Blue Jays Discussion: 2024 Season (better title pending or maybe not ... )

[MK78]

Yeah the Jays bullpen has completely cratered. Injuries and mediocre to brutal performance by guys that were supposed to be solid...

Only guy that was solid for almost the entire time was Garcia, and even he got tagged a little before his injury.

 

[Discoverer]

With Horwitz added, there's reason to have faith the offense could turn it around. Vlad, Horwitz, and Schneider are good. Turner seems to have it together again, Bo shouldn't be out too long. IKF and Varsho have been solid as secondary sources of offense. Good signs, at least.

Of course, that assumes those guys are actually used regularly and they don't have Springer hitting 5th with Kiermaier in CF every day. The pitching needs to get their shit together, too, and they've already dug themselves a big hole to get out of. Ugh.

With Schneider and Horwitz and a big group of under-the-radar guys coming up behind them, I at least feel confident they can retool on the fly.

 

[Mike Jones]

So now the Jays are 0-4 since Vladdy's haircut.

Nice goin' kid.

 

[EpochLink]

Jays social media lmao, they should take this down

 

[Anthrax442]

Maybe its a blessing that Orelvis don't participate in this embarrassing season.

 

[647Hockey]

Swanson had a brutal outing. ERA up to 16+

Jays traded Teoscar whose a reliable slugger for a reliever which can be a dime a dozen as even bad teams have some decent relievers. Swanson isnt even a multipurpose long reliever who can do a bit of everything like Richards. Swanson is a 1 inning per outing guy.

Unbelievable trade.

That's be like a team in the NHL trading a reliable 30g-30a-60pt player for a third line checker who gets 25 pts.

 

[Discoverer]

Jays traded Teoscar whose a reliable slugger for a reliever which can be a dime a dozen as even bad teams have some decent relievers. Swanson isnt even a multipurpose long reliever who can do a bit of everything like Richards. Swanson is a 1 inning per outing guy.

Unbelievable trade.

That's be like a team in the NHL trading a reliable 30g-30a-60pt player for a third line checker who gets 25 pts.

Teoscar was bad last year and then would have been a free agent. Swanson was dominant last year. They also got a good prospect in the trade.

So when that reliable 60 point guy drops to 45 points then hits free agency and your 25-point checker has a 40-point career year and you also got a solid prospect in return, you should be happy with the trade.

The Jays lost nothing by trading away Teoscar.

 

[647Hockey]

Teoscar was bad last year and then would have been a free agent. Swanson was dominant last year. They also got a good prospect in the trade.

No one should care about trading away Teoscar.

Teoscar has been consistently good on the Jays and since he left.

 

[Discoverer]

Teoscar has been consistently good on the Jays and since he left.

He had the exact same OPS as Kiermaier last year. He was NOT good. His numbers have rebounded to 2022 levels this year in LA, but he was a free agent so 2024 wasn't part of the trade.

The Jays traded 2023 Teoscar for Swanson and Macko and then used the financial savings on Kiermaier (or Belt, depending who you think of as Teoscar's replacement last year).

Teoscar for Swanson is about even. Macko is a bonus for the Jays. Reallocating Teoscar's salary to players who were better than Teoscar last year makes it a very obvious win.

 

[trellaine201]

Teo was a bum in the OF too.

 

[Rude Dog]

Shatkins still here? I will keep checking back til they are all fired

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Agreed 100%, except I would have to be confident in who was being brought in to make these trades and for me that's not Atkins.

 

[Discoverer]

View attachment 886118

Agreed 100%, except I would have to be confident in who was being brought in to make these trades and for me that's not Atkins.

"Guys like Horwitz, Barger, Schneider might be interesting to see develop, but it's not great that they're the system's too prospects."

The system isn't exactly bursting with top talent, but that part just isn't close to true. Fangraphs has Barger 4th and Horwitz 18th, while Schneider wasn't even included in last year's top 41 before graduating. MLB Pipeline has Barger 6th, and last year Horwitz was 18th and Schneider was 28th.

The fact that these aren't the top guys makes me feel like a retool is more likely. Their success so far is starting to suggest a pattern of under-the-radar prospects putting up huge minor league numbers and transitioning well to the majors. Meanwhile, you still have Orelvis (ugh), Jimenez, Roden, Palmegiani, and others who fit that mold. Maybe Horwitz and Schneider are just flukes, but I guess we'll see.

 

[hoglund]

This has to be the most disappointing, miserable season in franchise history.

There have been worse years 1977 for example where they finished 54- 107, but they were an expansion team and maybe that was expected. The 2019 team was the most disappointing for me where they finished 69-95 and that's when Vladdy debuted and there was a lot of hype and expectations to finish well.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

"Guys like Horwitz, Barger, Schneider might be interesting to see develop, but it's not great that they're the system's too prospects."

The system isn't exactly bursting with top talent, but that part just isn't close to true. Fangraphs has Barger 4th and Horwitz 18th, while Schneider wasn't even included in last year's top 41 before graduating. MLB Pipeline has Barger 6th, and last year Horwitz was 18th and Schneider was 28th.

The fact that these aren't the top guys makes me feel like a retool is more likely. Their success so far is starting to suggest a pattern of under-the-radar prospects putting up huge minor league numbers and transitioning well to the majors. Meanwhile, you still have Orelvis (ugh), Jimenez, Roden, Palmegiani, and others who fit that mold. Maybe Horwitz and Schneider are just flukes, but I guess we'll see.

If I'm being charitable I don't think he means they're literally the top "ranked" prospects since he's talking about the team's immediate ability to retool vs rebuild. A retool would require guys who are close to contributing, which is what al those guys listed have in common.

I agree that a retool is more likely because of this front office, but not because I think it's the best decision. You mention a pattern of under-the-radar prospects transitioning well to the majors, but this is the same front office that doesn't even believe in them enough to play them until it's reached the point of desperation. Horowitz has been raking in Buffalo for months and we only now call him up and give him a chance with half the season gone. Schneider came up raking last year, but you never knew day in day out whether he was going to even be in the lineup. The same was even true this year until recently.

The problem with a retool is that there is no clear pathway to contention given that the team is close to maxed out in payroll, our best players are either on the decline or underperforming, the system isn't particularly deep or top-heavy, and with the exception of Jimenez, Macko, and Horowitz, pretty much all of our best prospects are either injured, suspended, or have taken a step back.

You're either selling winning or you're selling hope, and right now I don't see a lot of either.

 

[Dr Pepper]

If I'm being charitable I don't think he means they're literally the top "ranked" prospects since he's talking about the team's immediate ability to retool vs rebuild. A retool would require guys who are close to contributing, which is what al those guys listed have in common.

I agree that a retool is more likely because of this front office, but not because I think it's the best decision. You mention a pattern of under-the-radar prospects transitioning well to the majors, but this is the same front office that doesn't even believe in them enough to play them until it's reached the point of desperation. Horowitz has been raking in Buffalo for months and we only now call him up and give him a chance with half the season gone. Schneider came up raking last year, but you never knew day in day out whether he was going to even be in the lineup. The same was even true this year until recently.

The problem with a retool is that there is no clear pathway to contention given that the team is close to maxed out in payroll, our best players are either on the decline or underperforming, the system isn't particularly deep or top-heavy, and with the exception of Jimenez, Macko, and Horowitz, pretty much all of our best prospects are either injured, suspended, or have taken a step back.

You're either selling winning or you're selling hope, and right now I don't see a lot of either.

Since there's been very little winning as of late, most of the talk from the Jays brass was about the latter, like "trust us it's gonna get better", but at this point I think even the most dyed-in-the-wool Jays fans have had enough of Atkins and Shapiro running the team into the ground.

I'm hoping for something, anything, to happen either today or over the coming days that gives us hope that change is on the horizon. Cut loose one or two coaches, perhaps. Mix things up.

 

[rboomercat90]

Well this season has gone off the rails…

This season went off the rails last November when Shapiro didn’t fire Atkins.

 

[Discoverer]

Since there's been very little winning as of late, most of the talk from the Jays brass was about the latter, like "trust us it's gonna get better", but at this point I think even the most dyed-in-the-wool Jays fans have had enough of Atkins and Shapiro running the team into the ground.

I'm hoping for something, anything, to happen either today or over the coming days that gives us hope that change is on the horizon. Cut loose one or two coaches, perhaps. Mix things up.

They need to fire Mattingly, at the very least. That add has turned out to be a huge disaster.

 

[Dr Pepper]

This season went off the rails last November when Shapiro didn’t fire Atkins.

I'm still not sure he ever will......the two have worked together for what, twenty years now? They're a package deal, it's likely going to have to take someone higher up with Rogers to remove both of them.

That said, John Schneider must be feeling some thin ice under his feet. Can't be much longer now.

They need to fire Mattingly, at the very least. That add has turned out to be a huge disaster.

Definitely an underwhelming result. Silly me, thinking he'd be a net asset for the team's offense.

Not so much, it turned out.

 

[Discoverer]

I'm still not sure he ever will......the two have worked together for what, twenty years now? They're a package deal, it's likely going to have to take someone higher up with Rogers to remove both of them.

That said, John Schneider must be feeling some thin ice under his feet. Can't be much longer now.



Definitely an underwhelming result. Silly me, thinking he'd be a net asset for the team's offense.

Not so much, it turned out.

Yeah, I think most of us liked adding Mattingly at the time, but holy shit... pretty much everyone has regressed significantly since he got here.

I don't think Shapiro is going anywhere. I think he's done pretty much everything ownership wanted him to do since he's responsible for the renovations. But I do think Atkins is gone at the end of the season (I doubt they fire the GM midseason).

 

[canucksfan]

They need to fire Mattingly, at the very least. That add has turned out to be a huge disaster.

At a minimum, a change in hitting coaches should have happened last offseason. I am still stunned that nothing has happened yet.

The team is a bottom-five team in offense and the talent is much better.

 

[Bjindaho]

I've completely given up on this season.

I was willing to give them a chance, but at this point, they should fire everyone from Shapiro down.

 

[shaner8989]

Horowitz is amazing. I’m sure he will be sitting today now. Loser organization

 

[Discoverer]

At a minimum, a change in hitting coaches should have happened last offseason. I am still stunned that nothing has happened yet.

The team is a bottom-five team in offense and the talent is much better.

The one change they did make is promoting Mattingly to Offensive Coordinator (which, I'm not 100% sure, but sounds like he would be the hitting coaches' boss).

I'm torn on Martinez because he's been here for a lot of positives (one of the top offenses in baseball from 2020-2022, Vladdy's big breakout, the emergence of Teoscar, Gurriel, Jansen, Semien, etc.) so there's some track record of success with him.

Mattingly joined as a bench coach with the expectation that he would help the offense. The team immediately took a step back. They promoted him to Offensive Coordinator and have since taken an even bigger step back. Everything he was brought in for has gotten worse since he got here. Hell, there was talk about helping Vladdy get better at first and even that's moved in the wrong direction.

 

[phillipmike]

I think we need a new title to the thread. No efforts or a lackluster one towards the title has a direct impact on he Jays season!