Transfer: 2024 Summer Transfer Window - Open Window Discussion

[JPBolts]

Get that your post was tongue in cheek, but Flynn Downes played there on loan last season and isn’t by any measure a largely unknown academy player. Not really the same.

I'm not trying to compare it to the Kellyman/Maatsen deal, more just pointing out that there's been a lot more "swap" deals going on this summer. Though, I am surprised that Southampton is letting KWP go

 

[KJS14]

Yep, and I think that's exactly why transfer values are always subjective. how much someone is worth to a team is going to be different to how they are worth to others. I did look at Arsenal sale history and was a bit stunned, that is a terrible record. I guess that having a record of selling players for a decent amount might also weigh in on how much you are willing to sell.

Agreed that transfer fees are always going to be subjective, and you have insane money being thrown around by tons of clubs. Hell, maybe the Kellyman fee ends up being a steal for Chelsea in the future. If you told me that United bought Kellyman for 20M, I'd probably think they overpaid but that'd be normal. If Chelsea overpaid for some teenager from France, then so be it.

But I don't understand why certain people here are pretending this was an expected outcome and not mainly a PSR scheme. It's less about the fee, and more about all of the teams in PSR trouble swapping players with each other a week before 6/30 rather than selling to other clubs. The only way they could have made it more obvious is if they put out a press release with some table/calculation showing exactly how they intentionally structured the deal to comply with PSR.

 

[Savant]

Yep -- and I'd say the interesting case study comparison will be Archie Gray (if he gets sold this summer).

Two more teams that failed PSR. And Would be another Chelsea burial

and 2 more teams involved in a swap deal!

going to keep seeing these when the teams that would need to vote against them for supermajority are the ones failing the rules

 

[bleedblue1223]

Agreed that transfer fees are always going to be subjective, and you have insane money being thrown around by tons of clubs. Hell, maybe the Kellyman fee ends up being a steal for Chelsea in the future. If you told me that United bought Kellyman for 20M, I'd probably think they overpaid but that'd be normal. If Chelsea overpaid for some teenager from France, then so be it.

But I don't understand why certain people here are pretending this was an expected outcome and not mainly a PSR scheme. It's less about the fee, and more about all of the teams in PSR trouble swapping players with each other a week before 6/30 rather than selling to other clubs. The only way they could have made it more obvious is if they put out a press release with some table/calculation showing exactly how they intentionally structured the deal to comply with PSR.

You should have expected that clubs with PSR implications would make sales that would make them PSR compliant. What was your expectation? They just sit their twiddling their thumbs?

 

[luiginb]

Emil Holm, who was on loan at Atalanta this season, was bought by Bologna for 7 mil from Serie B Spezia. Not a big fan, especially for a player who's supposed to play UCL next year.

 

[Savant]

You should have expected that clubs with PSR implications would make sales that would make them PSR compliant. What was your expectation? They just sit their twiddling their thumbs?

This is hilarious.

You got butt hurt when I said this was price fixing, and now you have arrived at “why wouldn’t we price fix this”

Not going to bother even mentioning the nonsense that was been spouted in between these things happening, but at least you got to the right place

 

[KJS14]

You should have expected that clubs with PSR implications would make sales that would make them PSR compliant. What was your expectation? They just sit their twiddling their thumbs?

Maybe they could have just sold players to make them PSR compliant rather than crafting swap transfers for inflated fees with the other PSR impacted teams. But keep tossing around the straw man that I'm suggesting they should have just twiddled their thumbs and accepted the fines/point deductions...

 

[bleedblue1223]

This is hilarious.

You got butt hurt when I said this was price fixing, and now you have arrived at “why wouldn’t we price fix this”

At least you got there

It's not price fixing, I never got butt hurt about that.

What's the implication from you guys, I genuinely don't get it. Are you surprised that clubs with PSR issues are getting deals done before the deadline and clubs that don't have that deadline aren't doing deals? Especially with international competitions going on, of course other clubs aren't motivated to get deals done.

 

[Savant]

It's not price fixing, I never got butt hurt about that.

What's the implication from you guys, I genuinely don't get it. Are you surprised that clubs with PSR issues are getting deals done before the deadline and clubs that don't have that deadline aren't doing deals? Especially with international competitions going on, of course other clubs aren't motivated to get deals done.

It’s 100% price fixing. When you pick a price out of thin air just because that’s the number needed to resolve the PSR numbers, that’s price fixing

 

[bleedblue1223]

Maybe they could have just sold players to make them PSR compliant rather than crafting swap transfers for inflated fees with the other PSR impacted teams. But keep tossing around the straw man that I'm suggesting they should have just twiddled their thumbs and accepted the fines/point deductions...

Other clubs without PSR implications aren't motivated to buy right now, they would be holding all the leverage in a negotiations, that's why you are seeing PSR clubs as the motivated ones.

It’s 100% price fixing. When you pick a price out of thin air just because that’s the number needed to resolve the PSR numbers, that’s price fixing

That's not what's happening, and you wouldn't even have the evidence to prove it.

 

[Blender]

It’s 100% price fixing. When you pick a price out of thin air just because that’s the number needed to resolve the PSR numbers, that’s price fixing

Literally all transfer fees are "picked out of thin air". It's an open market, players go for what clubs are willing to pay for them and other clubs are willing to sell them for.

You seriously underestimate that fees and transfers have been structured for financial reasons since the f***ing stone age.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Really should have seen selling hotels to themselves coming, tbh.

 

[Savant]

Other clubs without PSR implications aren't motivated to buy right now, they would be holding all the leverage in a negotiations, that's why you are seeing PSR clubs as the motivated ones.

That's not what's happening, and you wouldn't even have the evidence to prove it.

no evidence? Either you believe in the tooth fairy too, or you have a poster of your lawyer on the wall like the banners at the Ettihad.

Ray Charles could see 20m for Kellyman being price fixing. Also you are the one talking about the urgency to get these deals done before the 30th. You are showing your own ass here.

Literally all transfer fees are "picked out of thin air". It's an open market, players go for what clubs are willing to pay for them and other clubs are willing to sell them for.

You seriously underestimate that fees and transfers have been structured for financial reasons since the f***ing stone age.

Stop. And yall say that I’m dropping hyperbole.

20m for academy players is unprecedented by anyone besides Chelsea.

Just stop

 

[luiginb]

Kellyman + future considerations cost 20 mil guys (/s kinda...)

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Anyway, I think this topic pending additional like-for-like deals has kind of run its course. It’s a shifty move among a string of them for Chelsea and includes other PSR dependent clubs now.

No one is going to shift their take on this, I think we can all move on. Until the next one lol

 

[KJS14]

Other clubs without PSR implications aren't motivated to buy right now, they would be holding all the leverage in a negotiations, that's why you are seeing PSR clubs as the motivated ones.


That's not what's happening, and you wouldn't even have the evidence to prove it.

So you're telling me that putting yourself into an unfavorable financial position based on your own past decisions can negatively affect your leverage in this situation? Golly, now I really do feel bad for Chelsea/Villa/Everton. They shouldn't have to face the consequences of their own actions.

You guys are acting like there hasn't been a single other transfer during the window...

Literally all transfer fees are "picked out of thin air". It's an open market, players go for what clubs are willing to pay for them and other clubs are willing to sell them for.

You seriously underestimate that fees and transfers have been structured for financial reasons since the f***ing stone age.

Couldn't be more wrong lol. The buyer and seller aren't both doing transfers for financial reasons regularly. They're doing them for sporting reasons, where the seller does want to get the best price they can, and the buyer wants to acquire the player for sporting reasons at a reasonable price.

Really should have seen selling hotels to themselves coming, tbh.

Why wouldn't a team with PSR implications sell fixed assets to another one of their holding companies to turn a profit? You'd have to be a total idiot to not see that one coming.

 

[Jussi]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1806634189959147984

 

[Blender]

Stop. And yall say that I’m dropping hyperbole.

20m for academy players is unprecedented by anyone besides Chelsea.

Just stop

Here's the top 50 transfers for under-18s of all time. Most of these players came from lesser leagues, which quality PL academy players are capable of playing in:

#	Player	Nat.	Joined	Fee
1​	Endrick	Brazil	Real Madrid	€47.50m
2​	Rodrygo	Brazil	Real Madrid	€45.00m
		Spain
3​	Vinicius Junior	Brazil	Real Madrid	€45.00m
		Spain
4​	Vitor Roque	Brazil	FC Barcelona	€40.00m
5​	Fábio Silva	Portugal	Wolverhampton Wanderers	€40.00m
6​	Luke Shaw	England	Manchester United	€37.50m
7​	Wayne Rooney	England	Manchester United	€37.00m
8​	Renato Sanches	Portugal	Bayern Munich	€35.00m
		Sao Tome and Principe
9​	Estêvão	Brazil	Chelsea FC	€34.00m
10​	Alessandro Bastoni	Italy	Inter Milan	€31.10m
11​	Eduardo Camavinga	France	Real Madrid	€31.00m
		Congo
12​	Antonio Cassano	Italy	AS Roma	€31.00m
13​	Jude Bellingham	England	Borussia Dortmund	€30.15m
		Ireland
14​	Reinier	Brazil	Real Madrid	€30.00m
15​	William Saliba	France	Arsenal FC	€30.00m
		Cameroon
16​	Tino Livramento	England	Southampton FC	€26.20m
		Scotland
17​	Jérémy Doku	Belgium	Stade Rennais FC	€26.00m
		Ghana
18​	Alexandre Pato	Brazil	AC Milan	€24.00m
19​	Luis Guilherme	Brazil	West Ham United	€23.00m
20​	Pedri	Spain	FC Barcelona	€23.00m
21​	Sergio Agüero	Argentina	Atlético de Madrid	€23.00m
		Spain
22​	Roméo Lavia	Belgium	Southampton FC	€22.26m
23​	Amad Diallo	Cote d'Ivoire	Manchester United	€21.30m
		Italy
24​	Pietro Pellegri	Italy	AS Monaco	€20.90m
25​	Jadon Sancho	England	Borussia Dortmund	€20.59m
		Jamaica
26​	Stephan El Shaarawy	Italy	AC Milan	€20.30m
		Egypt
27​	Gabriel Moscardo	Brazil	Paris Saint-Germain	€20.00m
28​	Arda Güler	Türkiye	Real Madrid	€20.00m
29​	Mathys Tel	France	Bayern Munich	€20.00m
		Guadeloupe
30​	Willem Geubbels	France	AS Monaco	€20.00m
		Netherlands
31​	Malick Fofana	Belgium	Olympique Lyon	€19.50m
		Guinea
32​	Cristiano Ronaldo	Portugal	Manchester United	€19.00m
33​	Paulinho	Brazil	Bayer 04 Leverkusen	€18.50m
34​	Dayot Upamecano	France	RB Leipzig	€18.50m
		Guinea-Bissau
35​	Claudio Echeverri	Argentina	Manchester City	€18.50m
36​	Arthur Vermeeren	Belgium	Atlético de Madrid	€18.00m
37​	Carney Chukwuemeka	England	Chelsea FC	€18.00m
		Nigeria
38​	Pape Matar Sarr	Senegal	Tottenham Hotspur	€16.90m
39​	Ricardo Pepi	United States	FC Augsburg	€16.36m
		Mexico
40​	Deivid Washington	Brazil	Chelsea FC	€16.00m
41​	Ilaix Moriba	Guinea	RB Leipzig	€16.00m
		Spain
42​	Ângelo	Brazil	Chelsea FC	€15.00m
43​	El Chadaille Bitshiabu	France	RB Leipzig	€15.00m
		DR Congo
44​	Romelu Lukaku	Belgium	Chelsea FC	€15.00m
		DR Congo
45​	Gareth Bale	Wales	Tottenham Hotspur	€14.70m
46​	Davide Frattesi	Italy	US Sassuolo	€14.60m
47​	Sébastien Frey	France	Inter Milan	€14.00m
48​	Alphonso Davies	Canada	Bayern Munich	€14.00m
		Liberia
49​	Diego Lainez	Mexico	Real Betis Balompié	€14.00m
		Spain
50​	Valeri Bozhinov	Bulgaria	ACF Fiorentina	€14.00m
		Italy

Couldn't be more wrong lol. The buyer and seller aren't both doing transfers for financial reasons regularly. They're doing them for sporting reasons, where the seller does want to get the best price they can, and the buyer wants to acquire the player for sporting reasons at a reasonable price.

Please read the comment you quoted again. I said the deal was structured for financial reasons.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Here's the top 50 transfers for under-18s of all time. Most of these players came from lesser leagues, which quality PL academy players are capable of playing in:

#	Player	Nat.	Joined	Fee
1​	Endrick	Brazil	Real Madrid	€47.50m
2​	Rodrygo	Brazil	Real Madrid	€45.00m
		Spain
3​	Vinicius Junior	Brazil	Real Madrid	€45.00m
		Spain
4​	Vitor Roque	Brazil	FC Barcelona	€40.00m
5​	Fábio Silva	Portugal	Wolverhampton Wanderers	€40.00m
6​	Luke Shaw	England	Manchester United	€37.50m
7​	Wayne Rooney	England	Manchester United	€37.00m
8​	Renato Sanches	Portugal	Bayern Munich	€35.00m
		Sao Tome and Principe
9​	Estêvão	Brazil	Chelsea FC	€34.00m
10​	Alessandro Bastoni	Italy	Inter Milan	€31.10m
11​	Eduardo Camavinga	France	Real Madrid	€31.00m
		Congo
12​	Antonio Cassano	Italy	AS Roma	€31.00m
13​	Jude Bellingham	England	Borussia Dortmund	€30.15m
		Ireland
14​	Reinier	Brazil	Real Madrid	€30.00m
15​	William Saliba	France	Arsenal FC	€30.00m
		Cameroon
16​	Tino Livramento	England	Southampton FC	€26.20m
		Scotland
17​	Jérémy Doku	Belgium	Stade Rennais FC	€26.00m
		Ghana
18​	Alexandre Pato	Brazil	AC Milan	€24.00m
19​	Luis Guilherme	Brazil	West Ham United	€23.00m
20​	Pedri	Spain	FC Barcelona	€23.00m
21​	Sergio Agüero	Argentina	Atlético de Madrid	€23.00m
		Spain
22​	Roméo Lavia	Belgium	Southampton FC	€22.26m
23​	Amad Diallo	Cote d'Ivoire	Manchester United	€21.30m
		Italy
24​	Pietro Pellegri	Italy	AS Monaco	€20.90m
25​	Jadon Sancho	England	Borussia Dortmund	€20.59m
		Jamaica
26​	Stephan El Shaarawy	Italy	AC Milan	€20.30m
		Egypt
27​	Gabriel Moscardo	Brazil	Paris Saint-Germain	€20.00m
28​	Arda Güler	Türkiye	Real Madrid	€20.00m
29​	Mathys Tel	France	Bayern Munich	€20.00m
		Guadeloupe
30​	Willem Geubbels	France	AS Monaco	€20.00m
		Netherlands
31​	Malick Fofana	Belgium	Olympique Lyon	€19.50m
		Guinea
32​	Cristiano Ronaldo	Portugal	Manchester United	€19.00m
33​	Paulinho	Brazil	Bayer 04 Leverkusen	€18.50m
34​	Dayot Upamecano	France	RB Leipzig	€18.50m
		Guinea-Bissau
35​	Claudio Echeverri	Argentina	Manchester City	€18.50m
36​	Arthur Vermeeren	Belgium	Atlético de Madrid	€18.00m
37​	Carney Chukwuemeka	England	Chelsea FC	€18.00m
		Nigeria
38​	Pape Matar Sarr	Senegal	Tottenham Hotspur	€16.90m
39​	Ricardo Pepi	United States	FC Augsburg	€16.36m
		Mexico
40​	Deivid Washington	Brazil	Chelsea FC	€16.00m
41​	Ilaix Moriba	Guinea	RB Leipzig	€16.00m
		Spain
42​	Ângelo	Brazil	Chelsea FC	€15.00m
43​	El Chadaille Bitshiabu	France	RB Leipzig	€15.00m
		DR Congo
44​	Romelu Lukaku	Belgium	Chelsea FC	€15.00m
		DR Congo
45​	Gareth Bale	Wales	Tottenham Hotspur	€14.70m
46​	Davide Frattesi	Italy	US Sassuolo	€14.60m
47​	Sébastien Frey	France	Inter Milan	€14.00m
48​	Alphonso Davies	Canada	Bayern Munich	€14.00m
		Liberia
49​	Diego Lainez	Mexico	Real Betis Balompié	€14.00m
		Spain
50​	Valeri Bozhinov	Bulgaria	ACF Fiorentina	€14.00m
		Italy

This really isn't making the point you think it's making. The list is a bunch of superstars in the making who were drawing interest from a bunch of big European clubs before their sale and/or were getting international attention from the media.

 

[bleedblue1223]

This really isn't making the point you think it's making. The list is a bunch of superstars in the making who were drawing interest from a bunch of big European clubs before their sale and/or were getting international attention from the media.

At the top of the list with fees much higher than Kellyman, sure, but not so much at the bottom of the list.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

At the top of the list with fees much higher than Kellyman, sure, but not so much at the bottom of the list.

Pretty sure some of them also already had big release clauses.

 

[KJS14]

Here's the top 50 transfers for under-18s of all time. Most of these players came from lesser leagues, which quality PL academy players are capable of playing in:

Most of the examples in your list are u18 players that were playing for their first teams. There's a select few that were still playing youth football, and they were mostly considered to be some of the top prospects in the entire world, not just Villa's academy.

Please read the comment you quoted again. I said the deal was structured for financial reasons.

Yeah, teams will structure deals for financial reasons like cash flow (i.e. rather pay in installments). And teams have chosen to do swap deals as separate transfers for accounting reasons. But there's not some long-dated history of teams inflating transfer fees in those swap deals to comply with PSR rules for a deadline coming up in 1 week. In fact, that's against PSR rules.

 

[Savant]

Here's the top 50 transfers for under-18s of all time. Most of these players came from lesser leagues, which quality PL academy players are capable of playing in:

“Lesser” and “capable” are subjective.

How about you filter your list to those who were playing in senior men’s leagues, and then let’s see what it looks likes

You’ve got Wayne Rooney on there who dropped 15 PL goals in 67 appearances at Everton before going to United. Jude and Bale played in the Championship. If you don’t see the difference, you are choosing not to.

 

[Peen]

there were so many ways to have gone about making the argument that the dewsbury hall signing is redundant and confusing without saying

“they play in the same third of the field”

like that’s just incoherent

 

[Savant]

there were so many ways to have gone about making the argument that the dewsbury hall signing is redundant and confusing without saying

“they play in the same third of the field”

like that’s just incoherent

Is the midfield not a third of the field? He’s not a forward/winger/attacking player or a defender/goalie/defendimg last I checked