2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[MJL66]

Yes indeed. You can arguably include Frost, too, considering what they traded in order to select him.

I'm conflicted on how to define Gauthier. Because he did become a top prospect. But they missed on his personality. I guess it will depend on how Drysdale and the 2nd turn out.

There is no credible reason to say that they missed on his personality.

 

[deadhead]

Criticism? You mean words? Tippett in his Flyers career has been horrendous away from the puck. When was he ever scratched for it? You listen to all of Totorella's pressers? Why on earth would anyone do that?

Because he's intelligent, thoughtful, candid and funny.

Torts knows what Tippett is and isn't, he's honest about TK's style of play and his mistakes, but they produce enough that he accepts that's the cost of letting them play their style of hockey. Tippett has 12 ES goals, that's 23rd in the NHL. That's called "production."

He's pushed some players to be more aggressive on offense, Cates, York, and others to be more responsible on defense. He's said Drysdale will never be a great defender, he wants him to play "rover" and be more aware on offense and make things happen.

With Farabee, Trots was clear that it wasn't putative, their metrics showed he was playing well, just not getting puck luck, but frustration set in and his play slipped, Torts wanted to give him a little time off to clear his head and to take a look at Lycksell.

He's clear he's more concerned about how they're playing than wins or losses, if they play the right way, the wins will come. "Trust the Process."

 

[FLYguy3911]

Oh, so you think Bob McKenzie is lying now when he surveys scouts? OK. Great rebuttal.

1) You turned, 'he wouldn't go over the top four guys from the last draft', into he wouldn't go until the 7th overall range.

2) Even if these anonymous quotes are gospel, what exactly is your point? Where do you think late birthday Cale Makar goes in the 2016 Draft according to these "scouts"? Ryan Poehling got mentioned in the article while the two guys (not one obviously) the scouts pushed for before being overruled by our dictator are conspicuously absent. Hell Pettersson isn't even mentioned either. Certainly doesn't seem like missing on a top pick in a weak draft, according to these guys, should be all that crippling for a franchise.

3) No one was more excited than you to draft Nolan Patrick! Why would you be so excited to add a guy that was inferior to so many prospects in his age group? Anonymous scouts said he wasn't that good.

 

[freakydallas13]

And taken zero action against them. You always tell us his words don't matter, after all. I believe you. So I'm only paying attention to what he actually does.

Lip service criticisms and actual rosters punishments are very different, and it's clear Torts has favourites when it comes to ice-times and benchings (Frost/Tippet is the perfect example of this). Tippet plays like dog water regularly and makes boneheaded mistakes all the time but never misses a shift.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes indeed. You can arguably include Frost, too, considering what they traded in order to select him.

I'm conflicted on how to define Gauthier. Because he did become a top prospect. But they missed on his personality. I guess it will depend on how Drysdale and the 2nd turn out.

Making Schenn into Frost and Farabee is a win. It's not fault of the players the Flyers have done everything in their power to trash their development and ceiling.

So they took a good move, and have labored vigorously to make it into a loss. That's Flyers Hockey alright. Same vein: if they'd traded Seeler at peak value that would have been a management coup, taking nothing and making it something. Instead we are stuck with a declining dman after overpaying his peak, and blocking Andrae. Should have been an easy win and they've made it a loss.

 

[freakydallas13]

Because he's intelligent, thoughtful, candid and funny.

Torts knows what Tippett is and isn't, he's honest about TK's style of play and his mistakes, but they produce enough that he accepts that's the cost of letting them play their style of hockey. Tippett has 12 ES goals, that's 23rd in the NHL. That's called "production."

He's pushed some players to be more aggressive on offense, Cates, York, and others to be more responsible on defense. He's said Drysdale will never be a great defender, he wants him to play "rover" and be more aware on offense and make things happen.

With Farabee, Trots was clear that it wasn't putative, their metrics showed he was playing well, just not getting puck luck, but frustration set in and his play slipped, Torts wanted to give him a little time off to clear his head and to take a look at Lycksell.

He's clear he's more concerned about how they're playing than wins or losses, if they play the right way, the wins will come. "Trust the Process."

Tippet is producing the exact same PTS/60 as Frost (2.2), so saying Tippet doesn't get punished because of his production is horseshit.

Frost makes 1/3 as much as Tippet. He's better at defence. And he produces at the same rate. But Frost gets punished for poor play and Tippet gets a free ride?

Horse. Shit. Torts plays favourites.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Consensus does not mean unanimous. Nor does an entire org make a homogenous decision. You can pull quotes like this from every single draft cycle.

One NHL GM summed up the duality of the debate best of all: “Our scouts have Hughes first. I like Kakko.”

 

[deadhead]

Consensus does not mean unanimous. Nor does an entire org make a homogenous decision. You can pull quotes like this from every single draft cycle.

For better or worse, GMs are going to trust themselves over scouts when it comes to top picks.
Because the GM is more likely to get fired over a wrong pick than the scouts (who can hide behind group think).
Especially if it's a pick in the top 20 or so, where a GM has time to look at film and make his own decision.

Later in the draft scouts rule, b/c even the scouting head can't look at film on 300 players, much less attend their games, etc. Good scouts do more than go to games, the best go to local bars, etc., gather scuttlebutt b/c players' coaches lie about players (getting players drafted helps recruiting, and screwing your own players will not make you popular).

 

[freakydallas13]

Consensus does not mean unanimous. Nor does an entire org make a homogenous decision. You can pull quotes like this from every single draft cycle.

I mean you ask a group of people if we landed on the moon, what percentage is going to say no? ~5% of any given group of people will disagree with pretty much anything, no matter how stupid it is. Maybe even more than 5%.

Saying there was no consensus is hilarious. I posted a dozen different outlets that all had Patrick 1 or 2 OA. But a single source saying he wasn't worthy of second overall (but still a no brainer at 4th overall) means there wasn't a consensus? Laughably pathetic hindsight framing.

For better or worse, GMs are going to trust themselves over scouts when it comes to top picks.
Because the GM is more likely to get fired over a wrong pick than the scouts (who can hide behind group think).
Especially if it's a pick in the top 20 or so, where a GM has time to look at film and make his own decision.

Later in the draft scouts rule, b/c even the scouting head can't look at film on 300 players, much less attend their games, etc. Good scouts do more than go to games, the best go to local bars, etc., gather scuttlebutt b/c players' coaches lie about players (getting players drafted helps recruiting, and screwing your own players will not make you popular).

This entire post is a non-sequitur to what Jojo posted.

 

[ajgoal]

I mean you ask a group of people if we landed on the moon, what percentage is going to say no?

All the ones that know the truth.

 

[flyersnorth]

Yeah that's why Patrick busting is a big deal. Really the only reason anyone is still targeting it this severely this long afterwards. They screwed up a ton of other stuff, and since 2018 have screwed up almost everything they've touched. Patrick happens to be high profile so it gets more attention than all the other disasters, all of which I was told don't matter and don't add up. Seems they do!

If they turn in even an average management performance it doesn't matter now. It's forgotten except as trivia.

Some people don't want to admit that this management group has sucked the goat's ass empty for 7 years though. So they pin it all on this one single occurrence from our youth. And it's weird.

I remember feeling that everything Fletcher touched turned to sh!t. The Ellis deal should have been a win, but we know how that turned out. Failing to move JVR who was still able to find two other teams to give him contracts.

Drafting was mostly ok. The Giroux trade (outcome) is decent.

But, yeah, in the end, having the #2, #5, and #7 picks in the draft, and having none of those players on the team, really sets back any sense of rebuilding a franchise.

Add a sexual assault charge to the franchise goalie.

How many of our recent-ish draft picks have clearly exceeded expectations relative to draft position?

TK. Cates. Sanheim. Lindblom.

That's the list.

I wish Briere took more swings in the market too - like going harder after Necas as was reported in the offseason. Or Askarov.

Maybe that's still to come.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

1) You turned, 'he wouldn't go over the top four guys from the last draft', into he wouldn't go until the 7th overall range.

2) Even if these anonymous quotes are gospel, what exactly is your point? Where do you think late birthday Cale Makar goes in the 2016 Draft according to these "scouts"? Ryan Poehling got mentioned in the article while the two guys (not one obviously) the scouts pushed for before being overruled by our dictator are conspicuously absent. Hell Pettersson isn't even mentioned either. Certainly doesn't seem like missing on a top pick in a weak draft, according to these guys, should be all that crippling for a franchise.

3) No one was more excited than you to draft Nolan Patrick! Why would you be so excited to add a guy that was inferior to so many prospects in his age group? Anonymous scouts said he wasn't that good.

I'll never be able to find the one-off scout quote I read years ago who said Patrick would've ranked roughly around 7 if he were eligible for the 2016 draft that he missed by 4 days, but I sure found an article that supports it with McKenzie, whose scout survey said he'd go somewhere between 5-10. 5-10 range isn't roughly around 7???

Maybe Patrick was a better prospect than Dubois according to you, but he wasn't according to the scouts in McKenzie's survey. And I've never heard McKenzie accused of taking a fraudulent scout survey.

The POINT is that you accused me of lying, "spewing horseshit," and got caught.

As I've said numerous times in this thread, damn right I was excited about Patrick when the Flyers drafted him. Yes I had him as the #2 player in the draft. Yes I got caught up in the hype that for a long time had him ranked #1.

So what? What does that have to do with anything? Was I employed full-time by the Flyers to scout and investigate these guys and make the right pick for a billion dollar organization? Did I have access to his medical records and character concerns? You've never been wrong on a prospect before?

My opinion as a fan at the time is completely irrelevant to the fact that the Flyers made a mistake, especially considering the scouts who ARE paid by the Flyers full time to evaluate these guys ranked both Makar and Heiskanen over Patrick, and Hextall overruled them.

 

[flyersnorth]

Yes indeed. You can arguably include Frost, too, considering what they traded in order to select him.

I'm conflicted on how to define Gauthier. Because he did become a top prospect. But they missed on his personality. I guess it will depend on how Drysdale and the 2nd turn out.

I'd say Frost is playing at about his draft position. He's better than the four guys after him at the bottom of the 1st round. Only Jason Robertson in the 2nd is a clear cut stud... the rest is all meh.

They also got Farabee in the move, so the two combined.... is that better than Schenn by himself?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'd say Frost is playing at about his draft position. He's better than the four guys after him at the bottom of the 1st round. Only Jason Robertson in the 2nd is a clear cut stud... the rest is all meh.

They also got Farabee in the move, so the two combined.... is that better than Schenn by himself?

Frost is definitely outplaying his draft position

 

[MJL66]

Because he's intelligent, thoughtful, candid and funny.

Torts knows what Tippett is and isn't, he's honest about TK's style of play and his mistakes, but they produce enough that he accepts that's the cost of letting them play their style of hockey. Tippett has 12 ES goals, that's 23rd in the NHL. That's called "production."

He's pushed some players to be more aggressive on offense, Cates, York, and others to be more responsible on defense. He's said Drysdale will never be a great defender, he wants him to play "rover" and be more aware on offense and make things happen.

With Farabee, Trots was clear that it wasn't putative, their metrics showed he was playing well, just not getting puck luck, but frustration set in and his play slipped, Torts wanted to give him a little time off to clear his head and to take a look at Lycksell.

He's clear he's more concerned about how they're playing than wins or losses, if they play the right way, the wins will come. "Trust the Process."

LMAO. Tortorella is a manipulator, he is incredibly disingenuous and a complete BS artist

He knows what Tippet is but he doesn't know what Frost is? Or any other player? That's nonsense on your part.

Tippett's production wasn't ever and is not enough to give him a pass for Tortorella's "non-negotiable" rules and his poor play away from the puck. P/60, Tippett ranks 9th on the team. There is no way he should have immunity from Tortorella's wrath. It just shows his inconsistency and bias to an extreme.

 

[ponder719]

I mean you ask a group of people if we landed on the moon, what percentage is going to say no? ~5% of any given group of people will disagree with pretty much anything, no matter how stupid it is. Maybe even more than 5%.

No they won't.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I'd say Frost is playing at about his draft position. He's better than the four guys after him at the bottom of the 1st round. Only Jason Robertson in the 2nd is a clear cut stud... the rest is all meh.

They also got Farabee in the move, so the two combined.... is that better than Schenn by himself?

They also had to take on Lehtera's contract.

I'd say for a team that went 42-26-14 the season after the Schenn trade,

had a 29-year-old Giroux and a 28-year-old Voracek still at the end of their primes;

a 24-year-old Couturier at his peak;

a 24-year-old Ghost who had his best regular season;

a 20-year-old Provorov who had his best season;

a 29-year-old Simmonds still at the end of his prime;

a 20-yr-old Konecny who scored 24 goals.......

Hell yeah it was a mistake to remove a 26-year-old peak Brayden Schenn from that group! Schenn scored 70 points in 82 games for the Blues that season. And then the following season won the Cup with the Blues.

And all the Flyers got out of it is Morgan Frost and Joel Farabee? And taking on Lehtera's contract? Bad deal.

Now if Hextall had taken Jason Robertson, different story. But based on Hexy's quotes at the time, he made that trade because he was enamored with Morgan Frost.

 

[dragonoffrost]

How do you know it had zero impact on his hockey career before the draft?

Have you talked to his doctors? Have you talked to Patrick? Have you talked to his coaches?

If he missed games because of migraines, then I'd say that's consequential. If he struggled in games because of migraines, I'd say that's consequential. Wouldn't you?

Now I don't know the intimate details of his migraine history, either, other than it later came out that he had them since he was a child, had them in junior, had a family history of migraines, and ultimately missed a season in the NHL because of them.

But I didn't know he had recurring migraines since he was a child at the time of the draft, which, again, is the whole reason I brought it up -- there are a lot of details about prospects that fans are unaware of.

And if the Flyers knew about it, considered it a risk, and still took him #2 what does that say about their processes?

 

[deadhead]

All the ones that know the truth.

The ones that think birds are AI robots?

 

[Beef Invictus]

And if the Flyers knew about it, considered it a risk, and still took him #2 what does that say about their processes?

Which are unchanged

 

[ajgoal]

The ones that think birds are AI robots?

Are dumb.

Everyone knows they're drones. @Striiker

 

[Ghosts Beer]

And if the Flyers knew about it, considered it a risk, and still took him #2 what does that say about their processes?

I would agree. By multiple accounts, it was Hextall who overruled his scouts to take Patrick.

 

[deadhead]

Who cares about what they did under Hextall at this point, other than to dispel the myth that he was on the right track and the PTB stopped him. He screwed up the rebuild, Fletcher screwed up the "reload," and it's all history now.

 

[freakydallas13]

I'll never be able to find the one-off scout quote I read years ago who said Patrick would've ranked roughly around 7 if he were eligible for the 2016 draft that he missed by 4 days, but I sure found an article that supports it with McKenzie, whose scout survey said he'd go somewhere between 5-10. 5-10 range isn't roughly around 7???

Maybe Patrick was a better prospect than Dubois according to you, but he wasn't according to the scouts in McKenzie's survey. And I've never heard McKenzie accused of taking a fraudulent scout survey.

This is from June 2017:

 

[dragonoffrost]

Who cares about what they did under Hextall at this point, other than to dispel the myth that he was on the right track and the PTB stopped him. He screwed up the rebuild, Fletcher screwed up the "reload," and it's all history now.

It matters when the processes are still flawed because the seats except coach and GM rarely changed....

I would agree. By multiple accounts, it was Hextall who overruled his scouts to take Patrick.

Multiple account using sources inside the organization which didn't change much besides coaches and GM and still can't get out of their way.

Sounds like they fired the wrong guys because of flawed processes that were allowed to continue are still keeping this team in purgatory