OT: 2024 Washington Commanders off-season thread: change we can believe in!

[CapitalsCupReality]

Getting his hitchhiking thumb ready for when he gets cut!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

The search for a franchise QB: History of every NFL team's franchise QBs and the longest droughts to find one

Looking at every team's franchise QB search and where each stands as we enter another offseason QB carousel

www.cbssports.com

 

[ynotcaps]

Fair enough. And by that metric, you'd have to say the same about all franchise quarterbacks that haven't won a title. Rivers, Fouts, McNabb, Tarkenton, Moon, Marino. There's a long list.

I'm not saying Cousins is right there with those guys, just that it's silly to say he wasn't a franchise QB. So silly that you really have to make these kinds of odd distinctions that don't even remove some of the best QBs ever from the conversation you're trying to have.

The sour grapes here has led to those types of departures from logic. And lots of people think that way. Elway was the king of "Couldn't Win The Big One" conversations until Denver finally put a respectable team around him. Same with Marino. And might you not be able to say the same about Cousins?

Last offseason after that "Quarterback" docuseries ran on Netflix, lots of people got their panties in a twist because Cousins came off so favorably. So there was an onslaught of "Can't Win The Big One" talk that labeled his as a Playoff Choker, many casually saying that he didn't have the icily dispassionate, killer demeanor of Joe Burrow. And at that moment in time, the truth was...

Those arguments just lack perspective, is all I'm saying. He played great for them, their D played for shit, and when reporters stuck a mic in his face, he took the heat because in addition to being a great QB, he's also the type of leader you'd want.

No, he's not the world's best anything and he has plenty of flaws. The arguments here over the years about keeping him in DC, is he worth X amount of money, and so on -- those were subjective arguments. This one isn't. The term has a very simple meaning. If you want to redefine it to mean something else so you can make a "This is MY truth" (which redefines truth, but whatever), go for it.

There's no need to move the goalposts so many times. They're heavy and awkward to carry around. You don't have to like the guy to concede that he's been pretty damn good at his job...

I think it's a good set of guys you list, recognizing you're not saying he's at their level.

But I think each of those, if you asked the question in each of their respective primes, "is he a Franchise QB," the answer in each case would have been "yes." And it's the currency that matters -- the historical perspective can only come later. (Take Dan Fouts, for instance: his all time numbers may be high-middle of the pack, but in his era, he was prolific.) You felt like each of those was a threat to be the reason his team was going to win games and be a serious contender. They all fell short not necessarily through anything majorly lacking in themselves:

Rivers: played in an era where Brady and Peyton were leading juggernauts, and his team's defense could never get them past those teams
Tarkenton: was a redefining player at the position in his era -- he, however, might be one of the guys where his own short-comings as a passer hurt his team, as the MIN D was legendary and their running game was always solid in that era
Fouts: Again, absolutely prolific (and helped by a fantastic receiving corps), but played on a team where Defense was never strong enough to overcome the best AFC teams of that era (PIT, OAK, MIA)
McNabb: Another one who might have been as responsible for his team not winning as he was in getting them close, but there was never really a question that he always gave them a chance to be right there
Moon: Prolific, but his career feels a little bit like an outlier because he got a later start (prime was in CFL)
Marino: Maybe the best QB never to win it all, prolific as prolific got in his day, but on a team that could never take the leap

To an earlier post I made I think those are all guys folks looked at in their respective eras and said, "this guy's great." In the end, it just didn't work out.

(The Dilfers and Flaccos and, sorry, Rypiens were on teams that managed to win -- and some of them even had great playoff/SB games to help them get there, but they weren't guys you looked at at the time and went, "Huge QB advantage for US!"

(And I love me some Joey B, but I think he ends up in the not-quite franchise tier because his body's already too compromised. That team has never yet managed to put together even a "just good" OL to protect him. And that should be the biggest warning to our powers that be about what happens if you don't build that unit, and fast.)

 

[Beef Invictus]

I was asking myself if Forbes is even replacement level. I suppose we shall find out.

 

[ynotcaps]

I was asking myself if Forbes is even replacement level. I suppose we shall find out.

Oh, I think he is. If the replacement is a 3-legged dog. With mange.

 

[HTFN]

Oh, I think he is. If the replacement is a 3-legged dog. With mange.

So what you’re saying is I have about two days to get to DC for my starting job

 

[usiel]

Damn Tua have an ass game.

 

[sycamore]

Not sure why the Fish still can;t handle Buffalo. Didn't the Bills regress from last year after
being fleeced in free agency? (eg. losing Stephan Diggs etc). And yet they still have Miami's number.

Dolphins prolly need to consider their coaching situation. With the talent they have, they should be competing with the big dogs of the AFC.

 

[usiel]

Tua down!

James Cook has done my fantasy team well tonight.

 

[Cush]

Another concussion for Tua

 

[Ridley Simon]

Franchise QBs usually don't get moved from their original team while still in their near-prime (there are exceptions like Brees and Peyton) because they're undeniably pre-HOF, and usually don't have consistently mediocre W/L seasons their entire career.

This is a decent article and of course the lists can be debated:

What exactly is a ‘franchise quarterback’?

It’s something that is hard to define, but easy to recognize after the fact.

www.milehighreport.com

Cousins has a great agent and PR and figured out how to put up money making stats.

He accumulates a lot of yards per game and is in fact 11th all time in that category. But almost the entire list is now populated by current or recent QBs because the league has changed so much to emphasize passing (Dan Marino is 20th at 253yds/g, for example).

Maybe the best comparable is Matt Ryan, ironically also of the Falcons. Ryan spent 15 years in ATL (Cousins has 6 in DC and 6 in MIN), and like many other franchise QBs spent a year somewhere else trying to hang on to his career.

Ryan was pretty clearly THEIR franchise QB for that entire time. His stats are only slightly below Cousins in many categories and slightly higher in others (like yds/g). They seem similar in playing style, and have virtually identical career win % (about 53%).

So it's complicated. He'd be a 'franchise QB' on the Matt Ryan level, but not Brady or any of the other Tier 1 QBs.

The main confounder is he was getting Tier 1 money and that eventually pushed all the real Tier 1 guys even higher, making his own contract look more reasonable.

Schrodinger's Contract.

Matt Ryan has a career record of 124-109-1 (+15), playoff record of 4-6, thrown for 62k yards….an MVP, a ROY, and made a Super Bowl.

Kirk Cousins has a career regular season record of 78-71-2 (+7), playoff record of 1-4, thrown for 39k yards and ……(crickets).

Like I said. Kirk is a good player. Maybe even slightly beyond that. I would never ever ever call him “great”, because he’s “Captain Not-Clutch” (save ONE game in the loffs), and he’s never really won, well, anything?

He’s got time left. So he sure could change the narrative. But his hill is getting steeper.

Being top 20 all time in yards etc doesn’t mean much to me, in this 5000yd a season era.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I think this really distills down to two terms -- "Franchise QB" and "Franchise Player."

If an NFL team sticks with a quarterback for a long time, for good reason, and are making no effort to replace him during that time, they're a Franchise QB. A Franchise Player is, shockingly, a franchise's best player. You can be the Franchise QB without being the Franchise Player.

Dismissing Kirk as something less than a Franchise QB is pretty silly. His numbers are pretty stellar, both teams that let him go very much wanted to keep him. Last year was a perfect storm for him being let go -- that specific injury at that age with the ability to have that draft position in a deep, talented QB class. They made the smart choice, no question. But both teams -- the actual players on the field -- adored that guy, and both would have kept him if the circumstances were even slightly different.

So it has little to do with how many teams you play for. Plenty of truly great QBs have switched teams for various reasons, especially in the Cap/FA Era. It matters that your team wins, but not necessarily that you win it all. Plenty of truly great QBs never won a title or never made it to a title game. Being a Franchise QB is simply having a franchise keep you as their QB unquestionably for a long period of time.

Kirk is a great quarterback. The notion that he's just got a good agent and is only concerned with piling up stats is total nonsense. He's a passionate competitor, very talented at the position, and his class, character, humility, and leadership are exactly what you'd want them to be. He pissed off a lot of fans in DC, for sure. And these hot takes on him being unremarkable are sour grapes.

I know this isn't a popular opinion here, but in this case the definition is evident. Cousins has clearly been a franchise quarterback for a long time. There's no interpretation required. That's simply what those two words mean when you use them together.

Is Ryan Tannehill a “Franchise QB”? By whatever metric you are using?

 

[Ridley Simon]

Success, IMO anyway, means taking your team to the playoffs, basically being a winner during the regular season at least.

Marino played in 18 playoff games, Rivers 12, Moon and McNair 10, and Luck, obviously in a shortened career, 8.

Cousins has played in 5.

Yeah….but at least Kirk won one of those. It’s not like Marino, Rivers, Moon, McNair won that many! (Oh, they all won more? Ok, nvm)

For most of Cousins' tenure in Minnesota, their offense was top 10, peaking at 4th; that's a thing you need a good QB to consistently do. Their defense fell apart. Before he got there, they had a defense and no offense. After he got there, they could score and couldn't hold teams back. The eternal Vikings Cycle of Futility.

Well, Kirk’s 40m a yr contract had something to do w the defenses demise, dontcha think?

 

[Ridley Simon]

I was simply responding to your assertion that those other guys were not ‘successful’ QB’s.

Is Cousins’ comparative lack of success all his fault? Of course not, but it isn’t difficult to see that his accumulation of stats/money has not correlated with much team success. And honestly, I don’t think that is a coincidence.

BINGO

 

[Ridley Simon]

Are we sure this is really a *blow* to the secondary? I mean, honestly…….

 

[usiel]

Aight I literally thing I've wasted minutes of my life having to read shit tastic Cousins retro discussions can we move on?

 

[g00n]

Aight I literally thing I've wasted minutes of my life having to read shit tastic Cousins retro discussions can we move on?

JFC yes.

Back on a sane topic, JD should be shown video of Tua's suspected-concussion on loop. What a dumb play.

Close ups showed he closed his eyes and braced for impact. He initiated contact with his helmet when he could've dove into the turf to the left and still converted the 4th down. Sliding was possible but he might not have made the line to gain.

 

[g00n]

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/kliff-kingsbury-jayden-daniels-turned-my-worst-play-call-into-a-td

I wonder if the Shanahans would ever have made such an admission. Or any other WFT coach other than maybe Zorn or Spurrier.

I wonder what play was called....



Everyone's run-blocking including WR and OL are pulling right so probably a draw right into the teeth of TB defensive pressure.

 

[ynotcaps]

Well, shoot. I was hoping we would eventually get to KC's neckwear choices...

As for Tua -- is it time he leaves his boots on the mat? I think it is.

 

[Roric]

Tua might be done for good after that one

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Just a careless play. He made the first down and could have just slid. Zero reason to initiate that contact.


He’ll be back I’m 100% sure.

 

[hotpaws]

View attachment 906754

this is starting to get out of hand , i get it that KK/Quinn and maybe even Peters job is riding on JD but this doesn't do JD any favors , all it does is put added pressure on him and expectations that he can deliver sooner than he is probably able too

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

let the man play…..we just need him to stay on the field and grow each week.

Some of this fan over-analysis of how he’s being managed is going to be tiring AF all season long.

Makes enjoying the best player we’ve had in a long time harder….

 

[bacchist]

Tua shouldn't even be playing anymore.

Everyone involved should be pilloried.

 

[bacchist]

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/kliff-kingsbury-jayden-daniels-turned-my-worst-play-call-into-a-td

View attachment 906754

I wonder if the Shanahans would ever have made such an admission. Or any other WFT coach other than maybe Zorn or Spurrier.

I wonder what play was called....



Everyone's run-blocking including WR and OL are pulling right so probably a draw right into the teeth of TB defensive pressure.

I mean, I'd rather not see him throw himself into the meat grinder for a meaningless score in an unwinnable game.