Speculation: 2024 Offseason Talk

[eartotheground]

i was such a smith fan. was sad to see him go.

 

[Zapp]

@Dallasman

 

[FirstRowUpperDeck]

"Whatever" doesn't strike me as MK88 having a rebuttal.

We've made the PO's 7 or 11 Jim Nill years. 4th in PO wins since he got here. As Hitch said, you are what your record says you are.

I would also like to see MK88 detail how he would have done things differently, in a realistic manner. Go back and see what realistically was available. The only one that sticks true is Guri over Barkov and a few others.

I don't recall the scouting history, and I think he turned it over almost as much as the on-ice team when he wasn't getting the results.......could be wrong on that one.

I still think Nill has earned our trust and respect. 100% unconditionally? No, and a bit of criticism is always helpful. Perhaps our complaining about not drafting small guys led to Stankhoven being drafted, or at least a change in philosophy put in place that allowed them to consider him when he fell to round 2. But there is a difference between that and MK88's constant value judgments that seem to minimize anything good but maximize the bad moves. That is just over the top.

 

[Troy McClure]

His body of work is all over the place. I would say since 21 (with the exception of the Ryan Suter debacle, because everyone with a brain knew he would suck, and the Khudobin shit) He's been largely fine. And sure that should buy him some faith as a fan, but to just write off all his failures from the preceding seasons is crazy.
You can find a laundry list of clear missteps that nobody should have complete faith in him, especially since he's somehow got to fill out half the d-core and has been unwilling to open space to actually do so efficiently.

I want to say I agree with all of this except that I put a more positive spin on his overall record. I downplay a few of his missteps (hiring Hitch was a Gaglardi move, for example -- I'm also not sure the Benn contract was his call), and I also grade him on a bit of a curve given Gaglardi will never allow the Stars to consider any kind of big rebuild.

I just compare Nill to most GMs who I think do a worse job or haven't done as good of a job of retooling on the fly.

But yeah, Nill has his misses. He's struggled with pretty much every goalie trade and signing he's ever made. The Lundkvist trade was a disaster. He hung onto a couple of young guys too long for no good reason (Nichushkin and Honka). Even so, the hits outweigh the misses. The team being where it has been the past couple of years is a result of Nill.

 

[Zrhutch]

Let’s go get a guy

 

[M88K]

I want to say I agree with all of this except that I put a more positive spin on his overall record. I downplay a few of his missteps (hiring Hitch was a Gaglardi move, for example -- I'm also not sure the Benn contract was his call), and I also grade him on a bit of a curve given Gaglardi will never allow the Stars to consider any kind of big rebuild.

I just compare Nill to most GMs who I think do a worse job or haven't done as good of a job of retooling on the fly.

But yeah, Nill has his misses. He's struggled with pretty much every goalie trade and signing he's ever made. The Lundkvist trade was a disaster. He hung onto a couple of young guys too long for no good reason (Nichushkin and Honka). Even so, the hits outweigh the misses. The team being where it has been the past couple of years is a result of Nill.

That's fair, I don't know that any GM wouldn't have signed Benns contract anyway. May not have liked it from day 1 but it was always an inevitable, same could be said of Seguin. It's one of those you know it's going to suck but you're stuck with it kind of thing.

 

[Frozen Failure]

Can't call the Lundkvist trade a disaster for a few more years until the guys who could have been picked with that pick start hitting the NHL en masse. Got a more known asset than a complete unknown.

But you're right, Nill's done some very non-ruthless moves that have kind of bit back. There were a couple years of complete tomfoolery by the scouts, but I think they've worked out some consistency even with the general lack of picks. But, put in a corner by random career damaging injuries to the guys you signed to big contracts. Those are the things that happen when it's a business.

 

[ElGuapo]

I'd put money on the Stars falling out of the POs entirely in 2020. They were trending that way hard.

to go a run sometimes all it takes is luck.

Exactly. Even non-playoff teams have a good chance if you actually put them into the bracket. People want this league to be something it's not. It's a crapshoot.

 

[M88K]

Can't call the Lundkvist trade a disaster for a few more years until the guys who could have been picked with that pick start hitting the NHL en masse. Got a more known asset than a complete unknown.

But you're right, Nill's done some very non-ruthless moves that have kind of bit back. There were a couple years of complete tomfoolery by the scouts, but I think they've worked out some consistency even with the general lack of picks. But, put in a corner by random career damaging injuries to the guys you signed to big contracts. Those are the things that happen when it's a business.

No, that one was a disaster from day 1 too.
You don't trade 1st (+) for prospects who have attitude issue and are demanding a trade out of town. Especially when he amounted to as little in NY as he did.
It's not even the potential prospect, it's the potential use of that pick in a future trade (tdl pickup for instance) that was wasted on a bad gamble. then we added onto it.
You don't get into bidding wars for bad prospects with poorly ran franchises like Columbus, there's a reason they're always trash.

 

[joshik]

No, that one was a disaster from day 1 too.
You don't trade 1st (+) for prospects who have attitude issue and are demanding a trade out of town. Especially when he amounted to as little in NY as he did.
It's not even the potential prospect, it's the potential use of that pick in a future trade (tdl pickup for instance) that was wasted on a bad gamble. then we added onto it.
You don't get into bidding wars for bad prospects with poorly ran franchises like Columbus, there's a reason they're always trash.

Its funny how even Fox havent cost 1st rounder

 

[Frozen Failure]

I'd demand a trade off a team when the two guys ahead on the RHD depth chart of me are Adam Fox and Jacob Trouba and the guy next to me has more bottom pair potential because he's got 3 inches and a dozen cheeseburgers on me (Schneider).

There was no opportunity, and his only option is to force a trade because he's an RFA... and those kinds of trades happen all of the time. We know he's clearly NHL capable because he isn't out there shitting the bed for 60+ regular season game, but he's not taken that next step, and Nill always has to have some young guy who is trying to make it.

Its funny how even Fox havent cost 1st rounder

Well, Fox probably didn't want to sign in Calgary (combo of depth chart and Canada) and he sure as shit didn't see Carolina as a place he wanted to be (way down the depth chart). So he forced their hand and NYR said "f*** yeah give us that guy" and boom look at him now. He demanded NHL time and NYR gave it to him. Both Calgary and Carolina got things out of those trades, and Adam Fox got things too...

We'll see what Nill does and if they give us some insight into the whole Nils Saga.

 

[joshik]

I'd demand a trade off a team when the two guys ahead on the RHD depth chart of me are Adam Fox and Jacob Trouba and the guy next to me has more bottom pair potential because he's got 3 inches and a dozen cheeseburgers on me (Schneider).

There was no opportunity, and his only option is to force a trade because he's an RFA... and those kinds of trades happen all of the time. We know he's clearly NHL capable because he isn't out there shitting the bed for 60+ regular season game, but he's not taken that next step, and Nill always has to have some young guy who is trying to make it.



Well, Fox probably didn't want to sign in Calgary (combo of depth chart and Canada) and he sure as shit didn't see Carolina as a place he wanted to be (way down the depth chart). So he forced their hand and NYR said "f*** yeah give us that guy" and boom look at him now. He demanded NHL time and NYR gave it to him. Both Calgary and Carolina got things out of those trades, and Adam Fox got things too...

We'll see what Nill does and if they give us some insight into the whole Nils Saga.

Carolina got miximaly screwed they got nothing for a top 5 D in whole nhl. We should have drag the price lower when nyr was for sure gettiong rid of nils. Only thing I can see is there was big demand (right handed offensive d is what every team wants) so we kinda rushed.

 

[M88K]

Carolina got miximaly screwed they got nothing for a top 5 D in whole nhl. We should have drag the price lower when nyr was for sure gettiong rid of nils. Only thing I can see is there was big demand (right handed offensive d is what every team wants) so we kinda rushed.

We outbid Columbus for Nils.
Fox wasn't going to sign anywhere but NY. it's a different situation.
Nils was going to hold out over playing in the AHL. Somehow goes for a first.
Fox just wasn't going to sign with anyone but NYR, let his rights expire becoming a UFA. So it was a get something instead of nothing.

the Nils trade was give a ton for nothing

 

[Frozen Failure]

I would agree that a young, inexpensive NHL ready RHD commands a little more of a premium. I would think the value of two consecutive year #40s is about the same price as a #29 pick, though, and potentially more.

I don't think calling it a disaster is right yet, but a questionable move is probably more accurate.

A disaster is trading for Jonathan Huberdeau.

 

[joshik]

I would agree that a young, inexpensive NHL ready RHD commands a little more of a premium. I would think the value of two consecutive year #40s is about the same price as a #29 pick, though, and potentially more.

I don't think calling it a disaster is right yet, but a questionable move is probably more accurate.

A disaster is trading for Jonathan Huberdeau.

We would have give more if nils played more games or got more points i dont remember now. Also Fox is amazing players but that was really a prick menatlity by him.

 

[joshik]

Late first isnt that value thats true. You would have most likely got something similiar to nils with like 10% chance of actually becoming great player. But i prefer grow our draft pick over even if it wouldnt be succesful.

 

[M88K]

I would agree that a young, inexpensive NHL ready RHD commands a little more of a premium. I would think the value of two consecutive year #40s is about the same price as a #29 pick, though, and potentially more.

I don't think calling it a disaster is right yet, but a questionable move is probably more accurate.

A disaster is trading for Jonathan Huberdeau.

It worked out that it was #29, when they traded it, the only protection on it was top 10.
It could have ended up (Long term injuries to Oettinger/Miro) 11th, plus they added a 4th with the potential to turn into a 3rd.
It would have been one thing to make the trade at the draft knowing it was pick 29, and a 4th. it still would have been bad value, but the fact that we threw away our best asset for supplementing the roster (at the tdl), before having any idea of where the pick ended up.

Realistically you don't expect that Stars roster to miss the PO going into the season so maybe you're saying we're fine with #16 -#32 but even still Nils isn't the player worth taking that gamble on.
to Nils credit he has better reasons to be pissed here than in NY and so far nothing has came of it, so credit to him.

Late first isnt that value thats true. You would have most likely got something similiar to nils with like 10% chance of actually becoming great player. But i prefer grow our draft pick over even if it wouldnt be succesful.

I mean there's so many different scenarios outside of keeping it for the draft, they could have gotten better asset for the PO run at the deadline(like a d-man) and maybe beat Vegas. They could have had an asset in the franchise for 4yrs instead of player who's likely gone in 2 for peanuts.

 

[Frozen Failure]

It was a 4th in 2025 which they don't want to become a third. Watch Nils have an absolute breakout year.

 

[M88K]

It was a 4th in 2025 which they don't want to become a third. Watch Nils have an absolute breakout year.

the conditions are already failed. It is set in stone as the 4th now

 

[joshik]

It was a 4th in 2025 which they don't want to become a third. Watch Nils have an absolute breakout year.

I dont want to jinx it but Honka looked way better to me (in terms of offensive potential) in his short time and we know how that ended up (oh god how much i loved Honka he was so skilled). Like Nils is total disaster in own zone, cant keep the puck, makes the worst plays but there is a big offensive potential for sure.

 

[starsfan86]

I dont want to jinx it but Honka looked way better to me in his short time and we know how that ended up (oh god how much i loved Honka he was so skilled). Like Nils is total disaster in own zone, cant keep the puck, makes the worst plays but there is a big offensive potential for sure.

I disagree. Nils looks way better defensively and stronger than Honka.

 

[M88K]

I dont want to jinx it but Honka looked way better to me in his short time and we know how that ended up (oh god how much i loved Honka he was so skilled). Like Nils is total disaster in own zone, cant keep the puck, makes the worst plays but there is a big offensive potential for sure.

I think you're misremembering some 3on3 Honka play. He never looked good outside of a few 3on3 shifts.
Nils looks better than Honka ever did, but he looks like a career tweener

 

[Frozen Failure]

the conditions are already failed. It is set in stone as the 4th now

Yes, sorry, the conditions...

— 2025 fourth (becomes 2025 third if Lundkvist has 55 total points in the next two seasons)

Don't should be didn't, and now it is a fourth. Which is why I expect Nils to have the leash off a bit more.

 

[joshik]

I think you're misremembering some 3on3 Honka play. He never looked good outside of a few 3on3 shifts.
Nils looks better than Honka ever did, but he looks like a career tweener

Its definitely the most memorable and maybe im little biased because i remember mostly the bad plays nils made but the one rush in playoffs and then he allowed goal on us next shift.

I disagree. Nils looks way better defensively and stronger than Honka.

I meant it in offensive flashes only there was nothing about Honka on defense. Like in this time you wont be ever called up if you are as bad as Honka in own zone. It was different time.

 

[Troy McClure]

Yes, sorry, the conditions...

— 2025 fourth (becomes 2025 third if Lundkvist has 55 total points in the next two seasons)

Don't should be didn't, and now it is a fourth. Which is why I expect Nils to have the leash off a bit more.

I don't think the pick condition had anything at all to do with how Lundkvist was coached or how played. Jim Nill would have loved to see the condition met because then it would have meant he got the player he wanted.

Nill made the trade to get an every-game player two seasons ago. It's why they went into the past two seasons giving Lundkvist a job hoping he'd take it and solve a problem on the blue line. Nill didn't want a guy who needed several seasons to find his legs.

I also don't buy the way you're talking about his time with the Rangers. There was a spot for him to win, but he couldn't beat out a guy two years younger than him. This trend has continued to Dallas where he has been passed on the depth chart by younger guys in Harley and Bichsel.

This was a bust of a trade. It delivered no immediate help, and there's not even a lot of hope of it delivering future help.

Its definitely the most memorable and maybe im little biased because i remember mostly the bad plays nils made but the one rush in playoffs and then he allowed goal on us next shift.


I meant it in offensive flashes only there was nothing about Honka on defense. Like in this time you wont be ever called up if you are as bad as Honka in own zone. It was different time.

Honka didn't even really deliver offensive flashes. He put up offense at a Craig Ludwig pace. He had nothing. I don't think Lundkvist is very good, but he's at least good enough to be an NHL player on a bad team. Honka was never even that.