backed it up. There is no reason to think he will back it up in another situation. It's not like he had to carry that team and you'd think, over 7-8 years, surely *at least once* he'd show up in crucial games but it never happened.

Of course he's part of the problem, a big part of it. But surely you see how the struggle of the group as a collective has a multiplicative effect and it's not the craziest thing to imagine that he could thrive in a different environment with a different mix of players. That's the gamble you would make in signing him. The fact that it's something you legitimately have to worry about is the only reason he's getting anywhere near UFA.

 

[Deputy McRizzy]

Hes a hall of famer. Dont listen to the crackpots. Hes got like identical numbers to Pavel Bure right now and hes 28.

I agree. Even if he plays in a higher era than other guys, I still think he scores enough that he'll be high enough in the rankings when his career done that he's an easy in for the HOF. If he keeps up his scoring pace he'll be just above 1000 points for his career when he is around 30-31 years old.

Of course he's part of the problem, a big part of it. But surely you see how the struggle of the group as a collective has a multiplicative effect and it's not the craziest thing to imagine that he could thrive in a different environment with a different mix of players. That's the gamble you would make in signing him. The fact that it's something you legitimately have to worry about is the only reason he's getting anywhere near UFA.

I look at it similar to when Florida signed Bobrovsky. Great regular season goaltender who just melted down in the playoffs at times with Columbus and his brief stint in Philly. Different coach, teammates, and overall culture and they're on the verge of going to their 3rd straight SCF with him as their guy.

 

[TheFridge]

Of course he's part of the problem, a big part of it. But surely you see how the struggle of the group as a collective has a multiplicative effect and it's not the craziest thing to imagine that he could thrive in a different environment with a different mix of players. That's the gamble you would make in signing him. The fact that it's something you legitimately have to worry about is the only reason he's getting anywhere near UFA.

He's currently in an environment where he's the second best player on the team, surrounded by other elite/great players, and he can't do anything.

If he changes his situation and goes to a team where he is the best player, are we expecting a better result or more of the same?

I could see Marner doing well on a team where he is a complementary player, playing behind 3-4 other elite players but he's never going to be priced as a complementary player so it won't happen.

 

[statswatcher]

I look at it similar to when Florida signed Bobrovsky. Great regular season goaltender who just melted down in the playoffs at times with Columbus and his brief stint in Philly. Different coach, teammates, and overall culture and they're on the verge of going to their 3rd straight SCF with him as their guy.

that's the potential upside, sure. the potential downside is you turn your cup window cap structure upside down to gift a guy who has never won anything of note the most lucrative contract in the sport's history, and he continues to win nothing.

 

[Deputy McRizzy]

that's the potential upside, sure. the potential downside is you turn your cup window cap structure upside down to gift a guy who has never won anything of note the most lucrative contract in the sport's history, and he continues to win nothing.

I’d take the gamble because you hit the absolute jackpot if it pays off.

It’s not like you can’t get out of his contract if he’s not the guy here either.

The Hawks managed to trade Jones looking the way he did. Sure it might cost an asset and/or retention if things to go poorly, but it’s not like there aren’t options.

Bad teams will always need to hit the cap floor so depending on how the payout of his contract is at the backend they may have some value to other teams in itself.

 

[MTU34]

Like others have said, the pattern is just too much for Marner right now.

If the price wasn’t exorbitant maybe I’d do it on the off chance that a change of environment is what he needs. That doesn’t matter though because the price WIlLL be exorbitant.

The real damning thing for me is the fact that the other 3, while not carrying the team consistently like you’d hope, have still had some individual moments where they step up in big spots. Marner has had none

 

[statswatcher]

I’d take the gamble because you hit the absolute jackpot if it pays off.

It’s not like you can’t get out of his contract if he’s not the guy here either.

The Hawks managed to trade Jones looking the way he did. Sure it might cost an asset and/or retention if things to go poorly, but it’s not like there aren’t options.

Bad teams will always need to hit the cap floor so depending on how the payout of his contract is at the backend they may have some value to other teams in itself.

i'd rather avoid ending up with another seth jones to get out from under considering we aren't even a year removed from me being worried i'd die before they got rid of that contract. either way, marner flaming out and never living up to the money isn't even the worst possible outcome in my view. the worst of all possible worlds is he lives up to it in the regular season, disappears in the playoffs, and strings the team on for long enough to bid up everyone elses money.

basically worst case scenario imo is they just turn into the laffs.

 

[BHawk21]

that's the potential upside, sure. the potential downside is you turn your cup window cap structure upside down to gift a guy who has never won anything of note the most lucrative contract in the sport's history, and he continues to win nothing.

Ill take the upside of 3x to the cup finals.

 

[Deputy McRizzy]

i'd rather avoid ending up with another seth jones to get out from under considering we aren't even a year removed from me being worried i'd die before they got rid of that contract. either way, marner flaming out and never living up to the money isn't even the worst possible outcome in my view. the worst of all possible worlds is he lives up to it in the regular season, disappears in the playoffs, and strings the team on for long enough to bid up everyone elses money.

basically worst case scenario imo is they just turn into the laffs.

If we had better forward depth on the way I would agree. But we’ve had this discussion what feels like a million times now. Can’t wait until he signs anywhere so we can all just move on lol.

 

[Hawkaholic]

I don't care if he scored 150pts, I don't care if he had 20pts in the 1st round vs the shitty Ottawa Senators.

He isn't, and never will be worth 12+mil, and it will be a detriment to the rebuild if the Hawks sign him, mark my words.

 

[statswatcher]

If we had better forward depth on the way I would agree. But we’ve had this discussion what feels like a million times now. Can’t wait until he signs anywhere so we can all just move on lol.

bringing in marner doesn't make this a competitive forward group. full stop. people need to get this idea that they are one top line forward away from being acceptable (forget competitive, just simply presentable) out of their head. even if that weren't the case he can only play with two guys at a time. he isn't going to uplift the entire prospect pool by virtue of his sacred presence. i see no reason to expect anymore than that he will score some regular season points, maybe bump them back a few draft picks, and help bedard bid up his first big boy contract.

 

[RaquetPeanutSteering]

Yes, I want the 100 point guy whos a PPG in the playoffs who only cost you money and not assets.

Empty calorie guy. Cap space is the most precious asset, and that's going to creep up on teams like us who haven't locked up anyone (save Vlasic) before the cap is set to explode.