Blue Jays Discussion: 2024 Season - Complete without a great title in keeping with the performance

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Jojalu

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Feb 22, 2019
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Caminiti does not have a "much higher" ceiling. This term implies that his stuff and command is bound to linearly progress year over year, which has no basis in reality (hence why most teams have stopped coveting "the best HS pitcher" in the 1st round and why they typically fall on draft day). Brandon Barriera's velocity dipped almost immediately after turning pro, despite being "athletic". Same thing happened to Adam Kloffenstein.
I am just to going to say having 15 years of working with both high school and college kids, that a high school pitcher almost always is considered to have a higher ceiling than a college pitcher who has played 3 years.

The acience is much tougher to nail down for high school players though.

Today we should probably see Canada's best highschool arm go. I have had the pleasure of coaching him for the past 3 years. Although there are better arms in college right now, he projects to be better than all of them right now
 

metafour

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Apr 6, 2008
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I am just to going to say having 15 years of working with both high school and college kids, that a high school pitcher almost always is considered to have a higher ceiling than a college pitcher who has played 3 years.

The acience is much tougher to nail down for high school players though.

Today we should probably see Canada's best highschool arm go. I have had the pleasure of coaching him for the past 3 years. Although there are better arms in college right now, he projects to be better than all of them right now

Pitcher "ceiling" is dependant on several tertiary qualities that have no basis on magically being favoured in a HS pitcher (as opposed to a College pitcher). A pitcher's ability to stay healthy makes up a massive portion of ultimate ceiling (if you don't pitch, it doesn't matter what you can or can't do on the mound). Would you say that Caminiti has a better likelihood of remaining healthy than Yesavage does?

Yesavage has better present stuff and command than Caminiti does. He is more proven by way of dominating higher competition. He obviously has better health indicators by virtue of age and track record. So really your "much higher ceiling" claim is entirely dependent on Caminiti being 17 and projecting consistent growth and improvement year over year, which is entirely possible, but has been proven time and time again to be incredibly spotty and unreliable. Yes, there is a greater than non-zero chance that his stuff keeps ticking up and he ends up being a LHP who sits 96-99 with a plus-plus changeup and a plus breaking ball. But this is a weak/lazy analysis of "ceiling".

Your ultimate conclusion ("a high school pitcher almost always is considered to have a higher ceiling than a college pitcher") is refuted by the actual demographics of the best MLB starting pitchers. If what you said was irrefutably true, then you would expect the best MLB starters to lean heavily towards players who were signed out of HS. This isn't the case at all. If you look at the fWAR leaders so far this season:

1) Garrett Crochet - College
2) Chris Sale - College
3) Tarik Skubal - College
4) Cole Ragans - HS
5) Tanner Houck - College
6) George Kirby - College
7) Christopher sanchez - IFA
8) Logan Webb - HS
9) Tyler Glasnow - HS
10) Ranger Suarez - IFA
11) Sonny Gray - College
12) Zack Wheeler - HS
13) Seth Lugo - College
14) Joe Ryan - College
15) Logan Gilbert - College
16) Erick Fedde - College
17) Corbin Burnes - College
18) Hunter Greene - HS
19) Dylan Cease - HS
20) MacKenzie Gore - HS

7 out of 20 (35%) isn't bad, but it certainly doesn't correlate with "HS pitchers have the highest ceiling". What you'll also find interesting that that many of those College pitchers weren't even "elite" draft picks. Guys like Houck, Kirby, Fedde, Gray were back end or bottom-half 1st rounders, then you have guys like Skubal, Burnes, Ryan, and Lugo who weren't even near the 1st round of their respective draft years. At face value it makes sense to suggest that a HS pitcher has more room for improvement, but in actuality what you often find is that a lot of them regress, while there are College pitchers who actually see consistent improvement in stuff. Tarik Skubal jumped jumped from a 94.5 vFA in his first three MLB seasons to 95.8 last year, and he is at 97.0 this year. So his velocity has spiked at age 26 and 27. And again, he was a 9th round pick out of College.
 

Jojalu

Registered User
Feb 22, 2019
6,197
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Pitcher "ceiling" is dependant on several tertiary qualities that have no basis on magically being favoured in a HS pitcher (as opposed to a College pitcher). A pitcher's ability to stay healthy makes up a massive portion of ultimate ceiling (if you don't pitch, it doesn't matter what you can or can't do on the mound). Would you say that Caminiti has a better likelihood of remaining healthy than Yesavage does?

Yesavage has better present stuff and command than Caminiti does. He is more proven by way of dominating higher competition. He obviously has better health indicators by virtue of age and track record. So really your "much higher ceiling" claim is entirely dependent on Caminiti being 17 and projecting consistent growth and improvement year over year, which is entirely possible, but has been proven time and time again to be incredibly spotty and unreliable. Yes, there is a greater than non-zero chance that his stuff keeps ticking up and he ends up being a LHP who sits 96-99 with a plus-plus changeup and a plus breaking ball. But this is a weak/lazy analysis of "ceiling".

Your ultimate conclusion ("a high school pitcher almost always is considered to have a higher ceiling than a college pitcher") is refuted by the actual demographics of the best MLB starting pitchers. If what you said was irrefutably true, then you would expect the best MLB starters to lean heavily towards players who were signed out of HS. This isn't the case at all. If you look at the fWAR leaders so far this season:

1) Garrett Crochet - College
2) Chris Sale - College
3) Tarik Skubal - College
4) Cole Ragans - HS
5) Tanner Houck - College
6) George Kirby - College
7) Christopher sanchez - IFA
8) Logan Webb - HS
9) Tyler Glasnow - HS
10) Ranger Suarez - IFA
11) Sonny Gray - College
12) Zack Wheeler - HS
13) Seth Lugo - College
14) Joe Ryan - College
15) Logan Gilbert - College
16) Erick Fedde - College
17) Corbin Burnes - College
18) Hunter Greene - HS
19) Dylan Cease - HS
20) MacKenzie Gore - HS

7 out of 20 (35%) isn't bad, but it certainly doesn't correlate with "HS pitchers have the highest ceiling". What you'll also find interesting that that many of those College pitchers weren't even "elite" draft picks. Guys like Houck, Kirby, Fedde, Gray were back end or bottom-half 1st rounders, then you have guys like Skubal, Burnes, Ryan, and Lugo who weren't even near the 1st round of their respective draft years. At face value it makes sense to suggest that a HS pitcher has more room for improvement, but in actuality what you often find is that a lot of them regress, while there are College pitchers who actually see consistent improvement in stuff. Tarik Skubal jumped jumped from a 94.5 vFA in his first three MLB seasons to 95.8 last year, and he is at 97.0 this year. So his velocity has spiked at age 26 and 27. And again, he was a 9th round pick out of College.
Yesavage to me looks like he has to work hard to win his delivery which could lead to arm issues.

Watching a hs kid pitch who has an easy repeatable delivery and with the right nutrition and strength program you can sort of gage where the velo might end up.

I do believe it is a crapshoot no matter what. Unless of course it's someone like Skenes.

Higher ceiling but I would say much less certain is how most scouts view HS pitchers.
 

Discoverer

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Apr 11, 2012
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Really thought they would go with college bats
Immediately followed by college 3B Sean Keys in the 4th round.

Seems like whenever anyone says something about the strategy, they immediately change direction.

"Seems like they're focused on college players who can contribute now."
*Jays pick a 17-year-old HS pitcher*
"I thought they would go for college bats."
*Jays pick a bat-first college player*

If that's how it's working, then... hmmm I really thought they would have drafted the next Ohtani by now.
 

canucksfan

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Mar 16, 2002
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Immediately followed by college 3B Sean Keys in the 4th round.

Seems like whenever anyone says something about the strategy, they immediately change direction.

"Seems like they're focused on college players who can contribute now."
*Jays pick a 17-year-old HS pitcher*
"I thought they would go for college bats."
*Jays pick a bat-first college player*

If that's how it's working, then... hmmm I really thought they would have drafted the next Ohtani by now.
It must be difficult to do an MLB draft. You have to think about money being used as well as if a player will sign with you. NHL draft is much easier in that sense.

Jays most likely weren't expecting Yesavage would fall. An incredible amount of preparation has to be done.
 
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Canada4Gold

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Dec 22, 2010
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Not sure how I feel about the draft so far. Getting the 11th ranked guy at 20 sounds good but when I read Yesavage scouting reports I'm feeling Austin Martin vibes which I felt when we picked Martin too.Guy who dropped, seems like he could be good and move quick. A lot of his stuff reads like it's good but not outstanding which plays less the higher up you get. Fastball is fine but "overcomes lack of life" with a high arm slot that apparently carries extra injury potential. His offspeed stuff sounds like it 's decent but no plus plus stuff. I hope I'm wrong, which I am a lot of the time so we'll see. Just not a great feeling about him yet.

The 2nd rounder feels underwhelming.

I like the 3rd and 4th picks. HS arm that feels a lot like Tiedemann and Maroudis, with potential for added velo as they add muscle. High producing bat that comes from a lesser league so could be overlooked but has produced well with wood bats at the cape cod league.

Other guys are kind of meh but once we get beyond the 4th expectations have to drop, and possibly have to save money sometimes. Couple of them are ranked which means they have some potential.

If my gut about Yesavage is wrong I love the draft. If it's right then I'm uneasy.
 

metafour

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Apr 6, 2008
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Not sure how I feel about the draft so far. Getting the 11th ranked guy at 20 sounds good but when I read Yesavage scouting reports I'm feeling Austin Martin vibes which I felt when we picked Martin too.Guy who dropped, seems like he could be good and move quick. A lot of his stuff reads like it's good but not outstanding which plays less the higher up you get. Fastball is fine but "overcomes lack of life" with a high arm slot that apparently carries extra injury potential. His offspeed stuff sounds like it 's decent but no plus plus stuff. I hope I'm wrong, which I am a lot of the time so we'll see. Just not a great feeling about him yet.

His fastball has elite shape (measured 22 inches of IVB which might be a bit inflated on collegiate trackers, but for reference anything reaching 20 inches is considered elite vertical movement in the MLB). His offspeed pitches produced elite whiff rates across the board this season - there is at minimum one plus pitch there.

I think you're falling for the "polished pitcher = average stuff" paradox. A guy can have both great stuff and be polished at the same time. It sounds like he fell because some teams don't like the vertical arm path - but given the comical increase in pitcher injuries does anyone even know anymore what is "injury prone" and what isn't?
 

dredeye

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Mar 3, 2008
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metafour

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Apr 6, 2008
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Really seems like we need to go under slot on these guys to lock up Yesavage. Because if not why are we drafting guys so far out of the rankings.

The rankings mean very little at that point. If you want context: 9 of the players selected in the 4th round weren't even on MLB.com's Top 250, and another 6 of the players selected were ranked 100+ spots lower than their actual draft slot.

But also, they need to make up money for Johnny King. His pick has a $767K slot, but I'd bet he signs for something like $1.5 million similar to Maroudis last year. Yesavage might get slightly over slot, but I doubt its significant.

They may also be lining up a HS player for the 11th round.
 

canucksfan

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Mar 16, 2002
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They seem to like teams with no power so that adds up. Not very happy with the draft which is what I expected
Ya, it definitely runs through the organization now. Likely why Mattingly is still with the team. Up until 2022, the organization liked power bats. I remember them trotting out Derek Fisher. Low IQ player, high K% but a lot of power potential. In the 21/22 seasons, the Jays had great power, and even in 2020.

Did the M's series change them or was it something else?
 

Woodman19

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Jun 14, 2008
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Ya, it definitely runs through the organization now. Likely why Mattingly is still with the team. Up until 2022, the organization liked power bats. I remember them trotting out Derek Fisher. Low IQ player, high K% but a lot of power potential. In the 21/22 seasons, the Jays had great power, and even in 2020.

Did the M's series change them or was it something else?
Usually defensively sound players arent big power guys so I assume its related to the player type we are after.
 
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metafour

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Apr 6, 2008
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Ya, it definitely runs through the organization now. Likely why Mattingly is still with the team. Up until 2022, the organization liked power bats. I remember them trotting out Derek Fisher. Low IQ player, high K% but a lot of power potential. In the 21/22 seasons, the Jays had great power, and even in 2020.

Did the M's series change them or was it something else?

I don't think this really correlates as much as you think it does.

Their first round pick last year: Arjun Nimmala - 60+ grade power, major contact concerns. Their next highest drafted hitter (Jace Bohrofen) had the same profile.

Their top hitting prospects:

Martinez: Power bat, contact concerns
Nimmala: Power bat, contact concerns
Leo Jimenez: Contact driven
Addison Barger: Power bat, contact concerns
Alan Roden: Contact driven
Enmanuel Bonilla: Power over contact profile

Their most recent significant trade was moving a no-power contact oriented catcher (Moreno) for a CF who can hit for power but struggles to make consistent contact (Varsho).

They ARE trying to develop and bring in power hitters. The problem is that they literally haven't been able to develop ANY type of hitter successfully. Their contact oriented guys haven't unlocked power (which is what a team hopes to develop when they draft one) and their power-oriented guys haven't progressed as hitters.

If they were tailoring to "contact", then they wouldn't have used their 1st round pick last year on arguably the most power-projected hitter in the 1st round. Point blank.
 

TheMadHatTrick

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Nov 2, 2008
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Bazzell sounds like an interesting one. Had to edit because I didn’t realize we finished the days drafting lol
He seems like a typical Toronto pick. The hit tool, swing decisions, plate discipline. He's like Kasavich except a catcher.
 

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