2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[Svedu]

Are you guys against a franchise of picking up European late bloomers or actually very good players for the fourth line and bottom 6 pairing?
A bit like Canes, Dallas and perhaps even Avalanche have done at times.

One player I've always thought could be better for the Flyers than say Ristolainen, or just plain good for the teams bottom pairing is Robin Salo.
Then are players like Janne Kuokkanen.
Markus Nurmi as another potential fourth liner. Especially for a weaker roster in the NHL.
Vesalainen could be one worthy of a tryout next summer. Turkulainens numbers last years have been quite impressive. Always produced for a weak JYP.
Julius Nättinen.

Oscar Flynn. Michal Kunc. Viktor Lodin. Filip Hållander. Josh Samanski. Leon Huttl. Dominik Bokk. Stachowiak.

 

[Curufinwe]

I loved what Raffl brought. But that was when we had Giroux and Voracek to carry the offense, and an actually good PP: 20% and 7th best in the NHL between 11-12 and 2021.

Since then it's dead last at 14.2%.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Nah. No. You've been linked this dozens of times since it started. Your willful chosen ignorance is yours to fix. I will not spend a second of extra effort doing something you'll contort your brain to ignore like you always do.

The only reason we know why the Flyers not extending him was the problem was because his camp told the media. That's the entire reason. So go read any story, really.

I haven't been linked to anything ONCE that shows Cutter's camp explaining why he refused to sign with the Flyers.

Let alone with the specificity that the Flyers broke a promise to him.

You said this is "basic information" and my lack of knowing this shows I lack a "grasp of the facts."

But you won't provide any sourcing because there isn't any.

There has been nothing but speculation regarding why Cutter demanded a trade, and his camp sure has never given a firm explanation.

If you had a source, you'd show it. I searched this forum and the internet and found nothing.

You made it up and got caught. And made it up with the audacity to call it "basic information" and a "fact."

Par for the course.

 

[deadhead]

Exactly. I say this all the time. If an org has a cohesive, winning idea, and their decisions predicate on that paradigm...that's all I ask for. Things that make sense. If you swing and miss on a smaller, toolsy player who just doesn't pan out? So be it. Everything can't hit. This isn't limited to just drafting, either. FA signings, trades, development... anything. Look at the Phillies and pitching. Do you have a plus out pitch? High rpm fastball? Plus velo? Thanks we'll take a flyer. You can have Jeff Hoffman or Kerkering or Jose Ruiz or Gregory Soto or Yunior Marte. But you give yourself, at the very least, a chance

Just make sense under the winning model of the league. The Flyers NEVER do that. They draft poorly with emphasis on non-winning qualities, they concentrate on "fixing" players' weaknesses instead of building their strengths, they don't sell high, they hand out myopic contracts....it's all losing. And not only is it all losing, but it's not cohesive. These guys SUUUUUPER suck at building a roster

But what is the winning model? A number of different approaches have succeeded.
Vegas is the biggest team, with an emphasis on shot blocking. Does that fit your "model?"

The idea the current Flyers are pursuing some archaic model from the 1970s is nonsense.
They now have above average speed, and are scoring at a high rate 5x5.
Their problems are STs and goaltending, not base talent.

2023-24: Florida, 13th in 5x5 GF, 5th in xGF%, +11 net STs, (GA - xGA): -28
2022-23: Vegas, 7th in 5x5 GF, 16th in xGF%, +4 net STs, (GA - xGA): -14
2021-22: Colorado, 5th in 5x5 GF, 11th in xGF%, +20 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2
2020-21: Tampa Bay, 12th in 5x5 GF, 9th in xGF%, +11 net STs, (GA - xGA): +10
2019-20: Tampa Bay, 1st in 5x5 GF, 1st in xGF%, +5 net STs, (GA - xGA): +9
2018-19: St Louis, 13th in 5x5 GF, 6th in xGF%, +5 net STs, (GA - xGA): +3
2017-18: Washington, 6th in 5x5 GF, 26th in xGF%, -2 net STs, (GA - xGA): -18
2016-17: Pittsburgh, 3rd in 5x5 GF, 4th in xGF%, +6 net STs, (GA - xGA): +20
2015-16: Pittsburgh, 3rd in 5x5 GF, 1st in xGF%, +14 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2
2014-15: Chicago, 13th in 5x5 GF, 17th in xGF%, +7 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2

There is no one formula, a few top offensive teams, which also tend to be top possession teams, some good ST teams (top PP and/or PK), some carried by goalies.
Basically be a good team (top 10) and get hot in the playoffs.

Two keys, have a goalie get hot in the playoffs, and have a couple players who can raise their game a la Danny Briere in the post-season.

 

[Curufinwe]

Deslauriers should be bought out. The cap hit isn't a big deal, but you can't afford to carry a useless forward on the 23 man roster, especially if you have three goalies. His convenient injury can't last forever.

The Flyers would save $1m on the cap in 2025-26, and have a $500K penalty in 2026-27.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

My memory isn't the best, but I seem to recall some discussion surrounding Gauthier's decision to not sign with Philly was partially due to the inexperience of the new interim GM taking over when Fletcher was fired and he wasn't keen on the incompetency the front office displayed.

I might be totally off-base, and if so I apologize.

That was one of many rumors. It's all been speculation.

Even Friedman's report he says "I think," "I can't say 100%," "I don't want to speak for Gauthier," and, if I recall correctly, he even uses the word "speculation."

Cutter's camp has never provided an explanation, and the Flyers say they were never given an explanation, so all that's out there are rumors and speculation.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

But what is the winning model? A number of different approaches have succeeded.
Vegas is the biggest team, with an emphasis on shot blocking. Does that fit your "model?"

The idea the current Flyers are pursuing some archaic model from the 1970s is nonsense.
They now have above average speed, and are scoring at a high rate 5x5.
Their problems are STs and goaltending, not base talent.

2023-24: Florida, 13th in 5x5 GF, 5th in xGF%, +11 net STs, (GA - xGA): -28
2022-23: Vegas, 7th in 5x5 GF, 16th in xGF%, +4 net STs, (GA - xGA): -14
2021-22: Colorado, 5th in 5x5 GF, 11th in xGF%, +20 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2
2020-21: Tampa Bay, 12th in 5x5 GF, 9th in xGF%, +11 net STs, (GA - xGA): +10
2019-20: Tampa Bay, 1st in 5x5 GF, 1st in xGF%, +5 net STs, (GA - xGA): +9
2018-19: St Louis, 13th in 5x5 GF, 6th in xGF%, +5 net STs, (GA - xGA): +3
2017-18: Washington, 6th in 5x5 GF, 26th in xGF%, -2 net STs, (GA - xGA): -18
2016-17: Pittsburgh, 3rd in 5x5 GF, 4th in xGF%, +6 net STs, (GA - xGA): +20
2015-16: Pittsburgh, 3rd in 5x5 GF, 1st in xGF%, +14 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2
2014-15: Chicago, 13th in 5x5 GF, 17th in xGF%, +7 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2

There is no one formula, a few top offensive teams, which also tend to be top possession teams, some good ST teams (top PP and/or PK), some carried by goalies.
Basically be a good team (top 10) and get hot in the playoffs.

Two keys, have a goalie get hot in the playoffs, and have a couple players who can raise their game a la Danny Briere in the post-season.

It's not that I disagree in any way that all roads can work. My concern is that they've chosen a particularly difficult one and there are 2 or 3 front offices in all of hockey that I trust to execute a degree of difficulty that high.

Now if you're one of the people who are happy being the post-Roethlisberger's prime Steelers, I think you should be more optimistic than I am. They seem to understand enough to win a reasonable amount of NHL games and maybe make a Conference Final one year when the stars align. But they won't ever be a contender unless they execute like one of those 2-3 teams can at their best.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Crazy how the Flyers lost a top prospect because they felt their locker room was too terrible to expose him to it. And now they self proclaim they have the best locker room in the league.

One year Torts was the coach and they finished 26th. This year Torts is the coach and they are 26th. But the locker room went from 32nd to 1st!

I'm curious what exactly they did to change it since it's almost all the same people.

After all this time building their culture, they've failed miserably. I wonder why the people who defended this aren't all shouting for them to be fired?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I haven't been linked to anything ONCE that shows Cutter's camp explaining why he refused to sign with the Flyers.

Let alone with the specificity that the Flyers broke a promise to him.

You said this is "basic information" and my lack of knowing this shows I lack a "grasp of the facts."

But you won't provide any sourcing because there isn't any.

There has been nothing but speculation regarding why Cutter demanded a trade, and his camp sure has never given a firm explanation.

If you had a source, you'd show it. I searched this forum and the internet and found nothing.

You made it up and got caught. And made it up with the audacity to call it "basic information" and a "fact."

Par for the course.

Ah there it is. A reporter using his camp as a source doesn't matter. You require a statement directly from him and his people. You've established a standard that won't be met so you can continue worshipping a Flyers management group you value more than the good of the team.

Thank you so much for confirming I would have been wasting my time.

 

[Beef Invictus]

But what is the winning model? A number of different approaches have succeeded.
Vegas is the biggest team, with an emphasis on shot blocking. Does that fit your "model?"

The idea the current Flyers are pursuing some archaic model from the 1970s is nonsense.
They now have above average speed, and are scoring at a high rate 5x5.
Their problems are STs and goaltending, not base talent.

2023-24: Florida, 13th in 5x5 GF, 5th in xGF%, +11 net STs, (GA - xGA): -28
2022-23: Vegas, 7th in 5x5 GF, 16th in xGF%, +4 net STs, (GA - xGA): -14
2021-22: Colorado, 5th in 5x5 GF, 11th in xGF%, +20 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2
2020-21: Tampa Bay, 12th in 5x5 GF, 9th in xGF%, +11 net STs, (GA - xGA): +10
2019-20: Tampa Bay, 1st in 5x5 GF, 1st in xGF%, +5 net STs, (GA - xGA): +9
2018-19: St Louis, 13th in 5x5 GF, 6th in xGF%, +5 net STs, (GA - xGA): +3
2017-18: Washington, 6th in 5x5 GF, 26th in xGF%, -2 net STs, (GA - xGA): -18
2016-17: Pittsburgh, 3rd in 5x5 GF, 4th in xGF%, +6 net STs, (GA - xGA): +20
2015-16: Pittsburgh, 3rd in 5x5 GF, 1st in xGF%, +14 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2
2014-15: Chicago, 13th in 5x5 GF, 17th in xGF%, +7 net STs, (GA - xGA): -2

There is no one formula, a few top offensive teams, which also tend to be top possession teams, some good ST teams (top PP and/or PK), some carried by goalies.
Basically be a good team (top 10) and get hot in the playoffs.

Two keys, have a goalie get hot in the playoffs, and have a couple players who can raise their game a la Danny Briere in the post-season

They abhor offense, skill, and creativity dude.


There are many formulas. The one the Flyers are using always fails and always will, regardless of era. No team has ever won this way and in our lifetimes we will never see it happen.

 

[Cody Webster]

It's only speculation when it doesn't fit my narrative, but if it does fit my narrative, it's a fact, jack

 

[deadhead]

Are you guys against a franchise of picking up European late bloomers or actually very good players for the fourth line and bottom 6 pairing?
A bit like Canes, Dallas and perhaps even Avalanche have done at times.

One player I've always thought could be better for the Flyers than say Ristolainen, or just plain good for the teams bottom pairing is Robin Salo.
Then are players like Janne Kuokkanen.
Markus Nurmi as another potential fourth liner. Especially for a weaker roster in the NHL.
Vesalainen could be one worthy of a tryout next summer. Turkulainens numbers last years have been quite impressive. Always produced for a weak JYP.
Julius Nättinen.

Oscar Flynn. Michal Kunc. Viktor Lodin. Filip Hållander. Josh Samanski. Leon Huttl. Dominik Bokk. Stachowiak.

Flyers have improved their European scouting, so we'll see.
They did bring over Abols who has an outside shot.
Two issues, there is an adjustment period for most Euro leagues, and a lot of better Euro veterans make enough money that they're happy to stay.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This took a fraction of a second to find.

The Sporting Tribune

thesportingtribune.com

"The Flyers are incompetent and I didn't want to tie my career to that" is both non-specific and very specific.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Ah there it is. A reporter using his camp as a source doesn't matter. You require a statement directly from him and his people. You've established a standard that won't be met so you can continue worshipping a Flyers management group you value more than the good of the team.

Thank you so much for confirming I would have been wasting my time.

LOL. Nice try to save face.

Cutter's camp has said nothing.

Friedman's report was, by his own admission, speculation, not "fact" or "basic information," and he didn't provide any sourcing.

Per usual, you provided a complete misrepresentation. Oh, and of course tried mocking someone else in the process when it was you who had the situation wrong.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

This took a fraction of a second to find.

The Sporting Tribune

thesportingtribune.com

"The Flyers are incompetent and I didn't want to tie my career to that" is both non-specific and very specific.

Oh, so you made up a quote that isn't in the article.

That's called fabrication and will get you thrown out of colleges. Nice job digging a deeper hole. You really can't help yourself when it comes to dishonesty and misrepresentation.

Here's an ACTUAL quote by Cutter from the article:

“It’s been a long process and a handful of months dealing with this and I don’t think it’s the right time to kind of discuss it,” said Gauthier. “There might be one day where I kind of get into the details of what happened. Right now, I kind of want to keep it to a private matter.”

 

[deadhead]

This took a fraction of a second to find.

The Sporting Tribune

thesportingtribune.com

"The Flyers are incompetent and I didn't want to tie my career to that" is both non-specific and very specific.

That's not what he said, you have a habit of inventing things when direct quotes are easier and more accurate:

“All those rumors saying I was scared of Torts, that’s not the case at all,” . . . I actually met Torts during dev camp two years back. I was super excited and thrilled to meet him and obviously being a big name in hockey and the coaching staff industry, definitely was not against playing for him whatsoever.”

“It wasn’t one specific reason why I asked for a trade,” said Gauthier. “It was multiple, re-occurring issues that I’d seen over the past year and a half, two years of being under the Flyers organization. It kind of hit me all at once, thinking ‘I can’t move forward with this’ and ‘I really need to step up for myself and see what’s best for my future’ and that’s what I did.”

As for the trade itself, Gauthier is excited to be an Anaheim Duck.
Gauthier isn’t very familiar with any of the current Ducks roster, although he’s spoken to both Troy Terry and Leo Carlsson already.


In other words, very vague, excited to be on a team he admits he knows nothing about.
And what exactly could he have seen in one development camp, which is all the time he spent around the Flyer organization? Other than what Kevin Hayes told him?

 

[MJL66]

They abhor offense, skill, and creativity dude.


There are many formulas. The one the Flyers are using always fails and always will, regardless of era. No team has ever won this way and in our lifetimes we will never see it happen.

He doesn't understand that how the Flyers are accomplishing those numbers matters. He doesn't understand that the Flyers wouldn't be putting up those numbers against the better teams in the league in a playoff scenario. He doesn't understand what Tortorella's systems do. How they stifle offense and play in a style and manner that just helps a team compete. Which is why a Tortorella coached team has only gotten past the 2nd round of the playoffs once in the last 20 years. He doesn't understand that Sanheim and York wouldn't be playing like a top defense pairing against the top teams in the league in a playoff setting. He thinks that if the Flyers add a couple of decent starters and a good goalie, they're a top 8 team in the league.

 

[Beef Invictus]

LOL. Nice try to save face.

Cutter's camp has said nothing.

Friedman's report was, by his own admission, speculation, not "fact" or "basic information," and he didn't provide any sourcing.

Per usual, you provided a complete misrepresentation. Oh, and of course tried mocking someone else in the process when it was you who had the situation wrong.

They've talked to the media. But you're refusing to accept that because it doesn't work for your authority worship.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He doesn't understand that how the Flyers are accomplishing those numbers matters. He doesn't understand that the Flyers wouldn't be putting up those numbers against the better teams in the league in a playoff scenario. He doesn't understand what Tortorella's systems do. How they stifle offense and play in a style and manner that just helps a team compete. Which is why a Tortorella coached team has only gotten past the 2nd round of the playoffs once in the last 20 years. He doesn't understand that Sanheim and York wouldn't be playing like a top defense pairing against the top teams in the league in a playoff setting. He thinks that if the Flyers add a couple of decent starters and a good goalie, they're a top 8 team in the league.

They're good against bad teams and awful against good teams.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That's not what he said, you have a habit of inventing things when direct quotes are easier and more accurate:

“All those rumors saying I was scared of Torts, that’s not the case at all,” . . . I actually met Torts during dev camp two years back. I was super excited and thrilled to meet him and obviously being a big name in hockey and the coaching staff industry, definitely was not against playing for him whatsoever.”

“It wasn’t one specific reason why I asked for a trade,” said Gauthier. “It was multiple, re-occurring issues that I’d seen over the past year and a half, two years of being under the Flyers organization. It kind of hit me all at once, thinking ‘I can’t move forward with this’ and ‘I really need to step up for myself and see what’s best for my future’ and that’s what I did.”

As for the trade itself, Gauthier is excited to be an Anaheim Duck.
Gauthier isn’t very familiar with any of the current Ducks roster, although he’s spoken to both Troy Terry and Leo Carlsson already.


In other words, very vague, excited to be on a team he admits he knows nothing about.
And what exactly could he have seen in one development camp, which is all the time he spent around the Flyer organization? Other than what Kevin Hayes told him?

That's exactly what he said. It's right there. Lots of things. You think he was driven away by competency? Of course he means the numerous cases of incompetence he saw and it's a wild case of delusion to think anything else.

You just don't want to admit all those things you said didn't matter ended up mattering.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Oh, so you made up a quote that isn't in the article.

That's called fabrication and will get you thrown out of colleges. Nice job digging a deeper hole. You really can't help yourself when it comes to dishonesty and misrepresentation.

Here's an ACTUAL quote by Cutter from the article:

“It’s been a long process and a handful of months dealing with this and I don’t think it’s the right time to kind of discuss it,” said Gauthier. “There might be one day where I kind of get into the details of what happened. Right now, I kind of want to keep it to a private matter.”

I didn't say it was a direct quote. How have you never heard of paraphrasing? It's a basic language concept. Are you doing the thing where you pretend you don't understand 3rd grade concepts because that's what defense of the Flyers requires?

Do you also believe he saw all these various things and said "wow this is all very competent I've gotta get out."

Or do you suppose it was what actually happened, which was that he saw them screwing up nonstop, including with him directly?

 

[Beef Invictus]

That quote from Cutter is actually way more damning than the idea that it was just their handling of his signing that had him bail. It wasn't just his personal experience. He saw how they were running the whole operation and what directions they were going and got spooked.

No wonder y'all want to discredit it.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

They've talked to the media. But you're refusing to accept that because it doesn't work for your authority worship.

Dude, you just got caught red-handed fabricating a quote that isn't in the article you cited

Complete dishonesty

Just like you ALWAYS misrepresent what others have said and claim they said things they didn't

You asserted that Cutter's camp has provided a specific explanation for why he refused to sign (a broken promise), and that it was "basic information"

And then could provide zero examples of this. Because there aren't any.

All you could do was fabricate a quote from an article where Cutter clearly says he may talk about it one day, but wants to keep it a private matter for now

And refer to an Elliotte Friedman report where he is speculating and says "I think" "I can't say 100%" "I can't speak for Gauthier" and provides no sourcing

So it is you who doesn't have a basic "grasp of the facts"

And fabricated and misrepresented a bunch of crap in the process in an effort to save face

You should probably sit this out and quit digging yourself a bigger hole

But thank you for shining bright glaring lights on my point that you are the most dishonest poster on this board

 

[Beef Invictus]

Dude, you just got caught red-handed fabricating a quote that isn't in the article you cited

Complete dishonesty

Just like you ALWAYS misrepresent what others have said and claim they said things they didn't

You asserted that Cutter's camp has provided a specific explanation for why he refused to sign (a broken promise), and that it was "basic information"

And then could provide zero examples of this. Because there aren't any.

All you could do was fabricate a quote from an article where Cutter clearly says he may talk about it one day, but wants to keep it a private matter for now

And refer to an Elliotte Friedman report where he is speculating and says "I think" "I can't say 100%" "I can't speak for Gauthier" and provides no sourcing

So it is you who doesn't have a basic "grasp of the facts"

And fabricated and misrepresented a bunch of crap in the process in an effort to save face

You should probably sit this out and quit digging yourself a bigger hole

But thank you for shining bright glaring lights on my point that you are the most dishonest poster on this board

Oh, you are actually pretending you don't understand what paraphrasing is. I never said I was directly quoting him. Youre a liar, who has to lie about me to defend the authorities running the Flyers. You are engaging in bad faith discussion because it is not possible to defend the Flyers in good faith.

Just like how you snagged a thread from 2020 and lied about it being relevant to a 2019 occurrence hoping nobody would notice. Just like you pretended that Giroux being traded in a dead season is relevant to the off-season to set up the next. All bad faith.

Do you have any honesty to offer, or no? So far it looks like no. Why do you defend the Flyers' every action when that's what is needed to do so?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Let's share this here to ensure everyone is on the same page with human language fundamentals:

https://quillbot.com/guides/paraphrasing