Blue Jays Discussion: 2024 Season (better title pending)

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tmlfan98

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For everyone in this thread who was so sure that the FO had nothing to do with Bassitt clarifying his comments, Shi Davidi pretty much admitted that him, Zwelling and the FO were united in wanting clarification.
Blair: What's your sense of the message he wanted to get out there? And do you think there's any, I hesitate to use the word fallout. You think there's any reaction to this from the front office or from John Schneider?

Shi: I'm sure that the front office raised it with him and said, what did you mean? And that was the question that Arden and I just approached him with was just, hey, what did you mean by this?
The description below does not strike me as an organization that faces only situational problems that are unfixable rather than structural:
Shi: I think there was just a lot of truth in what he said and really just a lot of things that have been painfully obvious if you've been watching all season long.

Blair: And, of course, the beauty of that is that even if that wasn't the message he meant to send, that's how it kind of landed and in some ways that might... In some ways that might accomplish something to his benefit, if you know what I'm saying.

Shi: Yeah, I mean, look, I think a lot of people, and I've heard this in private conversations, that a lot of people are sort of acknowledging a lot of hard truths about where the Blue Jays are as an organization this year, right? That a lot of this organization has come under the microscope, rightly so, based on where they were a few years ago and where they are now and what's happened with the window of opportunity.

This is what it is. This is what everybody's seeing. And so, you know, having it out there, having this discussion happen, having maybe some people in the organization have to face what other people see and how they perceive them, you know, that can only be healthy because that's what you're going to have to do in order to move forward. And as opposed to thinking everything's all right, I mean, it's not.

 

Blitzkrug

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Damn. i wanted him to get at least one game in Toronto so the fans could say goodbye. But i guess if he couldn't do it on his terms (as in playing well enough to make the team on his own merit) he decided he's done.

His instagram confirms this;

Toronto + Canada, I wanted to play in front of you. Sigh, I tried with all my heart to play for my people. I’m just not good anymore. Thank you for all the support during my attempt.
Always liked Votto obviously being Canadian but i respect this even more. No pity at bats or appearances, he goes out on his own terms after being given a shot to compete and realizing he doesn't have it anymore (2023 kinda told us that but usually the athlete has to learn it themselves.)

Hopefully he joins Walker and Jenkins in the hall of fame one day.
 

MS

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Looks like Votto might have been holding out for this series either in the hopes of getting up or just to time his retirement for when the Reds were in his home town.
 

canucksfan

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For everyone in this thread who was so sure that the FO had nothing to do with Bassitt clarifying his comments, Shi Davidi pretty much admitted that him, Zwelling and the FO were united in wanting clarification.

The description below does not strike me as an organization that faces only situational problems that are unfixable rather than structural:


You stated Arden was shilling for the FO. Not a surprise if the front office asked Chris what he meant by his comments. Furthermore, like most people following the team, Arden and Shi asked Chris to clarify his comments because they were vague. Chris clarified them. I don't see how these comments Arden was shilling for the FO.

Yeah, I mean, look, I think a lot of people, and I've heard this in private conversations, that a lot of people are sort of acknowledging a lot of hard truths about where the Blue Jays are as an organization this year, right? That a lot of this organization has come under the microscope, rightly so, based on where they were a few years ago and where they are now and what's happened with the window of opportunity.

The above is vague from Shi. It's been an awful year. Atkins has a bad offseason but even if he has a fantastic one, there are a lot of players who have had down years, Bassitt included. I would not be surprised there is some who aren't keen on Mattingly, Martinez, and John Schneider.
 

MK78

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Looks like Votto might have been holding out for this series either in the hopes of getting up or just to time his retirement for when the Reds were in his home town.
Who knows. I'm just glad he called it quits, and not gonna take a roster spot for guys that need to develop and get a good run in this wasted season.

The whole thing was a wild shot in the dark anyway, maybe if he didnt get injured in spring training.
 
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tmlfan98

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You stated Arden was shilling for the FO. Not a surprise if the front office asked Chris what he meant by his comments. Furthermore, like most people following the team, Arden and Shi asked Chris to clarify his comments because they were vague. Chris clarified them. I don't see how these comments Arden was shilling for the FO.
It's a bit naive to assume the FO wanted Bassitt to provide clarification for themselves. If Shatkins is confident enough in their own evaluation skills they don't care what a non-superstar player's in depth evaluation of the organization is. Let's be real, they wanted Bassitt to provide "clarification" (walk back his initial comments) for the fans. Once you realize this you will also realize that Arden and Shi were meeting the definition of shill to a T.

Yeah, I mean, look, I think a lot of people, and I've heard this in private conversations, that a lot of people are sort of acknowledging a lot of hard truths about where the Blue Jays are as an organization this year, right? That a lot of this organization has come under the microscope, rightly so, based on where they were a few years ago and where they are now and what's happened with the window of opportunity.

The above is vague from Shi. It's been an awful year. Atkins has a bad offseason but even if he has a fantastic one, there are a lot of players who have had down years, Bassitt included. I would not be surprised there is some who aren't keen on Mattingly, Martinez, and John Schneider.

Here is Shi's expansion on the above comments which I didn't include in my original post:
This was a team that a few years ago was in a very, very enviable situation. And that a few years later, it finds itself in a very difficult spot with a farm system that isn't able to replenish the big league roster, having not integrated enough young players along the way to help turn over and smooth over some of the free agent departures that have either happened or are going to happen.
Shatkins not delivering on their promises of fixing the farm system that AA left in shambles, and waves of talent, is on them and them alone.

Mattingly, Martinez and John Schneider can all go too though. Pete Walker and Matt Hague are the gems of the coaching staff.
 

canucksfan

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It's a bit naive to assume the FO wanted Bassitt to provide clarification for themselves. If Shatkins is confident enough in their own evaluation skills they don't care what a non-superstar player's in depth evaluation of the organization is. Let's be real, they wanted Bassitt to provide "clarification" (walk back his initial comments) for the fans. Once you realize this you will also realize that Arden and Shi were meeting the definition of shill to a T.



Here is Shi's expansion on the above comments which I didn't include in my original post:

Shatkins not delivering on their promises of fixing the farm system that AA left in shambles, and waves of talent, is on them and them alone.

Mattingly, Martinez and John Schneider can all go too though. Pete Walker and Matt Hague are the gems of the coaching staff.
We’ll have to agree to disagree with the first part. I think Arden saw a lot of reaction on social media and asked Chris to clarify his comments and he did. I really doubt he was looking to help the FO.

The lack of a decent farm system has hurt the team especially on the pitching side of things.
 

tmlms13

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When Shatkins wouldn't even call up Votto for the Reds series, that put the nail in the coffin, they were never going to call him up so might as well make it official.

It's not quite Modano 1499 with Babcock but it's close.
 

jetsforever

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Sad about Votto, would have been super cool to see him play here and it got derailed immediately by a fluke injury
 

Blitzkrug

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Sad about Votto, would have been super cool to see him play here and it got derailed immediately by a fluke injury
Realistically i don't think he makes it even if healthy. Dude was bad last year and stayed bad.

Happens to the best of athletes. Some guys choose to continue on playing at a lower level league because they love the sport. Other guys like Votto only accept the highest level and when that door closes, so does their career. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.
When Shatkins wouldn't even call up Votto for the Reds series, that put the nail in the coffin, they were never going to call him up so might as well make it official.

It's not quite Modano 1499 with Babcock but it's close.
Absolutely not lmao. Babcock is a psychopath. Votto was given a chance to work his way back up but couldn't cut it. His stats in the minors were not good. The team gains nothing by bringing him up, Votto gains nothing because he knows it's a pity call up.

Screenshot 2024-08-21 211648.png


If you're putting up that type of stat line in A ball given what a guy like Votto has accomplished, you're cooked. He even admits it himself.

Blame the organization for the other 50 things they screwed up, but this isn't one of them.
 

hockeywiz542

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Thank you to my parents, Wendy and Joe, for giving me everything I needed to fulfill my dream of becoming a professional baseball player. Thank you to my brother, Tyler Votto, for throwing me wiffle balls for all those years (ha ha, you are the best. I had to write this.). To Warren and Nick for the years of hitting together as high schooler’s. The Etobicoke community for supporting me as a youth player. Oakville, Queensway, Kingsway, Bloordale, Thunderbirds, and Bob Smyth and the Etobicoke Rangers for raising me as a youth baseball player. Mark Capone is STILL better.

As a pro, Leon Roberts and Freddie Benavides were my guys. They made me who I was as a pro player. Thank you to them!

As a major league player, Dusty Baker and Scott Rolen taught me how to be a pro’s pro. My man Jay Bruce, can you run? can you hit? can you throw? Then go play. So many great teammates.

Toronto + Canada, I wanted to play in front of you. Sigh, I tried with all my heart to play for my people. I’m just not good anymore. Thank you for all the support during my attempt.

Cincinnati, I’ve only played for you. I love you.

Finally, to the MLB fans. You energized me with your cheers, I loved the boos, the trash talk, the moments where I broke a road cities moment, or was humbled on stage.

I’ll never forget, early in my career, my first time at Wrigley Field and the crowd standing and cheering toward my failure. I remember standing at the plate, smiling and thinking, this is my home. I belong here.

I was myself in this sport. I was able to be my best self. I played this sport with every last ounce of my body, heart, and mind.

Thank you for everything.

-Joey Votto

3h
 

TheMadHatTrick

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The Nemesis

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When Shatkins wouldn't even call up Votto for the Reds series, that put the nail in the coffin, they were never going to call him up so might as well make it official.

It's not quite Modano 1499 with Babcock but it's close.

There's a piece on The Athletic by Kaitlyn McGrath that notes how Votto said he wasn't interested in a charity or ceremonial call-up. He was going to work his way to the majors or bust.

Blame the front office for a lot of things, but not this.
 
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Discoverer

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There's a piece on The Athletic by Kaitlyn McGrath that notes how Votto said he wasn't interested in a charity or ceremonial call-up. He was going to work his way to the majors or bust.

Blame the front office for a lot of things, but not this.
Yeah, I would have been perfectly happy with a charity/ceremonial call-up, even to just get a couple AB in a cool situation (hometown team against the team he spent his career with) but I get why both the Jays and Votto wouldn't have been interested in that.

If Modano was playing in the AHL and had a goal and two assists or something in 30 games and the Wings chose not to call him up, I don't think many people would have had a problem with how that whole thing played out.
 

tmlfan98

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Again, for everyone in this thread who was so sure that the FO had nothing to do with Bassitt clarifying his comments, it sure seems like the FO followed up with Bassitt because his comments made them look bad:

BNS: It definitely catches the attention of people within the organization. I don't think it was Chris Bassitt's intention to light a flame under the Blue Jays organization here and make them look bad at all. But in some ways, it did make them look bad. To that extent, that's not ideal.

Arden: I've spoken to people with the organization in the last couple of days, just to ask, hey, how did this land with you? What was the fallout with you? They've said, yeah, we followed up with Chris.

BNS' words below sure sound like they are coming from Bassitt's bosses themselves if you were to just read this and I didn't say it was BNS saying it:

Arden: I think that the outcomes that the Blue Jays have had the last couple of years have been very frustrating. I'm sure that some of that frustration boils over when people ask him, hey, what went wrong? Why hasn't this worked out?

BNS: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, like, on the other hand, man, like, it's just rarely in any industry at any time, is it a great idea when you're speaking publicly about your bosses to go say, like, yeah, they didn't have a pivot. They didn't have a plan. And I know that I'm sure that wasn't his intention, but it's what he said.

This entire paragraph below just reeks of shilling from Arden. Only 12 people know the full extent of what happened in the offseason so no one outside those 12 people can criticize the offseason? This is textbook "cover my ass mode" by the way, whoever that person was who said they were one of the 12. Can't defend yourself with the results, so start spewing hypotheticals and what-ifs. But the fact that Arden said he agreed with this person is even more concerning, and again just reeks of shilling:

Just as the Bassitt comments have spurred a lot of conversations, like, externally, they've spurred a lot of conversations internally as well. And you and I are involved in some of those. I just talked to people around the ballpark. And I had somebody say to me yesterday, you know, there's only, like, 12 people on this earth who actually know the full encapsulation of what happened to us this offseason and how many things were actually in play and how many things weren't and how many trades were on the table and how far we got with certain free agents and how realistic it was that Shohei Ohtani would come here. Like, this is one of those 12 people who said that.

And look, like, the reality is, like, we don't know everything about the Blue Jays offseason. I can sit here and say they didn't do enough to address their offense. I think that much is clear. But I also, coming into the season, said, yeah, like, I think there's a way the Blue Jays could get into a wild card spot. So I'm also not going to sit here and say, I knew this was doomed. I told you all this was doomed. Of course this is what happened. Because that's not what I was saying coming in. I was saying, yeah, you know, if they get some things go right, like, this can definitely be a playoff team.

A lot of things went wrong instead. And clearly the Blue Jays should have done more to add power to their offense in the off season. But I also can't tell you everything that they tried to do in the off season. I know what their intention was. I don't know all of their actions. Like, we know some of it from having conversations and asking around, but we don't know all of it. There's plenty about this offseason that I don't know. So, I'm always kind of hesitant with just like, how convicted I am in saying, oh, the Blue Jays had this terrible offseason.

Luckily BNS briefly sees reason here and strongly disagrees with Arden's BS argument. Although it's hilariously out of touch with the fanbase for BNS to claim that fans were optimistic about the team before the season:

To me, I do feel confident in saying they had a bad offseason. They did. Like, to me, it's a fact. Now, that being said, I'm totally with you in saying that at the outset of this season, you can go back and listen to At The Letters, and you can find me saying that I thought they had a real shot to be a playoff team. Probably a wildcard team, I think, I would have said, just given the Yankees and Orioles. But I thought the Jays had a real shot, and we weren't alone in saying that. If you look at the entire media landscape, the entire baseball media landscape, look at the projections, which had the Blue Jays definitely as a fringe playoff team going into this season. So it was not, we were not alone in thinking that. I think that fans certainly had optimism about this team internally.

The players, of course, they believe that they would be able to do this. So it's a great point to say that it's not as though this was all foretold on Sportsnet.ca on March 15th that they were doomed. You know, that was not the way it worked. But at the same time, like looking at it now, I think that we don't need to know, and I have, I mean, I spent a lot of time and a lot of energy and had a lot of conversations reporting on the offseason to the extent that I possibly could last winter. So I think I have a pretty good idea of what went down to an extent. You're never gonna have a full picture, but end of the day, you don't have to be any sort of reporter or any sort of insider to know what happened, right?

We all know what happened. We all know what they actually did, and they can be judged on that. And what the job of an MLB front office is, is to come up with a plan and a vision and various contingencies and build the depth and adjust on the fly such that you can overcome the inevitable injuries, underperformances, and attrition that happens in the course of a baseball season. And the Jays just haven't done it.

Another instance of BNS' words sounding like they are coming from Bassitt's bosses themselves, but he at least admits that Shapiro, Atkins and John Schneider need to have thicker skin:

Arden: I'm going to take Chris at his word from what he told Shi and I that, you know, when he talked about the pivot, he just meant there was not a realistic pivot that would be as good as Ohtani. And when he talks about unfixable problems, it is that the Blue Jays suffered a whole host of injuries, had a season go awry that is resulting in everyone being a year older. All those things suck and all those things are outside of the Blue Jays control.

BNS: And look, I mean, part of the job description, because, you know, I stand by what I said earlier, and that you're rarely going to advance, you know, you're standing by, you know, openly criticizing your bosses, no matter how valid the criticism is. That's usually, you know, probably safest to keep that behind closed doors.

But hey, counter to that is this is major league baseball. And so part of the challenge for Ross Atkins or Mark Shapiro or John Schneider is they need to have a thick skin. They got to roll with this stuff.

And now my favourite part...what was this extremely specific unprompted denial from Arden here LOL?

Can I clarify one more thing? Just very quickly, and I shouldn't even do this.

We went and we sought out Chris Bassitt and talked to him for 45 minutes. Chris Bassitt did not contact us. Blue Jays PR did not contact us. Rogers PR, Mark Shapiro did not call me in the middle of the day and say, hey, you've got to go massage this thing and clean up this mess for me.

Arden also exposes himself here as an Atkins defender by calling Atkins a protagonist in the context of fans wanting him fired being a dominant storyline of the season. Let's all be real, Atkins is definitely an antagonist. Really hard to take Arden's defense of the offseason seriously after hearing this part:

BNS: Are they going to fire Ross Atkins? Like, that is a question people ask. Are they going to extend Vlad Jr.? Are they going to call up Joey Votto? I think those are, what are they going to do with the trade deadline? That was a big one. So those are kind of the big themes that have been ongoing this year.

Arden: Those have been the main protagonists of the Blue Jays season, Vladimir Guerrero Jr, Ross Atkins, and Joey Votto. And two of them don't play for the team.
 
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Blitzkrug

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Scott Servais getting fired in Seattle. He couldn’t quite get them over the hump the past few years.
He wasn't elite as a manager but it's not his fault his lineup would probably struggle in a teeball league.

On that note, the Mariners issues go just beyond their lineup. T-Mobile park has become hell on earth for hitters.


We already kinda had proof last year when they got Teoscar and he sucked. He complained the batter's eye was awful, everyone said he was making excuses and then suddenly he goes back to mashing the ball at an all-star level the moment he leaves town.

I'm not sure where i read it but there was another article to suggest the dampening effect T-Mobile has on hitters is somehow greater than the amplifying effect Coors has on offense. Which is absurd to think about it.

Hitter OPS against Seattle at T-Mobile park: 540
Hitter OPS against Seattle literally anywhere else in the majors: 720
 
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MS

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Nimmala is obviously a toolsy guy with a lot of power and upside but those K rates are terrifying.

Does anyone have any examples of guys who struck out 1/3 of the time in A ball and went on to be quality MLB hitters?

He wasn't elite as a manager but it's not his fault his lineup would probably struggle in a teeball league.

On that note, the Mariners issues go just beyond their lineup. T-Mobile park has become hell on earth for hitters.


We already kinda had proof last year when they got Teoscar and he sucked. He complained the batter's eye was awful, everyone said he was making excuses and then suddenly he goes back to mashing the ball at an all-star level the moment he leaves town.

I'm not sure where i read it but there was another article to suggest the dampening effect T-Mobile has on hitters is somehow greater than the amplifying effect Coors has on offense. Which is absurd to think about it.

Hitter OPS against Seattle at T-Mobile park: 540
Hitter OPS against Seattle literally anywhere else in the majors: 720

Yeah, it’s always been a pitchers park but it’s gotten statistically insane in the past couple years. Not sure if something has changed to amplify the results like this.
 

canucksfan

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Nimmala is obviously a toolsy guy with a lot of power and upside but those K rates are terrifying.

Does anyone have any examples of guys who struck out 1/3 of the time in A ball and went on to be quality MLB hitters?



Yeah, it’s always been a pitchers park but it’s gotten statistically insane in the past couple years. Not sure if something has changed to amplify the results like this.
Nimmala has cut his K rate down to 26% in August. He needs to walk more but he's still young. The tools are intriguing. It's interesting because he was struggling a lot and then they put him on the developmental list and he came back strong.

Tucker Toman on the other other hand, was put on the developmental list and he has been terrible since. The pick looked promising but he's been awful.
 
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