HF Habs: 2024 NHL Draft Thread

[Ozmodiar]

It’s funny to bring up the Lightning as an example of a team with small forwards that won the Cup. Yeah they kept getting their asses handed to them in the playoffs until they gave up lots of assets to finally get size.

What you’re saying is that they can add Catton to the mix as long as they surround him with size.

The 2020 lightning won a Cup with a top 6 where only 3/6 were at least 6”. None were 200+ pounds.

The Habs with Catton would have a much bigger top 6 than TBL had.

Their recipe worked:
- add talent first
- surround talent as needed (size, role players, depth)

 

[McGuires Corndog]

What you’re saying is that they can add Catton to the mix as long as they surround him with size.

The 2020 lightning won a Cup with a top 6 where only 3/6 were at least 6”. None were 200+ pounds.

The Habs with Catton would have a much bigger top 6 than TBL had.

Their recipe worked:
- add talent first
- surround talent as needed (size, role players, depth)

Suzuki is built like Crosby physically, yeah he’s 5’11” but he’s built like a oak tree.

Slaf is physical specimen. Dach is a massive centre man. Newhook is is also kind of build like Suzuki. Roy is also a thick boy.

Let’s say hypothetically they draft Catton:

Catton-Suzuki-Slafkovsky
Caufield-Dach-Roy

More than big enough, definitely talented enough.

 

[Genghis Keon]

For those that are complaining about Catton's size, particularly his weight, let's see where he's at during the NHL Combine to start. Weight can definitely be put on and Catton clearly is still in his "boy" body. These kids are changing so much at these ages, some change faster than others. I remember at 16 years old graduating from High School and I looked like a little boy compared to some of these other guys, especially the Italians who already had beards .

Anyways, just for fun, check out Nick Suzuki and Robert Thomas' heights and weights at the NHL Combine in 2017:

• Nick Suzuki: 5-foot-11, 183.2 pounds
• Robert Thomas: 5-foot-11.5, 192.5 pounds

And Now:

• Nick Suzuki: 5-foot-11, 212 pounds
• Robert Thomas: 6-foot, 218 pounds

Some more:

William Nylander went from 5'11 169 at the 2014 combine to a listed 6'0 202.

David Pastrnak went from 6'0 167 at the 2014 combine to a listed 6'0 196.

Peter Forsberg was listed at 5'11 167 on his rookie card and ended up a listed 6'0 205.

Like you said, we don't even have Catton's actual measurements yet, much less what he'll end up as.

As for his playoff production, he led his team with 4 points in 4 games. They only scored 9 times, so he factored in on 44.4% of their scoring. They were outscored 20 to 9 in the 4 games and Catton was a +2. Say what you want about how he looked as a draft year player on an over matched team, but statistically he actually more than held his own when you look at the context.

 

[jaffy27]

What you’re saying is that they can add Catton to the mix as long as they surround him with size.

The 2020 lightning won a Cup with a top 6 where only 3/6 were at least 6”. None were 200+ pounds.

The Habs with Catton would have a much bigger top 6 than TBL had.

Their recipe worked:
- add talent first
- surround talent as needed (size, role players, depth)

Tampa also has 5 potential HOF in Point, Hedman, Stamkos, Kucherov and Vasilekski

 

[Mrb1p]

Tampa also has 5 potential HOF in Point, Hedman, Stamkos, Kucherov and Vasilekski

Theres no scenario in which Point is considered for the HHOF. Hopefully we have at least one by 2034.

 

[jaffy27]

Theres no scenario in which Point is considered for the HHOF. Hopefully we have at least one by 2034.

He’s gonna finish with over 1000 games played and 1000pts+ plus Stanley Cup champ who played a pivotal role and 40, 50 goal seasons….

My guess is yes

 

[Ozmodiar]

Tampa also has 5 potential HOF in Point, Hedman, Stamkos, Kucherov and Vasilekski

And none are forwards over 200 pounds (even if stamkos was available. He wasn’t).

Another good argument that talent should be the priority, tho. Thanks.

 

[le_sean]

What you’re saying is that they can add Catton to the mix as long as they surround him with size.

The 2020 lightning won a Cup with a top 6 where only 3/6 were at least 6”. None were 200+ pounds.

The Habs with Catton would have a much bigger top 6 than TBL had.

Their recipe worked:
- add talent first
- surround talent as needed (size, role players, depth)

Sure. We only have to find Kucherov, Vasilevskiy, Hedman first 3 HOFs, no big deal.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Different players. Demidov's skill level puts him neck and neck with Celebrini in terms of pure talent and is physically stronger than Catton especially in the lower body. Helenius plays a much better all around game than Catton. Like I said earlier, Catton's playoff didn't put any of his question marks to rest.

If Habs are picking 6th and Celebrini, Demidov, Lindstrom are all gone...I wouldn't be surprised if they go with a Dman. Iggy's a nice story and Helenius is having an amazing season in a strong men's league but I'm not sure if they'll pass up on a stud D for them (or for Catton, Eiserman) if the remaining forwards are all in a lower tier on their draft list than a Dman who may still be available at #6. I think you'll see them try to improve their forward situation through trades before passing on a player they have in a higher tier on their draft list which involved thousands of hours of scouting, interviews/meeting, due diligence and internal debating. One thing about this HuGo brass is they are very big picture oriented and not reactive.

Again, everything has to do with who's available when we pick. I think there will be better options than Catton at #6-8.

I have never once whined about us picking Reinbacher over Michkov.

Okay but if we are projecting players, just because Demidov is physically stronger now doesn't mean that he always will be or that Catton can't. That's a simple projection we can't make - now the Habs have their physio staff and can do some of their measurements, etc. and determine if they believe he has the physical capacity to get a certain level of strength in his lower body. But we aren't drafting Catton or Demidov to play today, there's plenty of room for those guys to grow physically and figure it out.

I would be massively surprised if they go with a D man; every message from the organization is that getting a forward with their pick is their hope and their priority. I can still see them being more intrigued to go with a Catton or Iginla over the defenseman available because the left side is stacked and the right side is nicely insulated - there's no way Levshunov is on the board and the option on the right side is Parekh which is not at all what they would need or want to add on the right side.

All my point is that the arguments against Catton are just silly arguments because people don't want that particular prospect. Just say you don't think Catton's skill level is high enough to adjust for his size. Not one person here would have declined to pick Bedard at 5'9" last year and felt it was an issue. So let's not strawman shit and go around in circles on falsehoods like you can't have another 5'11" forward in the top 6.

 

[The Last Red]

Who said that.

The top 6 of the Pens in 1617 had plenty of sub 6.0 players in their top 6....same with the Lightning.

Talent is key and Catton has more talent than any forward on this draft except Celebrini and Demidov..

And none are forwards over 200 pounds (even if stamkos was available. He wasn’t).

Another good argument that talent should be the priority, tho. Thanks.

I’m going to assume that all of the projected top 15 are very talented, even more so in the top 10, so if you’re drafting there, as we will, a very talented player with some size is better than one without, unless you’re talking about Bedard or someone of that ilk, which Catton isn’t. There are better options than him at 6-9.

 

[TheBuriedHab]

Favorite thing about Tij is how strong he is on the puck. Multiple times I've seen this guy just lean on his stick and come off the boards vs 2 guys with the puck.

He's so heavy on the puck and real good along the wall. Would be a great player to have next to Dach if we keep Slaf on the first. We could really start to build a good strong/skilled top 6.

 

[ginomini]

The thing that annoys me the most with the size argument is that it assumes that the next big player will be a good one.

Even if you believe that a cup winning team has no player under 6-foot, if you project the small guy to have an impact on the level of a Keller/Jarvis/Caufield/etc. and the next big guy is Lawson Crouse, you draft the small guy 10/10.

Arguments should be based on the available players not on some abstract imaginary perfect conditions. And the truth about this draft is that the only "big" guy available in the top 10 is Lindstrom.

If Lindstrom is gone, the size argument goes out of the window because none of the other have size as an advantage.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Suzuki is built like Crosby physically, yeah he’s 5’11” but he’s built like a oak tree.

Slaf is physical specimen. Dach is a massive centre man. Newhook is is also kind of build like Suzuki. Roy is also a thick boy.

Let’s say hypothetically they draft Catton:

Catton-Suzuki-Slafkovsky
Caufield-Dach-Roy

More than big enough, definitely talented enough.

That’s an average of 200 pounds, without Catton gaining any weight.

2020 lightning cup win top 6 averaged around 187 lbs.

 

[Schooner Guy]

All my point is that the arguments against Catton are just silly arguments because people don't want that particular prospect. Just say you don't think Catton's skill level is high enough to adjust for his size. Not one person here would have declined to pick Bedard at 5'9" last year and felt it was an issue. So let's not strawman shit and go around in circles on falsehoods like you can't have another 5'11" forward in the top 6.

I'm not hung up on Catton's size. I'm hung up on the combination of his size, lack of strength, will to engage physically and poor defensive play vs players who will be available when we pick. This wasn't an issue with Bedard, Benson, Cooley and it's not an issue with Helenius. As I have mentioned countless times, there are other players I like better in the 6-8 range. For the record, I like Catton better than Eiserman.

As far as the organization's message goes, getting a forward is the priority but they're not going to reach if a Dman is sitting there who they deem to be in a higher tier than remaining forwards. That would be extremely shortsighted and this brass is playing the long game. They'll just trade for a forward who fits with their timeline.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Sure. We only have to find Kucherov, Vasilevskiy, Hedman first 3 HOFs, no big deal.

Your original point was that these 3 (and others) weren’t good enough until they added more size.

Now it swings back to - “look at that HOF talent”. lol

So, we’re in agreement. Talent is the top priority.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

Your original point was that these 3 (and others) weren’t good enough until they added more size.

Now it swings back to - “look at that HOF talent”. lol

So, we’re in agreement. Talent is the top priority.

Who’s to say Catton may not be a HOF talent? Anyone saying Kucherov was a HOF talent in his draft year would get laughed out of the room.

These are just kids. Their journey is just beginning and no one has a Crystal Ball (besides Huet ) .

 

[Kent Nilsson]

Theres no scenario in which Point is considered for the HHOF. Hopefully we have at least one by 2034.

He just turned 28 and is already more in the “starting to build a case” than “never will be considered” category. With the TB cast he should easily get to 500 goals and 1000 points and he’s a playoffs legend already.

 

[McGees]

Some more:

William Nylander went from 5'11 169 at the 2014 combine to a listed 6'0 202.

Ya but for Nylander, all the weight is in his giant head.

 

[jaffy27]

Your original point was that these 3 (and others) weren’t good enough until they added more size.

Now it swings back to - “look at that HOF talent”. lol

So, we’re in agreement. Talent is the top priority.

Iginla is just as talented without gambling on the frailty…..

Who we draft top 6 doesn’t need to be 6’3, he just needs to be talented, combative, and give us hope they can survive 4 rounds of playoffs.

Maybe Catton can eventually, but I’d rather go with a bit more certainty, especially as we are picking in top 6-7.

 

[jaffy27]

And none are forwards over 200 pounds (even if stamkos was available. He wasn’t).

Another good argument that talent should be the priority, tho. Thanks.

If you are certain that Catton can develop into those type of players then by all means, draft them. I’m not sure he can but you never know.

Catton is good, I just have other players who are just as good ahead of him., and yes, size does factor in my decision.

 

[WeThreeKings]

For the record, obviously you go Celebrini, Demidov and Lindstrom over Catton. If someone tells me they like Tij more than Catton, I got no issues with that.

Beyond that though, there's not many arguments against Catton. If you prefer the one elite trait in Eiserman's shot, sure, but you can't use height and weight against Catton in that argument, since Eiserman is the softest most perimeter player in the top 10. Catton wipes the floor with him in those departments.

If you prefer the floor of Helenius and the projectability because he played in the Liiga, sure, but then you can't use offensive upside against Catton because tool for tool, I can't think of one that Helenius is better at.

So those other arguments that come up trying to discredit Catton as a potential pick of the Habs if the other options are gone, they're just weak.

Long story short, there's no way they are completely discrediting Catton as an option dependent on the board. Where he fits in relation to the other forwards on their board, we don't know right now and may never know. But he's there and he's not discredited. Meetings don't mean much but you don't spend time meeting a guy who is completely off your board.

 

[le_sean]

Your original point was that these 3 (and others) weren’t good enough until they added more size.

Now it swings back to - “look at that HOF talent”. lol

So, we’re in agreement. Talent is the top priority.

No because look at the Leafs. Their talent is soft as shit and they keep losing. I’d rather pick someone that has talent and grit, like Iginla.

But sure if we had a 6’6 HOF defenceman, a HOF goalie, a 6’1 HOF goal scoring centre, a HOF 140 point winger, then we could add Catton to be Point. But we have zero of that.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

So true!!

Again half of the best players in NHL history were or are undersized and you know what...they delivered in the playoffs!
Let.s see:

Rocket
Dionne
Crosby
Yzerman
Sakic
Patrick Kane
Bedard
St-Louis
Theoren Fleury
Point
Kucherov
Trottier
Naslund

....Gretzky

There is plenty others...and all of those guys are either sub 6.0 or less than 200 pounds and a lot of them both.

Gretzky were 6.0 but 170 pounds for godsake..he had the shape of Gilles Latulippe....

Same with Pat Kane..170...

But when you have the IQ...size does not mean s...

Those guys had the will all their life to perform because they were kind small and they succeed!!

Catton has the IQ and the vision and he will play his career at 5.11 and maybe 175 to 185 pounds and you will see....it will be enough...

When you look at that list above....those guys were healthy all their career except of Crosby and guys like Lemieux, Lindros, Dach etc were injury prone

I would not be shock to see Catton with a better production at his prime than Suzuki or even Slaf

To be fair, Richard at 5'10 was one of the bigger players on the team then. At the time Richard played, people were generally a bit smaller.

If Catton has the skill then I'm fine.

I'm just pissed if once again the Habs have a draft where they pick 1 forward over 6'.

Catton's size at 5'10/11 is fine.

Everyone can agree that you definitely need size on your team and the Habs aren't drafting it and it coats a lot to acquire.

 

[Jaynki]

And none are forwards over 200 pounds (even if stamkos was available. He wasn’t).

Another good argument that talent should be the priority, tho. Thanks.

Yes but they still had big teams when they won.

So when looking at a player singularly, size is just another attributes.

But its important in a team building concept.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

For the record, obviously you go Celebrini, Demidov and Lindstrom over Catton. If someone tells me they like Tij more than Catton, I got no issues with that.

Beyond that though, there's not many arguments against Catton. If you prefer the one elite trait in Eiserman's shot, sure, but you can't use height and weight against Catton in that argument, since Eiserman is the softest most perimeter player in the top 10. Catton wipes the floor with him in those departments.

If you prefer the floor of Helenius and the projectability because he played in the Liiga, sure, but then you can't use offensive upside against Catton because tool for tool, I can't think of one that Helenius is better at.

So those other arguments that come up trying to discredit Catton as a potential pick of the Habs if the other options are gone, they're just weak.

Long story short, there's no way they are completely discrediting Catton as an option dependent on the board. Where he fits in relation to the other forwards on their board, we don't know right now and may never know. But he's there and he's not discredited. Meetings don't mean much but you don't spend time meeting a guy who is completely off your board.

I'd say the obviously on Lindstrom over Catton is in dispute since we don't know the extent of his back issues