Blue Jays GDT: 2024 v6 | Fri, Sept 13 | vs StL | 7pm ET/4pm PT | TBA vs TBA Ohtanis Makes History

[canucksfan]

I mean it wasn’t just some pitching. It was three rotation pieces, one coming off a CYA season, one durable #3, and an often injured but TOR arm. Plus adding an AS SS in Reyes, a healthy Bautista and a full season of Lawrie? Are you forgetting the hype around that team?

I remember that first game well. JP couldn't catch Dickey's knuckleball. There was a lot of hype around that team but it fizzled out quickly.

Due to the offseason, this current team didn't have much hype. The 2021 season had more.

 

[canucksfan]

I think for a majority of fans the Jays are their '2nd team' and there just isn't the intensity of feeling that you get from NHL fans in Canada, or Yankees/Red Sox teams in MLB as an example.

How many Jays fans are 'the Jays are my #1 team in any sport' sort of fans?



I remember the hype but to me it was more 'hope of turning a corner finally' more than 'expectation of success and contending'. Everyone would have been over-the-moon to sneak into the last wildcard spot and end the playoff drought, which was basically the minimum expectation for the 2024 Jays.

Here's an article from 2013. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1533649-complete-toronto-blue-jays-2013-season-preview

There are a few more I found with a quick search.

The 2013 team was expected to win the division and make the playoffs. Same can't be said for the 2024 Blue Jays in March.

EDIT: Also worth noting the Jays hadn't made the playoffs since 93' so fans were very eager to cheer for a very good team. Coming into this season they made the playoffs three of the last 4 years.

 

[GoonieFace]

This is a great post, I couldn't agree more with everything you've written. The bolded is the especially disappointing part when it comes to the state of this team. How you can justify, accept, condone, and forgive the travesty we've witnessed this season is astonishing.

While I agree this year was a complete letdown, you seem to be a little over the edge. I think Atkins should be let go, but this team and organization isn’t the gong show you seem to think it is.

 

[MS]

Here's an article from 2013. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1533649-complete-toronto-blue-jays-2013-season-preview

There are a few more I found with a quick search.

The 2013 team was expected to win the division and make the playoffs. Same can't be said for the 2024 Blue Jays in March.

EDIT: Also worth noting the Jays hadn't made the playoffs since 93' so fans were very eager to cheer for a very good team. Coming into this season they made the playoffs three of the last 4 years.

They were 22 games behind the Yankees in 2012 (and 20 behind Baltimore). 'Expected to win the division' reeks of overreaction and delusion.

I personally remember just hoping to make the wildcard and see some playoff games. And my feelings when they didn't and it was 'just another Jays season' are nowhere near the disappointment I feel about 2024 and the way things have unfolded for the team in the last year.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

While I agree this year was a complete letdown, you seem to be a little over the edge. I think Atkins should be let go, but this team and organization isn’t the gong show you seem to think it is.

I'm not on any precipice, but this season has been about as close to a gong show as you can be. I was expecting Chuck Barris to show up this weekend (I know he's dead but you get what I mean).

The team had a miserable finish to the season (7-17), finished 23rd of 30 teams (74-88), their farm system was ranked 24 out of 30 teams as of August, their bullpen is a mess, their starters are getting older, their offence was putrid (Schneider .191, Barger .197, Loperfido .197, Berroa .189), their defence faltered at the end of the season. The ultimate has been the horrible decisions in the past two playoffs (Gausman and Berrios inexplicably taken out of winnable games because of some bullshit analytics.......at least we won't be exposed to that). That's pretty much a gong show in my books. And best of all, they're going to run it back with this management team!!

 

[Discoverer]

I remember that first game well. JP couldn't catch Dickey's knuckleball. There was a lot of hype around that team but it fizzled out quickly.

Due to the offseason, this current team didn't have much hype. The 2021 season had more.

Yeah, I really don't see how this one compares to 2013. This one was a slow build: underwhelming 2023, disappointing/frustrating postseason, poor offseason where they didn't address their needs, followed by a huge let-down of a season. Most people still thought they would be good, but battle-for-a-wild-card-spot good.

Between the Marlins trade and the Dickey trade, 2013 was easily the most exciting offseason in the league and probably in the history of the Jays. They increased payroll by something like 40% in one offseason and added multiple star players to the team. Most people expected them to win the division or the first Wild Card.

I'm not on any precipice, but this season has been about as close to a gong show as you can be. I was expecting Chuck Barris to show up this weekend (I know he's dead but you get what I mean).

The team had a miserable finish to the season (7-17), finished 23rd of 30 teams (74-88), their farm system was ranked 24 out of 30 teams as of August, their bullpen is a mess, their starters are getting older, their offence was putrid (Schneider .191, Barger .197, Loperfido .197, Berroa .189), their defence faltered at the end of the season. The ultimate has been the horrible decisions in the past two playoffs (Gausman and Berrios inexplicably taken out of winnable games because of some bullshit analytics.......at least we won't be exposed to that). That's pretty much a gong show in my books. And best of all, they're going to run it back with this management team!!

That's a bit of a weird thing to add considering they were the best defensive team in the league for the second straight year.

 

[canucksfan]

They were 22 games behind the Yankees in 2012 (and 20 behind Baltimore). 'Expected to win the division' reeks of overreaction and delusion.

I personally remember just hoping to make the wildcard and see some playoff games. And my feelings when they didn't and it was 'just another Jays season' are nowhere near the disappointment I feel about 2024 and the way things have unfolded for the team in the last year.

Your argument is basically was the hype deserved. That argument is meaningless when comparing what team had
More hype The reality is, the 2013 team had a lot of excitement and hype around it. The team was expected to win around 90 games. The best and logical thing to look at is the season previews of 2013 and 2024. When you do, there’s isn’t much of a comparison.

 

[henryasteroidlionnet]

I'm not on any precipice, but this season has been about as close to a gong show as you can be. I was expecting Chuck Barris to show up this weekend (I know he's dead but you get what I mean).

The team had a miserable finish to the season (7-17), finished 23rd of 30 teams (74-88), their farm system was ranked 24 out of 30 teams as of August, their bullpen is a mess, their starters are getting older, their offence was putrid (Schneider .191, Barger .197, Loperfido .197, Berroa .189), their defence faltered at the end of the season. The ultimate has been the horrible decisions in the past two playoffs (Gausman and Berrios inexplicably taken out of winnable games because of some bullshit analytics.......at least we won't be exposed to that). That's pretty much a gong show in my books. And best of all, they're going to run it back with this management team!!

Yup and that last series against Miami was a disgrace. You can tell the entire team gave up. This gong show needs to end! Fire these clowns running this organization. Enough is enough!

 

[MS]

Your argument is basically was the hype deserved. That argument is meaningless when comparing what team had
More hype The reality is, the 2013 team had a lot of excitement and hype around it. The team was expected to win around 90 games. The best and logical thing to look at is the season previews of 2013 and 2024. When you do, there’s isn’t much of a comparison.

I’m including everything that happened since the last game of last year.

And other people are free to feel differently. 2013 didn’t really register with my that heavily because I was used to getting trampled by Boston/NYY and just hoping for a wildcard spot. Conversely, after 2021-22 (and even after the pause that was 2023) this felt to me like a team that was legitimately going to go to a WS and this season has just been beyond disappointing.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Yeah, I really don't see how this one compares to 2013. This one was a slow build: underwhelming 2023, disappointing/frustrating postseason, poor offseason where they didn't address their needs, followed by a huge let-down of a season. Most people still thought they would be good, but battle-for-a-wild-card-spot good.

Between the Marlins trade and the Dickey trade, 2013 was easily the most exciting offseason in the league and probably in the history of the Jays. They increased payroll by something like 40% in one offseason and added multiple star players to the team. Most people expected them to win the division or the first Wild Card.



That's a bit of a weird thing to add considering they were the best defensive team in the league for the second straight year.

Note that I said "at the end of the season". I was referring to the double digit errors in the month of September. Nevertheless, what's weird is saying they've been the best defensive team in the league. By what metrics? They were 20th in fielding percentage (.984). They were 23rd in number of errors. Looking at the categories of assists, errors, double plays, and fielding percentage together, they were 10th in the league (https://www.lineups.com/mlb-team-rankings/fielding).

Hmmm, I know you're a big fan of the Jays and I admire that but don't be an apologist for this regime. They've been terrible the past few years.

 

[MK78]

Relative to expectations, the 2024 Jays was the worst season I've ever experienced relative to expectations for a pro sports team I follow and the collective 'oh, well' is just astonishing to me.

What were the expectations? I sure as heck didn't have huge expectation based on the last off season...

I knew the starting pitching was going to regress, it did but not terribly, and the hitting was not addressed in any meaningful way, and the "positive regression" the brass pushed completely flopped.

At best I hoped they would have competed for the last WC late into the season. at worst I thought they'd be around .500.

I didn't think they'd be this bad, worst bullpen in all of baseball, worse even than the 121 loss White Sox, and pathetic offense with only one bright star, the one guy that positively regressed, and even him it took 2 months to get going.

This organization needs a shakeup. Clearly the upper management hasn't delivered after reaching a high in 2021, each year after that the team got progressively worse in offense.

 

[henryasteroidlionnet]

Guillermo Martinez fired. Two years too late. Not good enough for me. I need to see more changes.

Also, seems strategically timed so wednesday morning they can say they are listening and taking significant steps to fix what they broke. lol.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Mattingly has to be next.

 

[Discoverer]

Note that I said "at the end of the season". I was referring to the double digit errors in the month of September. Nevertheless, what's weird is saying they've been the best defensive team in the league. By what metrics? They were 20th in fielding percentage (.984). They were 23rd in number of errors. Looking at the categories of assists, errors, double plays, and fielding percentage together, they were 10th in the league (https://www.lineups.com/mlb-team-rankings/fielding).

Hmmm, I know you're a big fan of the Jays and I admire that but don't be an apologist for this regime. They've been terrible the past few years.

Based on stats that actually tell you how good they were defensively.

1st in baseball in DRS (106... second had 81, third had 64)
4th in UZR (24.9... first at 27.7)
1st in FRV (45... second had 37)
2nd in DEF (36.3... KC first with 37.9)

They won the team Gold Glove last year and there's a decent chance they're going to win it again.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Based on stats that actually tell you how good they were defensively.

1st in baseball in DRS (106... second had 81, third had 64)
4th in UZR (24.9... first at 27.7)
1st in FRV (45... second had 37)
2nd in DEF (36.3... KC first with 37.9)

They won the team Gold Glove last year and there's a decent chance they're going to win it again.

Errors and Fielding Percentage are two basic stats that should be used along with the advanced stats UZR and DRS to give a complete analysis of a players defensive acumen or ability and should not be totally disregarded or minimized. They're stats that sometimes tell us more about how games are directly won and lost. Nonetheless, I didn't say they weren't good defensively, only that they faltered late in the season.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Firing a guy two years too late isn't really any action and the fact that Shapiro and Atkins are doing the season ending presser means both are getting out unscathed.

Toronto sports, man, they really hate making the changes that are necessary in a front office, don't they?

 

[Suntouchable13]

Firing a guy two years too late isn't really any action and the fact that Shapiro and Atkins are doing the season ending presser means both are getting out unscathed.

Toronto sports, man, they really hate making the changes that are necessary in a front office, don't they?

I am surprised Rogers is ok spending 200+ million on payroll and coming in dead last. These guys have driven this team into the ground and need to go.

 

[Nineteen67]

Almost have to tip your cap to Shapiro and Atkins for having that level of “we don’t give a crap”.

 

[Nineteen67]

I am surprised Rogers is ok spending 200+ million on payroll and coming in dead last. These guys have driven this team into the ground and need to go.

As long as they’ve sold the tickets and have multi year commitments on the expensive seats, missing is actually better than travelling to one of those play in series.

They can always reduce payroll this winter and I don’t think they’ll go through the charade of pretending to sign UFAs because they still need just everything other than a 1B and SS. And they may decide to trade one or both and rebuild around someone

 

[GoonieFace]

How bout them Mets. Seems like they were the worst organization in baseball halfway through the season, yet they made the playoffs. It’s such a tough and random game, things can swing dramatically very quickly.

This team is far from a trainwreck. Atkins should be gone, but they have the pieces to turn this around quickly. Hopefully he’s not in charge of it.

 

[Suntouchable13]

How bout them Mets. Seems like they were the worst organization in baseball halfway through the season, yet they made the playoffs. It’s such a tough and random game, things can swing dramatically very quickly.

This team is far from a trainwreck. Atkins should be gone, but they have the pieces to turn this around quickly. Hopefully he’s not in charge of it.

The turn over in playoff teams is kind of crazy, at least in the AL. Only 2 of the 6 teams made the playoffs last year also. We have 4 new teams (NYY, Cleveland, Detroit, KC). That doesn't even happen in the NHL.

 

[MK78]

The turn over in playoff teams is kind of crazy, at least in the AL. Only 2 of the 6 teams made the playoffs last year also. We have 4 new teams (NYY, Cleveland, Detroit, KC). That doesn't even happen in the NHL.

AL East sucked this year, and the AL Central teams made the playoffs on the back of the White Sox 121 losses.

I'm rooting for the Tigers, they've had 10 years of futility.

 

[Suntouchable13]

AL East sucked this year, and the AL Central teams made the playoffs on the back of the White Sox 121 losses.

I'm rooting for the Tigers, they've had 10 years of futility.

Tigers could be this year’s wildcard team that goes all the way. There’s always one every year it seems.

 

[mikeyz]

How in the actual f*** can Rogers justify bringing Shapiro and Atkins back?

 

[Puckstuff]

AL East sucked this year, and the AL Central teams made the playoffs on the back of the White Sox 121 losses.

I'm rooting for the Tigers, they've had 10 years of futility.

One reason to be optimistic: The Tigers only had one player with an OPS over .735 this season (*minimum 90 games played), and they are in the playoffs. Carpenter was good for them but only played half the season.

K.C. only had four players with an OPS of at least .743, and their second, third, and fourth best hitters had OPSs of .743, .760, and .786.

This shows that offense is down league-wide, and just landing one big bat to pair with Vlad could help the Jays get back to the playoffs quickly.

We also have some big bounce-back candidates in Bichette, Springer, Kirk, etc., and Horwitz looks promising, all being .750 OPS+ candidates.